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so.....God's Plan prophesied in Joel (Pentecost) was dependent on the disciples' willing/calling down the Power from High?
i did not know that.
His Plan to lay the Foundation with prophets and apostles and Jesus as the Cornerstone was dependent on the apostles' agreeing it would be cool?
did not know that either.
i did not know that.
His Plan to lay the Foundation with prophets and apostles and Jesus as the Cornerstone was dependent on the apostles' agreeing it would be cool?
did not know that either.
These scriptures cannot lead to the conclusion that praying in the Spirit=speaking in tongues. While speaking in tongues certainly can be the Spirit of God moving in a believer, it is far from being sufficient basis to categorically state that praying in the Spirit always means speaking in tongues. That would be taking tongues too far and to exalt them to a level on which they are not. The risks with such are obvious.
There's not only one occurrence. For example in Acts 10 it is written that those who experienced the reception of the Spirit experienced it the same way "as well as we" (v.47) as it occurred in Acts 2. There's no mentioning of some "unknown" language being heard in any related instance occurring in Acts. Such an idea may be drawn from 1Cor.12 and 14, but hardly if at all from Acts.
I asked you for biblical evidence that men spoke in angelic tongues. I asked for fathers and teachers in church history (before pentecostalism) that held the belief that men can speak the languages of angels. To build a doctrine on one single scripture is always loose ground. We may examplify this with the Utah mormons use of 1Cor.15:29 which they insist is "proof" that indeed we can perform proxy baptisms on behalf of the dead, to their benefit. Which makes no sense.
And why limit 1Cor.13 to angelic tongues, if Paul is not using expressions but are talking about "manifestations" that christians may possess? Why not take the whole context into account and say that all christians also have the gift of prophecy, understand all mysteries, has all knowledge (like God); all faith, can remove mountains (happens often, doesn't it?), give all their goods to feed the poor, give their bodies to be burned (how many christians do you know that did this?). This makes absolutely no sense. Why single out tongues? Maybe because it's harder to discern for some people?
I don't gainsay that people in this regard can speak languages that are unintelligible, but I see no proof/function/purpose/meaning whatsoever that anyone of these would be of angelic origin. The proof of burden is upon those who makes such claims. So far I have seen no such explanation that is biblically valid or consistent.
Tongues is clearly said to be a gift. Sure, a gift that may manifest itself. No differance there. Since it is said that tongues should be interpreted, it is implied, as Paul says in 1Cor.14.5, that what is spoken in these languages can be profitable/edifying also for the church. Tongues may not now be a witnessing tool. But it served indeed the purpose as a "sign" for unbelievers (especially jews) and as a witness to those devout jews hearing the disciples praising God in their own native languages at the day of Pentecost.
I have not plucked out tongues. Just some misconceptions about them and the misuse/abuse of them.
There's not only one occurrence. For example in Acts 10 it is written that those who experienced the reception of the Spirit experienced it the same way "as well as we" (v.47) as it occurred in Acts 2. There's no mentioning of some "unknown" language being heard in any related instance occurring in Acts. Such an idea may be drawn from 1Cor.12 and 14, but hardly if at all from Acts.
I asked you for biblical evidence that men spoke in angelic tongues. I asked for fathers and teachers in church history (before pentecostalism) that held the belief that men can speak the languages of angels. To build a doctrine on one single scripture is always loose ground. We may examplify this with the Utah mormons use of 1Cor.15:29 which they insist is "proof" that indeed we can perform proxy baptisms on behalf of the dead, to their benefit. Which makes no sense.
And why limit 1Cor.13 to angelic tongues, if Paul is not using expressions but are talking about "manifestations" that christians may possess? Why not take the whole context into account and say that all christians also have the gift of prophecy, understand all mysteries, has all knowledge (like God); all faith, can remove mountains (happens often, doesn't it?), give all their goods to feed the poor, give their bodies to be burned (how many christians do you know that did this?). This makes absolutely no sense. Why single out tongues? Maybe because it's harder to discern for some people?
I don't gainsay that people in this regard can speak languages that are unintelligible, but I see no proof/function/purpose/meaning whatsoever that anyone of these would be of angelic origin. The proof of burden is upon those who makes such claims. So far I have seen no such explanation that is biblically valid or consistent.
Tongues is clearly said to be a gift. Sure, a gift that may manifest itself. No differance there. Since it is said that tongues should be interpreted, it is implied, as Paul says in 1Cor.14.5, that what is spoken in these languages can be profitable/edifying also for the church. Tongues may not now be a witnessing tool. But it served indeed the purpose as a "sign" for unbelievers (especially jews) and as a witness to those devout jews hearing the disciples praising God in their own native languages at the day of Pentecost.
I have not plucked out tongues. Just some misconceptions about them and the misuse/abuse of them.
good points.
the only times angels interact with men, they speak men's languages. why wouldn't they?
is God the author of confusion?
Acts.10
[44] While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
[45] And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[46] For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
[47] Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Acts 2:11
Yet we all alike hear these Galilaeans speaking in our own language about the wonderful things which God has done.
so when the languages gifts were given/used, what did the people hear about? nothing?
or about the wonderful things God has done?
