The Least Commandment

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
30,924
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#41
What does "love God with all your heart all your soul with all your mind and with all your strength" look like?

It looks like this

...
i get what your'e saying, but love the Lord with all of your being also looks like this:

You shall not hand over to his master a slave who has escaped from his master to you. He shall live with you in your midst, in the place which he shall choose in one of your towns where it pleases him; you shall not mistreat him.
(Deuteronomy 23:15-16)
where do i get this from the 10 commandments?
and is this the least commandment?


while i'm in this chapter, what about -

You shall also have a place outside the camp and go out there, and you shall have a spade among your tools, and it shall be when you sit down outside, you shall dig with it and shall turn to cover up your excrement.
(Deuteronomy 23:12-13)

is this the least commandment?
can i derive this exclusively from one or a combination of the famous 10 commandments? would it be '
bearing false witness against my neighbor' if i didn't bury my dung, or . . ?


 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
30,924
10,169
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#43
Good grief. The Two Greatest Commandments are a summation of the Ten Commandments.
that's better :)

i think it was probably shocking then, and it also seems to be now, when Christ answered what is the single most important commandment by giving the two greatest commandments, and neither one of them turned out to even be in Exodus!

i mean, have a look at the top page or two of the BDF on any random month and you'd think we believe the greatest two commandments are to cut off from your people anyone who breaks the sabbath and to teach the Law to your children :p
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
30,924
10,169
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#44
Maybe there is a least. We are the least, not a commandment
post's wife was saying this morning that what i'm looking to figure out is hand-in-hand with 'whatever you did for the least of these, you did for Me'

at first i wasn't understanding her, thinking 'that's about people, not commandments' -- but there's more to what she's thinking than what i first thought.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
790
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#45
"And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy mind, and with all thy soul, and all thy strength."
Dt 6:5, LXX

"thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself"
Lv 19:18

These are normal and existing commadmenst in the Law. Its not just a summarization.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
30,924
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#46
Jas 2v9 is not complete by itself but is in tandem with v 10....or else how would you put meaning to v 10 all by itself. the 2 verses are linked and point to only the 10 which were given by GOD personally to people and are spiritual and eternal.....thus separating them from the commandments of works and ordiinances which were temporary until Jesus fulfilled them on the cross Eph 2v15; Col 2v14;
The 'whole law here referred to are the 10 spiritual HOLY Commandments Rom 7;....the 'works were never holy but carnal Heb 9v10.
GOD puts difference between holy and unholy even if man does not Lev 10v10.

none of those verses are isolated from each other.
if you just read James from the beginning, following the narrative and the argument, he reprimands the people he's writing to for showing partiality ((which is a commandment)), then immediately afterward says breaking one commandment ((for example the one he's actually fussing at them over)) makes you guilty of breaking the whole Law - only after saying this does he ever mention the 10 commandments, using two of them as an hypothetical example that a person is still guilty by breaking one even if they keep the other. then he says that by keeping "
the Law of our King" they'd do well and not have any of this trouble. guess which one he calls "the royal law" ? love your neighbor -- which is not one of the 10 commandments. it can be said to describe and for the basis of some of the 10, but it is not one of the 10 and simply by following the 10 you do not arrive at love.

the 10 commandments are not the gospel.
the are not the basis of the Law and the prophets.
they are not the foundation of our faith.

Jesus Christ incarnate, sacrificed for our redemption, risen again and coming back at His appointed time is the gospel.

... and Jesus implied there is such a thing as '
the least' commandment(s). that's what this thread will hopefully keep semi-centered around, even with tangent discussions going on :)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
30,924
10,169
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#47
ὃς ἐὰν οὖν λύσῃ μίαν τῶν ἐντολῶν τούτων τῶν ἐλαχίστων

"whoever, then, will loose one of the commandments these the smallest/least"

... would be word for word translation, imho

"The least" is plural as you can identify by the ending of the word - ων.
it's genitive, which if i understand correctly, is indicating it's associated with "these" which is a plural, so it takes plural to match the case of "these" -- does that mean it's necessarily a plurality of "least" ? i dunno. Greek scholar needed, inquire within :p

mathematically, there can be more than one "
least" if we have a measure defined for the set and more than one element has the same 'lowest' measure. sure. or you can have only one element that measures smallest. i'm not sure how much the grammar actually implies, is all -- although a counterargument to your point is that He does say "one" of them, singular. you could argue in reply that He means any one of the congruent elements that measure 'least'
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
790
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#48
it's genitive, which if i understand correctly, is indicating it's associated with "these" which is a plural, so it takes plural to match the case of "these" -- does that mean it's necessarily a plurality of "least" ? i dunno. Greek scholar needed, inquire within :p

