The Life of Jesus' from Evidence Outside our Gospels

[MadHermit]

(7) NEW EVIDENCE FOR THE AUTHENTICITY OF THE SHROUD OF TURN (see Mark 15:46)

What is most astounding to me is that even top NASA scientists who have conducted scientific studies of the Shroud can neither replicate it nor explain how it was created. In fact, the best evidence suggests that the image was created by a kind of radiation other than heat energy. Many view this as possible evidence that the Shroud's image was created by the very act of Jesus' Resurrection! For that reason alone, its date and authenticity are worth investigating. The posted article summarizes some of the main reasons why even skeptical scientists now believe the Shroud just might be the burial linen cloth of Jesus:

https://catholicherald.co.uk/issues...-latest-evidence-will-challenge-the-sceptics/

It is now widely recognized that the Shroud was once wrapped around a crucified corpse. The rare blood type AB on that corpse is the same as the blood type on the face wrap (soudarion of Jesus (John 20:7) in Oviedo, Spain that was brought from Jerusalem to Spain. The Bible teaches that we are saved through the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. In my view, the widespread evangelical disinterest in the evidence for the Shroud's authenticity signifies their disrespect for Jesus' shed blood that atones for our sins.

 

[MadHermit]

See this video on the authenticity of Jesus' alleged face cloth at Oviedo, Spain:

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...F539D715A3A8C69ABB55F539D715A3A8C69ABB5&FORM=

 

[Endoscopy]

I haven’t read anything on the frigile drive train though i have read it was a pain to get at things, to get at the transmission the turret had to be removed. top five reasons the tiger tank II had issues. and like you mentioned for about every 12 t-34 produced - 1 tiger tank II.

1. Tracks: During winter, mud and snow would pack into the tracks and freeze up, thus jamming the tracks. When the Russians realised this, they timed their attacks for the early morning before the snow/mud could thaw.
2. Size: Few bridges were strong enough to cope with the ever increasing weight of the various different marks of the Tiger. Therefore, the first 495 Tigers were fitted with a snorkel which allowed them to cross rivers up to a depth of 13 feet. This was abandoned as an economy measure so that later versions could only operate to a depth of 4 feet.
3. Production: Flat section armour plate was used throughout the assembly process, which allowed the use of heavy armour. Various parts were made as one unit complete with interlocking joints that made assembly a quick process, which allowed the production of 1,350 tanks in 2 years, with 104 being made in just one month in April 1944. However, each tank cost over 250,000 marks to manufacture.
4. Fuel/Distance usage: A journey of just 60 miles by a Tiger could eat up 150 gallons of fuel. Maintainingfuel supply to Tiger columns was always a difficult process and one that could be very easily disrupted by Resistance.
5. In combat: A Tiger could hit a T34 from 1500 metres but the T34 proved to be superior in close-quarterfighting.

The US provided thousands of Sherman tanks along with the T34 of Russia. In both sides of the war the Tiger was hit by a swarm of smaller tanks. They would first imobalize it by hitting its tracks and then shoot it in the rear exploding the fuel.

 

[Endoscopy]

(7) NEW EVIDENCE FOR THE AUTHENTICITY OF THE SHROUD OF TURN (see Mark 15:46)

What is most astounding to me is that even top NASA scientists who have conducted scientific studies of the Shroud can neither replicate it nor explain how it was created. In fact, the best evidence suggests that the image was created by a kind of radiation other than heat energy. Many view this as possible evidence that the Shroud's image was created by the very act of Jesus' Resurrection! For that reason alone, its date and authenticity are worth investigating. The posted article summarizes some of the main reasons why even skeptical scientists now believe the Shroud just might be the burial linen cloth of Jesus:

https://catholicherald.co.uk/issues...-latest-evidence-will-challenge-the-sceptics/

It is now widely recognized that the Shroud was once wrapped around a crucified corpse. The rare blood type AB on that corpse is the same as the blood type on the face wrap (soudarion of Jesus (John 20:7) in Oviedo, Spain that was brought from Jerusalem to Spain. The Bible teaches that we are saved through the shed blood of Jesus on the cross. In my view, the widespread evangelical disinterest in the evidence for the Shroud's authenticity signifies their disrespect for Jesus' shed blood that atones for our sins.

The fact that the shroud shows the wounds of a crucified man that had a crown of thorns placed on his head is very interesting. The problem is too many people venerate the object instead of Jesus. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus not a shroud. The shroud whether or not it was associated with Jesus is good at showing the effects of a crucifixion on the body? It should be looked at this way. The shroud will not save anyone.

 

[Lanolin]

Are you looking at the archaeolgical evidence, what about peoples testimonies from the time of his resurrection right up to now. Isnt that evidence enough?

I dont think there is any doubt that Jesus existed, even with skeptics. They just doubt the resurrection that he rose to life again.

 

[MadHermit]

Endoscopy,: ""The fact that the shroud shows the wounds of a crucified man that had a crown of thorns placed on his head is very interesting. The problem is too many people venerate the object instead of Jesus."

This is an irresponsible and unwarranted comment that merely reflects mindless anti-Catholic bias.
(1) The people who venerate the Shroud do so precisely because they love and worship Jesus as their Lord. People who have lost loved ones treasure photo albums and mementos belonging to those loved ones that rekindle their affection for them and bring back sacred memories. How much more so in the case of Jesus' burial clothes!
(2) No scientist can replicate how the Shroud image might have been made. That;s because it shows evidence of having been created through some unknown kind of radiation, but not by heat, for example, from a fire. So many view is as evidence for the moment of Jesus' resurrection. That very real possibility makes Shroud research absolutely electrifying!
(3) If the Shroud is genuine, than its bloodstains are due to Jesus' atoning shed blood on the cross, through which we are saved. Nothing could be more sacred than that! But despite their protestations to the contrary, many Evangelicals place little value in their hearts on the blood of Jesus.
Endoscopy: ""We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus not a shroud...The shroud will not save anyone."