Peter clarifies (for the crowd) what has happened, and what God was saying through the disciples in the miracle of Pentecost about His wonderful works:
Acts 2
14 Peter however, together with the Eleven, stood up and addressed them in a loud voice. "Men of Judaea, and all you inhabitants of Jerusalem," he said, "be in no uncertainty about this matter but pay attention to what I say. 15 For this is not intoxication, as you suppose, it being only the third hour of the day. 16 But that which was predicted through the Prophet Joel has happened....
...22 "Listen, Israelites, to what I say. Jesus, the Nazarene, a man accredited to you from God by miracles and marvels and signs which God did among you through Him, as you yourselves know, Him-- 23 delivered up through God's settled purpose and foreknowledge--you by the hands of Gentiles have nailed to a cross and have put to death. 24 But God has raised Him to life, having terminated the throes of death, for in fact it was not possible for Him to be held fast by death....
.. 32 This Jesus, God has raised to life-- a fact to which all of us testify. 33 "Being therefore lifted high by the mighty hand of God, He has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out this which you see and hear....
~
result of the declaration of the wonderful works of God/God magnified:
37 Stung to the heart by these words, they said to Peter and the rest of the Apostles, "Brethren, what are we to do?" 38 "Repent," replied Peter, "and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, with a view to the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For to you belongs the promise, and to your children, and to all who are far off, whoever the Lord our God may call....
...43 Fear came upon every one, and many marvels and signs were done by the Apostles. 44 And all the believers kept together, and had everything in common. 45 They sold their lands and other property, and distributed the proceeds among all, according to every one's necessities. 46 And, day by day, attending constantly in the Temple with one accord, and breaking bread in private houses, they took their meals with great happiness and single-heartedness, 47 praising God and being regarded with favour by all the people. Also, day by day, the Lord added to their number those whom He was saving.
the only times angels interact with men, they speak men's languages. why wouldn't they?
is God the author of confusion?
Acts.10
[44] While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
[45] And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[46] For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
[47] Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Acts 2:11
Yet we all alike hear these Galilaeans speaking in our own language about the wonderful things which God has done.
so when the languages gifts were given/used, what did the people hear about? nothing?
or about the wonderful things God has done?
Peter clarifies (for the crowd) what has happened, and what God was saying through the disciples in the miracle of Pentecost about His wonderful works:
Acts 2
14 Peter however, together with the Eleven, stood up and addressed them in a loud voice. "Men of Judaea, and all you inhabitants of Jerusalem," he said, "be in no uncertainty about this matter but pay attention to what I say. 15 For this is not intoxication, as you suppose, it being only the third hour of the day. 16 But that which was predicted through the Prophet Joel has happened....
...22 "Listen, Israelites, to what I say. Jesus, the Nazarene, a man accredited to you from God by miracles and marvels and signs which God did among you through Him, as you yourselves know, Him-- 23 delivered up through God's settled purpose and foreknowledge--you by the hands of Gentiles have nailed to a cross and have put to death. 24 But God has raised Him to life, having terminated the throes of death, for in fact it was not possible for Him to be held fast by death....
.. 32 This Jesus, God has raised to life-- a fact to which all of us testify. 33 "Being therefore lifted high by the mighty hand of God, He has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out this which you see and hear....
~
result of the declaration of the wonderful works of God/God magnified:
37 Stung to the heart by these words, they said to Peter and the rest of the Apostles, "Brethren, what are we to do?" 38 "Repent," replied Peter, "and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, with a view to the remission of your sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For to you belongs the promise, and to your children, and to all who are far off, whoever the Lord our God may call....
...43 Fear came upon every one, and many marvels and signs were done by the Apostles. 44 And all the believers kept together, and had everything in common. 45 They sold their lands and other property, and distributed the proceeds among all, according to every one's necessities. 46 And, day by day, attending constantly in the Temple with one accord, and breaking bread in private houses, they took their meals with great happiness and single-heartedness, 47 praising God and being regarded with favour by all the people. Also, day by day, the Lord added to their number those whom He was saving.
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What, in your opinion, is "praying in the spirit"?
It does not say Peter and those with him understood what Cornelius and his family were saying. Peter knew what speaking in tongues is, and knew that when they spoke in tongues they were magnifying God.
I don't know about what mormons believe. The bible says that tongues can be a language of men or of angels.
It's not limited to "angelic tongues". Tongues can be a language of men or of angels.
Who is singling out tongues? By the way, all Christians can operate the manifestation of prophesy.
Again, the point of the chapter is that whatever gift or manifestation is being used, all must be done in love.
The bible says that tongues can be in a language of men or of angels. You apparently do not believe what it says.
No, tongues is a manifestation of the gift of holy spirit. Anyone who has holy spirit can operate the manifestations of holy spirit.
The gift is holy spirit. One of the manifestations of that gift is speaking in tongues.
