The Irreducible Complex System (Psa. 77:13)

[eternally-gratefull]

Can you please stick to the discussion. Jesus shed his blood at birth (umbilical), at circumcision (8th day), at Gethsemane (sweat), at the trials (crown and whips), and most especially at Calvary (crucified).

My sins were indeed paid for at Calvary. Not in question, not in doubt, not in contestation, not in argument. Please refrain from saying I said or intimate otherwise. I have said it several times now. Please go back to the question and topic asked - Heavenly Sanctuary and the irreducible complexity of it.

Been there done that.

The cross is your poiint of justification, Sanctification, and glorification.

You claim its not.

So how else am I supposed to take what you are saying.

Once again, Can you tell us HOW our future sin is forgiven? What sacrifice must we make?

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Leaving you with more verses about the original Heavenly Sanctuary that Moses saw:

David and Solomon, were given this "pattern" by the Holy Ghost/Spirit:

1 Chronicles 28:10 KJB - Take heed now; for the LORD hath chosen thee to build an house for the sanctuary: be strong, and do it.

1 Chronicles 28:11 KJB - Then David gave to Solomon his son the pattern of the porch, and of the houses thereof, and of the treasuries thereof, and of the upper chambers thereof, and of the inner parlours thereof, and of the place of the mercy seat,

1 Chronicles 28:12 KJB - And the pattern of all that he had by the spirit, of the courts of the house of the LORD, and of all the chambers round about, of the treasuries of the house of God, and of the treasuries of the dedicated things:

1 Chronicles 28:19 KJB - All this, said David, the LORD made me understand in writing by his hand upon me, even all the works of this pattern.

Asaph the Psalmist knew of the "pattern":

Psalms 77:13 KJB - Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?

Ezekiel was shown this "pattern":

Ezekiel 43:10 KJB - Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.

Ezekiel 43:11 KJB - And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

Ezekiel 43:12 KJB - This is the law of the house; Upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.

Paul, the writer of many epistles and of Hebrews, knew of this "pattern" and what was shown to Moses, and from where this "pattern" came from. It came from the True Tabernacle in Heaven!:

Ephesians 1:20 KJB - Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Hebrews 8:1 KJB - Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Hebrews 8:2 KJB - A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Hebrews 8:3 KJB - For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

Hebrews 8:4 KJB - For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

Hebrews 8:5 KJB - Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Hebrews 8:6 KJB - But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Hebrews 9:23 KJB - It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Hebrews 13:10 KJB - We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.

Daniel the Prophet knew of the "pattern", and even of the original!:

Daniel 8:11 KJB - Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Daniel 8:12 KJB - And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.

Daniel 8:13 KJB - Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?

Daniel 8:14 KJB - And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

Daniel 8:26 KJB - And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

Daniel 9:24 KJB - Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Daniel 11:31 KJB - And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

John the Apostle knew of this "pattern", and even saw the original!:

Revelation 1:12 KJB - And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

Revelation 1:13 KJB - And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

Revelation 3:7 KJB - And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

Revelation 3:8 KJB - I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Revelation 4:1 KJB - After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

Revelation 4:5 KJB - And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 9:13 KJB - And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

Revelation 11:1 KJB - And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

Revelation 11:19 KJB - And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Revelation 15:5 KJB - And after that I looked, and, behold, the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

Unfortunately not one of these verses suggests a heavenly temple copied in the earthly temple.
The hint about the earthly temple is it holds the ten commandments in the ark which apply to mankind
not heaven. And it is this covenant upon which Jesus is the cornerstone, its fulfilment.

And after judgement God will dwell with man in the new Jerusalem on the new earth.

And you missed the whole point I was making. The temple on earth is no more, it is the temple in
the believers that now exists. This is not anything like your construction or implication of an
eternal heavenly temple. So it might sound real, but nothing seems to stack up.
God bless you

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

Can you tell us HOW our future sin is forgiven?

All sin is forgiven by the blood sacrifice at Calvary.

Rom_3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

All my sins up to the point at which the offer of God the Father in Christ Jesus, by and through the Holy Ghost, are forgiven.

Yet, any sin committed after accepting Christ must be confessed, and so also forsaken:

1Jn_1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jn_2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if (*) any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

(* not 'when')

None of that is in question. Now, that I answer you, and you do not answer me, may be seen in the NT, between Christ Jesus and a certain group of persons.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

All sin is forgiven by the blood sacrifice at Calvary.

Rom_3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

All my sins up to the point at which the offer of God the Father in Christ Jesus, by and through the Holy Ghost, are forgiven.

