THE LIE IN LORDSHIP SALVATION THEORY

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throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,468
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Again

i have told you

and they have told you so many times.

and yet you refuse to see.

until you acknowledge what others have told you, there is nothing to,discuss
Citing Augustine, John Calvin wrote, “[T]hose who do not persevere unto the end belong not to the calling of God.”2

Calvin also stated:

[W]hat they [the Christians at Corinth] had attained so far is nothing, unless they keep steadily on; because it is not enough that they once started off on the way of the Lord, if they do not make an effort to reach the goal.3

. W. Pink’s book Practical Christianity, Pink taught, “f there is a reserve in your obedience, you are on the road to hell.”4

Pink also said:

Something more than believing in Christ is necessary to ensure the soul’s reaching Heaven.5

Reformed minister John Otis states that, “maintaining an unforgiving spirit . . . will surely destroy our souls in hell.”6

In his book, The Doctrine of Sanctification, A. W. Pink stated:

[H]oliness in this life is such a part of our “salvation” that it is a necessary means to make us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in heavenly light and glory.7

Calvinist theologian and co-founder of the Westminster Theological Seminary, Dr. John Murray states:

[L]et us appreciate the doctrine of the perseverance of the saints and recognize that we may entertain the faith of our security in Christ only as we persevere in faith and holiness to the end.8
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,468
1,591
113
Again

i have told you

and they have told you so many times.

and yet you refuse to see.

until you acknowledge what others have told you, there is nothing to,discuss
Calvinist theologian Charles Hodge (1797-1878), in referring to evidence of being elected, said:

The only evidence of election is effectual calling, that is, the production of holiness. And the only evidence of the genuineness of this call and the certainty of our perseverance, is a patient continuance in well doing.11

Again, John Murray stated:

The perseverance of the saints reminds us very forcefully that only those who persevere to the end are truly saints.12

In the perseverance discussion, John MacArthur states that “you may be a spiritual defector who hasn’t defected yet.”13

“I WAS TERRIFIED!”
In an article titled “Assurance of Salvation,” the highly popular Calvinist teacher, the late R. C. Sproul (d. 2017) wrote:

A while back I had one of those moments . . . suddenly the question hit me: “R. C., what if you are not one of the redeemed? What if your destiny is not heaven after all, but hell?” Let me tell you that I was flooded in my body with a chill that went from my head to the bottom of my spine. I was terrified.14

There is not a person in the world who believes what John Calvin taught who should not be terrified concerning the reality of his salvation.
Sproul continued:

I began to take stock of my life, and I looked at my performance. My sins came pouring into my mind, and the more I looked at myself the worse I felt. I thought, “Maybe it’s really true. Maybe I’m not saved after all.” . . . Then I remembered John 6:68. Jesus had been giving out hard teaching, and many of His former followers had left Him. When He asked Peter if he was also going to leave, Peter said, “Where else can we go? Only You have words of eternal life.” In other words, Peter was also uncomfortable, but he realized that being uncomfortable with Jesus was better than any other option.15
Eternal security?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
I belong to a non denominational church, now if anyone looks at writting of the pastors of my church, or listens to teaching, and comes and says because this person said that you must believe it, they are out of bounds, I do not believe everything they say

to attack a group because Of something someone said, is just wrong

but we see pride is deep, if he will not confess of this, what other sins is he hiding?
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,468
1,591
113
I belong to a non denominational church, now if anyone looks at writting of the pastors of my church, or listens to teaching, and comes and says because this person said that you must believe it, they are out of bounds, I do not believe everything they say

to attack a group because Of something someone said, is just wrong

but we see pride is deep, if he will not confess of this, what other sins is he hiding?
" crucify him"
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
4,891
2,531
113
@SoulWeaver

I think also if we look at the Canons of Dort we can see why @throughfaith is making this assertion.

Assurance of their eternal and unchangeable election to salvation is given to the chosen in due time, though by various stages and in differing measure. Such assurance comes not by inquisitive searching into the hidden and deep things of God, but by noticing within themselves, with spiritual joy and holy delight, the unmistakable fruits of election pointed out in God’s Word—such as a true faith in Christ, a childlike fear of God, a godly sorrow for their sins, a hunger and thirst for righteousness, and so on.

https://www.crcna.org/welcome/beliefs/confessions/canons-dort
This is Reformed Theology
........the difficulty is they will turn around and also state it is all God's work as well.