Yes, tongues is profitable to the church when it is interpreted. But it's primary use is for the individual believer. And it's a sign to unbelievers when they hear tongues with interpretation.
You still have misconceptions.
It does not say Peter and those with him understood what Cornelius and his family were saying. Peter knew what speaking in tongues is, and knew that when they spoke in tongues they were magnifying God.
I don't know about what mormons believe. The bible says that tongues can be a language of men or of angels.
It's not limited to "angelic tongues". Tongues can be a language of men or of angels.
Who is singling out tongues? By the way, all Christians can operate the manifestation of prophesy.
Again, the point of the chapter is that whatever gift or manifestation is being used, all must be done in love.
The bible says that tongues can be in a language of men or of angels. You apparently do not believe what it says.
No, tongues is a manifestation of the gift of holy spirit. Anyone who has holy spirit can operate the manifestations of holy spirit.
The gift is holy spirit. One of the manifestations of that gift is speaking in tongues.
Yes, tongues is profitable to the church when it is interpreted. But it's primary use is for the individual believer. And it's a sign to unbelievers when they hear tongues with interpretation.
You still have misconceptions.
no, he does not understand, same as you.
What calvinistic translation is that?
(KJV) Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
(NIV) praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
(ESV) praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
(NKJV) praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.
(NRSV) praising God and having the goodwill of all the people. And day by day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved.
(ASV) praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to them day by day those that were saved.
God does not determine who will be saved. They were being saved as they believed.
(sorry, OT for this thread)
What calvinistic translation is that?
(KJV) Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
(NIV) praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.
(ESV) praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.
(NKJV) praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.
(NRSV) praising God and having the goodwill of all the people. And day by day the Lord added to their number those who were being saved.
(ASV) praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to them day by day those that were saved.
God does not determine who will be saved. They were being saved as they believed.
(sorry, OT for this thread)
God does not determine who will be saved.
God does not determine who will be saved.
God does not determine who will be saved.
ugh. wretched.
John 6:26
but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
God does not determine who will be saved.
God does not determine who will be saved.
ugh. wretched.
John 6:26
but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
ah ah can i add to this please?
ok,
Romans 9:11-13
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
ok,
Romans 9:11-13
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth, It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
You are singling out tongues from 1Cor.13, whilst now you also named prophesying. But you are still quiet about understanding all mysteries, having all knowledge (like God), having all faith, removing mountains, giving all ones goods to feed the poor, giving ones bodies to be burned. You build a doctrine on one verse taken out of context, while you sneak away from the rest of the context.
This is off-topic. There has not been any discussion about what the Bible says here. Clearly it speaks about tongues of men and of angels in 1Cor.13.1 and then the list goes on with various "manifestations". What is being discussed here is if the gift of tongues, or the manifestation of tongues, as you prefer to have it, can consist in that men speak with the tongues of angels/angelic languages or not.
You obviously think so, but have still not given any consistent scriptural or other evidence for it. All you have given is your own opinions. That's all.
This is off-topic. There has not been any discussion about what the Bible says here. Clearly it speaks about tongues of men and of angels in 1Cor.13.1 and then the list goes on with various "manifestations". What is being discussed here is if the gift of tongues, or the manifestation of tongues, as you prefer to have it, can consist in that men speak with the tongues of angels/angelic languages or not.
You obviously think so, but have still not given any consistent scriptural or other evidence for it. All you have given is your own opinions. That's all.
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election
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: eklogé
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-log-ay')
Short Definition: a choosing out, selecting, choice by God
Definition: a choosing out, selecting, choice (by God).
Cognate: 1589 eklogḗ (from 1537 /ek, "out from and to" and 3004 /légō, "speaking to a conclusion") – properly, selection out of and to a given outcome; (theologically) election. See 1586 (eklegomai).
[1589 /eklogḗ ("divine selection") occurs seven times in the Greek NT. The cognate verb 1586 /eklégomai ("select, choose out") occurs 22 times "and is always in the Greek middle voice" (DNTT, 1, 538).]
1589. eklogé
eklogé: a (divine) selection
Original Word: ἐκλογή, ῆς, ἡPart of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: eklogé
Phonetic Spelling: (ek-log-ay')
Short Definition: a choosing out, selecting, choice by God
Definition: a choosing out, selecting, choice (by God).
Cognate: 1589 eklogḗ (from 1537 /ek, "out from and to" and 3004 /légō, "speaking to a conclusion") – properly, selection out of and to a given outcome; (theologically) election. See 1586 (eklegomai).
[1589 /eklogḗ ("divine selection") occurs seven times in the Greek NT. The cognate verb 1586 /eklégomai ("select, choose out") occurs 22 times "and is always in the Greek middle voice" (DNTT, 1, 538).]
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I know these will probably fall on deaf ears, but:
John 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
1 Tim 2:4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Pet 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Acts 2:21) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:11) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Romans 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
God bless.
John 3:16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
1 Tim 2:4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2 Pet 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Acts 2:21) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Romans 10:9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:11) For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Romans 10:13) For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
God bless.