Yet, any sin committed after accepting Christ must be confessed, and so also forsaken:

1Jn_1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

1Jn_2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if (*) any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

(* not 'when')

None of that is in question. Now, that I answer you, and you do not answer me, may be seen in the NT, between Christ Jesus and a certain group of persons.

Thats no different than saying people are under law.. Having to go to a priest.

Ddid you have to go to your dad to confess your sin before you could be forgiven, and if you did not. Did he threaten to kick you out of his family?

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

Unfortunately not one of these verses suggests a heavenly temple copied in the earthly temple.

Hebrews 8:1 KJB - Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Hebrews 8:2 KJB - A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.

Hebrews 8:3 KJB - For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

Hebrews 8:4 KJB - For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:

Hebrews 8:5 KJB - Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Hebrews 9:23 KJB - It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Jesus came to heal everyone who could not see (Luke 4; Isaiah 61), for God is no respecter of persons. He could not heal those who did not want to see.

Mat_13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

... I'm done for awhile banging my head against a wall.

They are simple questions brother PennEd.

There is an Heavenly original Sanctuary of which Moses made a copy of for earthly use, as shown to him by God

Who does not agree with this? Who agrees with this?"

How else are we to determine where the differences are between us, based upon the OP and subject at hand?

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

Thats no different than saying people are under law.. Having to go to a priest.

Ddid you have to go to your dad to confess your sin before you could be forgiven, and if you did not. Did he threaten to kick you out of his family?

What does this text say:

1Jn_1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

It's conditional. "If we confess our sins".

1Jn_2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

The "advocate" is our Great High Priest, who stands between us and the Father.

Heb_4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

I am not interested in non scriptural argument, for I am only interested in what the word (as cited) says (Isaiah 8:20).

For if you really desire to play the game of what my earthly dad, or others earthly dad's do, then you will find as many foundational rules to substitute for the one you think is right outside of scripture.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

What does this text say:

1Jn_1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

It's conditional. "If we confess our sins".

1Jn_2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

The "advocate" is our Great High Priest, who stands between us and the Father.

Heb_4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

I am not interested in non scriptural argument, for I am only interested in what the word (as cited) says (Isaiah 8:20).

For if you really desire to play the game of what my earthly dad, or others earthly dad's do, then you will find as many foundational rules to substitute for the one you think is right outside of scripture.

1. There is no way possible you can even know every sin you commit, let alone remember every sin
2. It says like it always says, State our sins or name them to God and each other. That we may find healing.
3. If our future sin is not forgiven already, we are NOT Justified. We are NOT able to be santified, and we will NEVER be glorified.

You claim your interested in what the word says, Yet you ignore pauls words when it says we have been perfected forever (perfect tense, a completed action) And i have not even gotten into john 3 - 6 or eph 1 yet..

You cannot have it both ways.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

They are simple questions brother PennEd.

There is an Heavenly original Sanctuary of which Moses made a copy of for earthly use, as shown to him by God

Who does not agree with this? Who agrees with this?"

How else are we to determine where the differences are between us, based upon the OP and subject at hand?

The heavenly sanctuary looks nothing like the earthly..

The earthly sanctuary was Gods means and place of relating to sinful man, Through sacrifice and the ark of the covenant.

The CROSS fulfilled that symbolic event.

 

[TulafonoESefulu]

The heavenly sanctuary

So you are agreeing that there is a real Heavenly Sanctuary?

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Thats no different than saying people are under law.. Having to go to a priest.

Ddid you have to go to your dad to confess your sin before you could be forgiven, and if you did not. Did he threaten to kick you out of his family?

Listen to God

19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in."
20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Rom 11

Those who take God for granted and stay in sin without repentance, will be broken off for their unbelief.
God will kick out children who sin and refuse to reconcile with Him.

It is difficult to be afraid is fear is thought of being a sin. In this world were fear is a sin,
Paul is asking believers to sin to be sure they stay as a branch in Gods vine.

No wonder believers can confused with this kind of teaching, spoken as if it is the only
way to see God, and to have another view is to be a liar and deceived.

So dear elect, listen to God, abide in the vine and respect His ways, repenting whenever you
stumble because He is forgiving and just and will forgive our sins if we come to Him in
repentance and faith, Amen.

 

[garee]

That is a contradiction.

You say it "all" happened ("fulfilled") at Calvary, and then turn around and say Pentecost in reality happened 50 days later.

The issues, is that God is the God of order, not of confusion. The Last 3 feasts are Fall, not Spring feasts. God does things in Season, as He ordained them.

Unleavened didn't happen at Calvary either, that was the following Day, the 7th day.
Firstfruits didn't happen at Calvary either, that was the day after Unleavened began, the 1st day.