In essence assurance is placed on a very unbalanced ground.

"Looking to oneself" for evidence/assurance is very prevalent in many teachers who lean towards Calvinism or who are Five Point Calvinists.
Well that's surely material for discussion and I have my own (other) grievances to point out, and it would be a great topic to discuss and help one another, but I'm not liking how this discussion is unfolding so it seems like a wrong environment right now. Even though I really wanted to, but I don't want to get entangled into bickering. It seemed like things calmed down last night but it's happening all over again.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
Well that's surely material for discussion and I have my own (other) grievances to point out, but I'm not liking how this discussion is unfolding so it seems like a wrong environment to discuss it right now, even though I really wanted to, but I don't want to get entangled into bickering.
Agree.. I think this is an important observation below......

How can you bear fasle witness against the TULIP 🌷? ( incidently its not monolithic)its a theological system comprising of doctrines and confessions .
I think this post really shows the difficulties... however pointing out some of the inconsistencies becomes some kind of personal attack.
 

SoulWeaver

Senior Member
Oct 25, 2014
4,891
2,531
113
@EleventhHour
I believe that people see TULIP in different ways. It isn't same to adhere to it as to a dogma that blinds you from seeing anything out of it (which would be a problem), VS using it as a tool in your attempts to understand the Bible (while admitting there are some things we don't fully see), which is the approach I consistently see coming from some friendly members here. That's something I have respect for and such attitude allows for a quality conversation. I don't really subscribe to anything that isn't a Bible term, but that's just my view, and I understand that some people still might find theology useful.

It might be helpful if @throughfaith referred directly to the teachings that he finds troubling in the future posts, and avoided saying things like "Calvinists believe this"... "they teach that"... which is focusing on people and inevitably comes across as personal address and claims about personal beliefs. Even if the same theology was taught everywhere, people each may have their own surprisingly different understanding in their spirit. Also, I suspect that this might be the case with Calvinists, as is with the Baptists or Pentacostals: certain beliefs may differ a little from congregation to congregation. I don't know this for fact... but might be a possibility? So rather specific, precisely defined teachings should be discussed, in order to avoid waste of time.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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The only evidence of election is effectual calling, that is, the production of holiness. And the only evidence of the genuineness of this call and the certainty of our perseverance, is a patient continuance in well doing
This is speaking about "evidence" which is evident to others (particularly to other Christians). It is not directly addressing how God sees the saint. But what has been stated is perfectly correct and biblical, though quite brief. (As to the Calvinistic idea of "effectual calling, that is another subject, since they believe that only the elect are called).

If you claim to be a Christian but live like the devil, that is evidence that you are NOT a Christian -- just a pretender. A genuine Christian will continue throughout his life working out his salvation with fear and trembling, being obedient to the commandments of God and Christ, and expressing God's love in his life (since that is Christ's supreme commandment). This will indeed result in holiness and a patient continuance in well doing.

The above quote should have included three other things: (1) one's standing before God, (2) the inner witness of the Holy Spirit, and (3) a transformed life.

So if you are trying to refute the biblical doctrine of sanctification, then you yourself are not a Christian.

As I have said before the Westminster Confession of Faith has much that is true and biblical, and much that is false and man-made doctrine. But that is the standard by which anyone should judge Reformed Theology.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
@EleventhHour
I believe that people see TULIP in different ways. It isn't same to adhere to it as to a dogma that blinds you from seeing anything out of it (which would be a problem), VS using it as a tool in your attempts to understand the Bible (while admitting there are some things we don't fully see), which is the approach I consistently see coming from some friendly members here. That's something I have respect for and such attitude allows for a quality conversation. I don't really subscribe to anything that isn't a Bible term, but that's just my view, and I understand that some people still might find theology useful.

It might be helpful if @throughfaith referred directly to the teachings that he finds troubling in the future posts, and avoided saying things like "Calvinists believe this"... "they teach that"... which is focusing on people and inevitably comes across as personal address and claims about personal beliefs. Even if the same theology was taught everywhere, people each may have their own surprisingly different understanding in their spirit. Also, I suspect that this might be the case with Calvinists, as is with the Baptists or Pentacostals: certain beliefs may differ a little from congregation to congregation. I don't know this for fact... but might be a possibility? So rather specific, precisely defined teachings should be discussed, in order to avoid waste of time.
Thank you, this is what I see also