mathematically, there can be more than one "least" if we have a measure defined for the set and more than one element has the same 'lowest' measure. sure. or you can have only one element that measures smallest. i'm not sure how much the grammar actually implies, is all -- although a counterargument to your point is that He does say "one" of them, singular. you could argue in reply that He means any one of the congruent elements that measure 'least'
I think that elachistón belongs to entolón. Its hard to put in English, but adjective and noun it belongs to are both either plural or singular, it cannot be different. Its the same in my native language.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
30,924
10,169
113
#49
I think that elachistón belongs to entolón. Its hard to put in English, but adjective and noun it belongs to are both either plural or singular, it cannot be different. Its the same in my native language.
oh, yeah "these" is obviously not a noun but a pronoun ((smacks self on head))
probably the adjective belongs to the noun. and the noun is plural, so the pronoun and the adjective have to also be. makes sense


smacking myself on forehead probably hasn't helped, btw, but i do it anyhow :D
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
9,947
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113
#50
i get what your'e saying, but love the Lord with all of your being also looks like this:

You shall not hand over to his master a slave who has escaped from his master to you. He shall live with you in your midst, in the place which he shall choose in one of your towns where it pleases him; you shall not mistreat him.
(Deuteronomy 23:15-16)
where do i get this from the 10 commandments?
and is this the least commandment?


while i'm in this chapter, what about -

You shall also have a place outside the camp and go out there, and you shall have a spade among your tools, and it shall be when you sit down outside, you shall dig with it and shall turn to cover up your excrement.
(Deuteronomy 23:12-13)

is this the least commandment?
can i derive this exclusively from one or a combination of the famous 10 commandments? would it be '
bearing false witness against my neighbor' if i didn't bury my dung, or . . ?
Yep, if a man love God, automatically he love his neighbor

1 john 4:20


If a man say, “I love God,” and hateth his brother, he is a liar. For he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
 
W

whatev

Guest
#51
it wasn't meant to be a definition of integers; it was a set of two congruency partitions of the integers whose union covers all of them :)

similarly love the Lord and love one another isn't a 'definition' of the Law - the duad forms a basis vector ((i'm speaking graduate level linear algebra & algebraic topology here)) for the whole space in the same way odd/even or prime/composite or positive/negative do of the integers, with their corresponding unit elements.
You really do think mathmatically, don't you? :eek:

Sorry, I had Algebra I and II in high school, but haven't needed it since, so you lost me at congruency partitions.

But how about the two greatest commandments = the definition of the commandments, while all the Law (including the Ten Commandments and the entire Law of the OT) = components of the definition?

Can STEM-think meet SPAG-think there? (Considering I don't know what STEM means other than knowing that is the science/technology-loving end of the spectrum, you might not know what SPAG is. Spelling, punctuation, and grammar. The language/word-nerd end of the spectrum. Where I live. ;))
 
W

whatev

Guest
#53
All command is hang on 2 command,

Command to sacrifice animal is also base on those 2 command,

But we not do it anymore, is that mean we breaking the law for not make animal sacrifice?

No. Some people believe not observe sabbath law on Saturday is breaking the law, I don't agree, because we are not under ot law anymore.
The animal sacrifice was a shadow of what real sacrifice looks like. Jesus did the real sacrifice to the propitiation of the Father for whosoever will believe, so we no longer need to shadow sacrifice anymore.

And God is our rest, so if we follow him, we do rest. And, still stuck in these fallible bodies, we still require real rest at least one day a week, or bodies, souls, and spirits grow too weary to follow him. So Sabbath is still in and the Lord is still our real rest.

Jesus said he didn't come to do away with the law. He came to fulfill it. We didn't fulfill it. He did, so the law did not die. It was clarified. He is our Law. Follow him, and we follow the Law, because the Law is who he is. He is our strength. He is our Law.
 
W

whatev

Guest
#54
All of the law includes the foretelling of Jesus. That is it illustrates what He is.

Priest, propitiation for sin, sacrifice of God, not of man. Of course there is much more.

He fulfills the majority of the laws but there are yet many that will never be completed until His return when He completes the works He began in each one of us.
He fulfilled all the Law. He is the Law. See the Law and you see who the Lord is.

You also see how we fall short. And how much we need him to work in us to be doers of the Word.

(In which case, I think the only thing we're disagreeing with is one adjective -- "majority." Drop that, and we agree.)
 