If Jesus does not fulfill the feasts in their proper order, He is not the Messiah.

There is no text in scripture which states Jesus fulfilled those Last three feasts at Calvary, which would be out of order, out of Season, and not in accordance with the Sanctuary pattern He Himself gave to Moses.

The feasts as shadow pointed back to the actual work of the lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world. Not from the standpoint of the one demonstration of the unseen work .of the Father and Son working as one God ..From the foundation it was finished. The Son of man saying its finished demonstrated the actual work finishing it . To help us understand he informs us that which what the eyes sees the demonstration profits for nothing. other than a one time demonstration. God is not a man as us.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[DeighAnn]

The sinner was covered by this act. He was protected from wrath. Yet, the offender was still on probation, until such time as the sanctuary itself was cleansed, in the Day of Atonement, at which time, if the offender was true in their repentance, their sin was removed entirely altogether. If not, they were cut off from the camp of Israel forever, their debt reinstated, Lev 16 & 23.

Let's go back to square one. Begin from there, see who agrees with scripture, and continue at each step. The OP is based in the Sanctuary and the irreducible complexity thereof. Take one part away, and the whole becomes moot.

In the OT (Gen. to Mal.) God (even Jesus) showed to Moses the "pattern" of the Heavenly realities, so that Moses could make an earthly miniature copy, a type:

Exo_25:9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

Exo_25:40 And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.

Num_8:4 And this work of the candlestick was of beaten gold, unto the shaft thereof, unto the flowers thereof, was beaten work: according unto the pattern which the LORD had shewed Moses, so he made the candlestick.

Heb_8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

There is an Heavenly original Sanctuary of which Moses made a copy of for earthly use, as shown to him by God

Who does not agree with this? Who agrees with this?

I agree with this.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Lev 16: Now the Lord spoke to Moses after the death of the two sons of Aaron, when they offered profane fire before the Lord, and died; 2 and the Lord said to Moses: “Tell Aaron your brother not to come at just any time into the Holy Place inside the veil, before the mercy seat which is on the ark, lest he die; for I will appear in the cloud above the mercy seat.

3 [a]“Thus Aaron shall come into the Holy Place: with the blood of a young bull as a sin offering, and of a ram as a burnt offering. 4 He shall put the holy linen tunic and the linen trousers on his body; he shall be girded with a linen sash, and with the linen turban he shall be attired. These are holy garments. Therefore he shall wash his body in water, and put them on. 5 And he shall take from the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats as a sin offering, and one ram as a burnt offering.

6 “Aaron shall offer the bull as a sin offering, which is for himself, and make atonement for himself and for his house. 7 He shall take the two goats and present them before the Lord atthe door of the tabernacle of meeting. 8 Then Aaron shall cast lots for the two goats: one lot for the Lord and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat on which the Lord’s lot fell, and offer it as a sin offering. 10 But the goat on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make atonement upon it, and to let it go as the scapegoat into the wilderness.

11 “And Aaron shall bring the bull of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make atonement for himself and for his house, and shall kill the bull as the sin offering which is for himself. 12 Then he shall take a censer full of burning coals of fire from the altar before the Lord, with his hands full of sweet incense beaten fine, and bring it inside the veil. 13 And he shall put the incense on the fire before the Lord, that the cloud of incense may cover the mercy seat that is on the Testimony, lest he die. 14 He shall take some of the blood of the bull and sprinkle it with his finger on the mercy seat on the east side; and before the mercy seat he shall sprinkle some of the blood with his finger seven times.

15 “Then he shall kill the goat of the sin offering, which is for the people, bring its blood inside the veil, do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bull, and sprinkle it on the mercy seat and before the mercy seat. 16 So he shall make atonement for the Holy Place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions, for all their sins; and so he shall do for the tabernacle of meeting which remains among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 There shall be no man in the tabernacle of meeting when he goes in to make atonement in the Holy Place, until he comes out, that he may make atonement for himself, for his household, and for all the assembly of Israel. 18 And he shall go out to the altar that is before the Lord, and make atonement for it, and shall take some of the blood of the bull and some of the blood of the goat, and put it on the horns of the altar all around. 19 Then he shall sprinkle some of the blood on it with his finger seven times, cleanse it, and consecrate[b] it from the [c]uncleanness of the children of Israel.

20 “And when he has made an end of atoning for the Holy Place, the tabernacle of meeting, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat. 21 Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. 22 The goat [d]shall bear on itself all their iniquities to an [e]uninhabited land; and he shall release the goat in the wilderness.

23 “Then Aaron shall come into the tabernacle of meeting, shall take off the linen garments which he put on when he went into the Holy Place, and shall leave them there. 24 And he shall wash his body with water in a holy place, put on his garments, come out and offer his burnt offering and the burnt offering of the people, and make [f]atonement for himself and for the people. 25 The fat of the sin offering he shall burn on the altar. 26 And he who released the goat as the scapegoat shall wash his clothes and bathe his body in water, and afterward he may come into the camp. 27 The bull for the sin offering and the goat for the sin offering, whose blood was brought in to make atonement in the Holy Place, shall be carried outside the camp. And they shall burn in the fire their skins, their flesh, and their offal. 28 Then he who burns them shall wash his clothes and bathe his body in water, and afterward he may come into the camp.

29 “This shall be a statute forever for you: In the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, you shall [g]afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether a native of your own country or a stranger who [h]dwells among you. 30 For on that day the priest shall make [i]atonement for you, to cleanse you, that you may be clean from all your sins before the Lord. 31 It is a sabbath of solemn rest for you, and you shall afflict your souls. It is a statute forever. 32 And the priest, who is anointed and consecrated to minister as priest in his father’s place, shall make atonement, and put on the linen clothes, the holy garments; 33 then he shall make [j]atonement for [k]the Holy Sanctuary, and he shall make atonement for the tabernacle of meeting and for the altar, and he shall make atonement for the priests and for all the people of the assembly. 34 This shall be an everlasting statute for you, to make atonement for the children of Israel, for all their sins, once a year.” And he did as the Lord commanded Moses.

Can someone tell me here where the children of Israel are told to confess their sins to be granted forgiveness? I just can not see it.

 

[stonesoffire]

Not Passover, but Tabernacles. See Leviticus

Lev 23:33 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Lev 23:34 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto the LORD.
Lev 23:35 On the first day shall be an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.
Lev 23:36 Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD: it is a solemn assembly; and ye shall do no servile work therein.
Lev 23:37 These are the feasts of the LORD, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:
Lev 23:38 Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.
Lev 23:39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.
Lev 23:40 And ye shall take you on the first day the boughs of goodly trees, branches of palm trees, and the boughs of thick trees, and willows of the brook; and ye shall rejoice before the LORD your God seven days.
Lev 23:41 And ye shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: ye shall celebrate it in the seventh month.
Lev 23:42 Ye shall dwell in booths seven days; all that are Israelites born shall dwell in booths:
Lev 23:43 That your generations may know that I made the children of Israel to dwell in booths, when I brought them out of the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Lev 23:44 And Moses declared unto the children of Israel the feasts of the LORD.

The Final Harvest ...

Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
Rev 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
Rev 14:17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
Rev 14:19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

A man after my own heart!

 

[Yahshua]

Jesus has entered the Holy Place upon his 2nd ascension (Mt Olivet in Luke 24 and Acts 1; Rev. 12), and thus we see Jesus in the midst of the 7 branch candlesticks of the Heavenly Sanctuary in Revelation 1, where the Father received Him in Revelation 4-5. After a specific time prophecy ended in Daniel 8, the Son and Father both moved into the Most Holy place to begin the anti-typical day of atonement. It is now almost over, and Jesus is about to step out from between God (the Father) and wrath unmingled without mercy from the Ark. There will be a period of delay in Jesus doing this. This takes place just before Jesus returns. He goes from the Most Holy, back into the Holy and changes from priestly 'gear' to Kingly 'gear".

Hi and welcome!

In the course of High priestly work, as the Messiah ministers inside, what would you consider fulfills or is fulfilling the work of the "goat for entire removal" and the "man fit for the task", if we keep to the details of the atonement picture laid out in the ritual?

I'm curious as to what your take on this is..

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Lev 4, speaks about the daily sacrifice for sin.

Lev 4:6 And the priest shall dip his finger in the blood, and sprinkle of the blood seven times before the LORD, before the vail of the sanctuary.

This sin was transferred from the offender to the 'blood', which was then in type, taken before the Ark and 2nd vail.

The sinner was covered by this act. He was protected from wrath. Yet, the offender was still on probation, until such time as the sanctuary itself was cleansed, in the Day of Atonement, at which time, if the offender was true in their repentance, their sin was removed entirely altogether. If not, they were cut off from the camp of Israel forever, their debt reinstated, Lev 16 & 23.

As far as I can read in Lev 23, no work is to be done on the day of atonement or one is struck off from Israel.
There is no mention of probation and full cleansing.

So is this part of Jewish tradition, which is written up somewhere?

 

[FollowHisSteps]

Atoning for sins, covered and then cleansed is a Misnah concept not directly from scripture but Jewish
rabbinic interpretation, of minor sins, major sins, repentance needed, and not needed.