W

whatev

Guest
#55
i get what your'e saying, but love the Lord with all of your being also looks like this:

You shall not hand over to his master a slave who has escaped from his master to you. He shall live with you in your midst, in the place which he shall choose in one of your towns where it pleases him; you shall not mistreat him.
(Deuteronomy 23:15-16)
where do i get this from the 10 commandments?
and is this the least commandment?


while i'm in this chapter, what about -

You shall also have a place outside the camp and go out there, and you shall have a spade among your tools, and it shall be when you sit down outside, you shall dig with it and shall turn to cover up your excrement.
(Deuteronomy 23:12-13)

is this the least commandment?
can i derive this exclusively from one or a combination of the famous 10 commandments? would it be '
bearing false witness against my neighbor' if i didn't bury my dung, or . . ?
I'm more inclined to think that's the second commandment -- love your neighbor, as you love yourself. And I think that because it deals with people, not God. (People = neighbor. God = God.)

And I see that first one clarifying the "don't steal" commandment. What would you do if you came across a runaway slave? Who are you obligated to -- the master or the slave? Which one is your neighbor? (Both are.)

And do remember, most slaves became slaves in ways that don't happen anymore. Most slaves were either from war or from poor and slaves for seven years, (or Year of Jubilee, whichever came first), unless the slave chooses to stay. POWs became slaves, but most slaves usually came from family. If I lost everything my family had to bring me in, take care of me, and I had to contribute to the family income. There was one other kind of slave. If I stole your goat and ate it, but couldn't afford to pay you what I was supposed to pay for it, (I can't remember if it was two times or four times the price of the animal), then I became your slave for seven years.

Which makes me wonder why a slave would run away. If I were a POW, it is likely I'm running away to go back home. Why would I ask you to help me? You're of the people I was fighting. I'd rather go home. If I owed you a goat, I'd feel obliged to pay you back whichever way works. If you're family and I'm running away, what did you do to me that I wanted to run away from family? Which makes me think of the laws about slavery, where it was okay to beat them in certain ways, but not too much. I would run away, if I'm beaten, in hope that the next person won't beat me.

So, yes, all that out of how to love a neighbor. Which comes under loving a person, not loving God.

As for covering excrement? Also how to love your neighbor. It sounds like it would fit in Emily Post's Book of Etiquette circa 15th century BC. "Clean up your poo." I'd put it under Don't murder, since leaving human poo exposed in vast quantities would be an environmental disaster.

I do understand you want to figure out the difference between greatest and least. I have no idea about that. All I know is it doesn't matter too much, because I've broken every single commandment. Haven't we all?
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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#56
He fulfilled all the Law. He is the Law. See the Law and you see who the Lord is.

You also see how we fall short. And how much we need him to work in us to be doers of the Word.

(In which case, I think the only thing we're disagreeing with is one adjective -- "majority." Drop that, and we agree.)
If we just strive to do what Jesus did, by following His example, we will still keep the 10 Commandments. Since these all called for the death penalty. These are lesser commandments that deal with restitution and so on. Why is it so hard for Christians to acknowledge the Fourth Commandment? Because the spirit of this world system just won't allow it.

roll-eyes-smiley.gif
 
W

whatev

Guest
#57
Post, I love how smart you are, both mathematically and linguistically. I love your humility too. I will never be able to answer your original question, but if someone can, I'll be thrilled.
 
W

whatev

Guest
#58
If we just strive to do what Jesus did, by following His example, we will still keep the 10 Commandments. Since these all called for the death penalty. These are lesser commandments that deal with restitution and so on. Why is it so hard for Christians to acknowledge the Fourth Commandment? Because the spirit of this world system just won't allow it.

View attachment 184391
I am completely lost on what you're saying to me here.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
16,171
9,800
113
74
Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
#59
I am completely lost on what you're saying to me here.
What I am saying is the hardest part I ever had in understanding the scriptures, was the tradition about what the Bible said that was handed me since childhood. The biggest hurdle was coming to accept the Fourth Commandment. Once I did that, many other things opened up for me. Think about it.

in-deep-thought-smiley-emoticon.gif
 
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whatev

Guest
#60
What I am saying is the hardest part I ever had in understanding the scriptures, was the tradition about what the Bible said that was handed me since childhood. The biggest hurdle was coming to accept the Fourth Commandment. Once I did that, many other things opened up for me. Think about it.

View attachment 184392
So the fourth commandment is the least or the greatest? Because I have no idea why you're stuck on it.