It is interesting because since Christ came and took away all these implications, because Jesus is the
atoning sacrifice once for all, then these layers of cleansing have also gone, because the ultimate
cleansing has arrived without restriction or links to dates or seasons in the year.

 

[FollowHisSteps]

1. There is no way possible you can even know every sin you commit, let alone remember every sin
2. It says like it always says, State our sins or name them to God and each other. That we may find healing.
3. If our future sin is not forgiven already, we are NOT Justified. We are NOT able to be santified, and we will NEVER be glorified.

You claim your interested in what the word says, Yet you ignore pauls words when it says we have been perfected forever (perfect tense, a completed action) And i have not even gotten into john 3 - 6 or eph 1 yet..

You cannot have it both ways.

This is a statement of unbelief. God never demands we repent of things we are not aware of.
A lawyer wants a free pass for past sin and also ones they might or might not chose to do in the future.
This is a blank cheque for lawlessness with no comeback.

It is like saying to a soldier, here is your ammunition, and you have been forgiven for the errors you
made in the passed, and also if you blow people away in the future, its ok, no problems, you have a
free pass also. That is not how responsibility and love works. The future is a walk to perfection, not
compromise as much as you like, no problems. Sin is death, and sin with the Lord face to face is instant
destruction. How would anyone dare say, its ok, if I screw up, nothing comes back on me.
The opposite is actually true, because one now knows it is much harder and more difficult to indulge
in evil behaviour and find forgiveness, because the rebellion runs much deeper.

Those in darkness cannot conceive of living in the light and seeing what sin is, because their hearts
are not pure and not been redeemed. Everything is just a belief system, which says the darkness
continues, and we can do nothing about it.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I do not. Daniel 9:27 is not about the antichrist, but about Jesus Christ. […]
[3] the word "prince" (נגיד ; נגידH5057; nägiyd) is only used for Jesus Christ the Messiah in all of Daniel, see Daniel 9:25,26, 11:22 ("prince of the covenant") as the anointed ruler thereof. Other examples in scripture of this are seen in the anointed kings of Israel (see 1 Samuel 25:30; 2 Samuel 6:21, 7:8; 1 Kings 1:35, 14:7, 16:2; 1 Chronicles 5:2, 11:2, 17:7, 28:4, 29:22; 2 Chronicles 6:5, 11:22), the anointed rulers of the priests (1 Chronicles 9:11,20, 12:27; 2 Chronicles 31:12,13, 35:8; Jeremiah 20:1; Nehemiah 11:11;

or those associated, 1 Chronicles 26:24, 27:4), the leaders of the tribes of Israel (1 Chronicles 27:16), generals/captains over others (1 Chronicles 13:1; 2 Chronicles 11:11; Psalms 76:12), or as one like Job (Job 31:37). (There are a few rare instances in scripture where the word can be used in a general sense for any ruler or captain over others (Job 29:10), even an opposing ruler/s, captains (see 2 Chronicles 23:21; Ezekiel 28:2), but the context is always clear in these instances; and it can mean a few other things in rare instances (Proverbs 8:6)).

[4] Gabriel and Daniel (Daniel 10:20), under guidance of the Holy Ghost, when referring to a foreign power and its leadership thereof, as a 'prince' (such as in the case of Grecia), another word is used instead, which is (שׂר ;שׂר H8269; sar; which means 'ruler'), and thus the word, "prince" (נגיד ; נגידH5057; nägiyd)" in Daniel 9, in its own context and surrounding, is not a reference to the Roman ruler (Caesar) in Daniel 9, though the word "sar" can be applied.

[5] the entire context of Daniel 9 is the Messiah and His people,

Consider:

--the first mention of "(נגיד ; נגידH5057; nägiyd)" is found in 1 Samuel 9:16, re: Saul ("anointed captain [H5057]")

--Saul was the king--"king" the people wanted, not what God wanted for them (of whom it was said "when the Lord your God was your king." 1Sam12:12-15, esp. v.12)

--"king you [the people] have chosen"

--"shall reign over My people"

--[said to Saul] "But now thy kingdom shall not continue: the Lord hath sought Him a... and hath commanded him captain [H5057] over His people, because thou [Saul] hast not kept that which the Lord commanded thee"

--"when Saul was king over us, it was YOU [David] who led us out and brought us in; and the Lord said to YOU, you shall feed My people Israel, and shall be captain [H5057] over Israel" 2Sam5:2

--"and I delivered thee [David] out of the hand of Saul" 2Sam12:7


… see what I'm getting at?