Actually, the Shroud has served as God's tool for setting indifferent hearts on fire for the Lord. Videos on the Shroud research document how the Shroud has drawn spiritually indifferent people to the Gospel.

 

[posthuman]

The people who venerate the Shroud do so precisely because they love and worship Jesus as their Lord.

hmm do you figure probably the people who venerated Nehushtan did it because they loved the Almighty, too . . . ?

 

[Endoscopy]

Are you looking at the archaeolgical evidence, what about peoples testimonies from the time of his resurrection right up to now. Isnt that evidence enough?

I dont think there is any doubt that Jesus existed, even with skeptics. They just doubt the resurrection that he rose to life again.

The Gospels and Acts are first hand accounts of what happened around and after the crucifixion of Jesus. As such are history. Luke and Acts are written by Luke writing what was told him by witnesses.

 

[Endoscopy]

Endoscopy,: ""The fact that the shroud shows the wounds of a crucified man that had a crown of thorns placed on his head is very interesting. The problem is too many people venerate the object instead of Jesus."

This is an irresponsible and unwarranted comment that merely reflects mindless anti-Catholic bias.
(1) The people who venerate the Shroud do so precisely because they love and worship Jesus as their Lord. People who have lost loved ones treasure photo albums and mementos belonging to those loved ones that rekindle their affection for them and bring back sacred memories. How much more so in the case of Jesus' burial clothes!
(2) No scientist can replicate how the Shroud image might have been made. That;s because it shows evidence of having been created through some unknown kind of radiation, but not by heat, for example, from a fire. So many view is as evidence for the moment of Jesus' resurrection. That very real possibility makes Shroud research absolutely electrifying!
(3) If the Shroud is genuine, than its bloodstains are due to Jesus' atoning shed blood on the cross, through which we are saved. Nothing could be more sacred than that! But despite their protestations to the contrary, many Evangelicals place little value in their hearts on the blood of Jesus.
Endoscopy: ""We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus not a shroud...The shroud will not save anyone."

Actually, the Shroud has served as God's tool for setting indifferent hearts on fire for the Lord. Videos on the Shroud research document how the Shroud has drawn spiritually indifferent people to the Gospel.

In point of fact I am not anti Catholic. I differ with them about distinctives but they are Christians!! As such are brothers and sisters in Christ.

I have studied about the shroud in depth several years ago. It completely shows what happened to Jesus but is impossible to actually tie it to Jesus. It is what happened to many crucified individuals. There have been remains of crucified people dug up and examined. One still had a spike going through his heel bones. There were 3 styles of crosses. The type usually depicted, one in a T configuration, and the last just a post. I studied crucifixions in depth as well.

 

[Endoscopy]

In point of fact the spike goes through the wrist between the two bones not the hands. If put through the hand it would just tear out through the flesh. In Greek hand includes the wrist.

Your accusations were made in ignorance!!

 

[obedienttogod]

If someone would ever make the claim, "Remove the Bible and you will never find evidence of Yeshua being real," is like a red light turning green on a stop light. There are hardcore factual ancient evidence from not just the Jews and Romans, but of the Muslims and especially the ancient Greek writers who confirm there was a literal physical man called Yeshua. And not called Yeshua, but they go into detail of this Yeshua being compared to God because He created great miracles, had a fervent and strong following who called themselves Brothers and Sisters in Christ, and who was (the term they use for crucifixion = was hung) and killed, and 2 specific ancient writers include the fact there was an eclipse that took place at the time of His death creating darkness all over the known world during the day, that He supposedly resurrected, and there was even a 1st century Greek Satire who added that people still to this very day worship this man called Yeshua!!

If someone feels Yeshua is a conjured up creation found only within the scriptures, oh how mistaken have they been!! We have literally over 20 writings from all over the known world of Mesopotamia, from renowned ancient writers (atheists) who confirm Yeshua was the "REAL DEAL!!"

 

[MadHermit]

Lanolin: "Are you looking at the archaeolgical evidence, what about peoples testimonies from the time of his resurrection right up to now. Isnt that evidence enough?"


Endoscopy: "I dont think there is any doubt that Jesus existed, even with skeptics. They just doubt the resurrection that he rose to life again"
No, books have been written claiming that Jesus is a fabricated character based on a conflation of pagan mythologies.

Endoscopy,: "The Gospels and Acts are first hand accounts of what happened around and after the crucifixion of Jesus. "

The modern scholarly consensus is that not one of our Gospels was written by an eyewitness of Jesus. Many scholars dismiss Gospel resurrection accounts as hopelessly contradictory and therefore legendary. They challenge you to find a plausible Gospel sequence of events after the discovery of the empty tomb that is contradiction-free.

Endoscopy: "As such are history. Luke and Acts are written by Luke writing what was told him by witnesses."

Many Bible scholars challenge your claim and argue that Luke the physician and travel companion of Paul is NOT the author of the Gospel of Luke and Acts. If they are correct (and I don't believe they are), then your claim I false.

bedienttogo: "There are hardcore factual ancient evidence from not just the Jews and Romans, but of the
Muslims and especially the ancient Greek writers who confirm there was a literal physical man called Yeshua.

The Quran was written several centuries after Jesus. and must therefore rely on centuries of hearsay.
Name one ancient pagan Greek or Roman writer who credibly provides details about Jesus' life. Alleged references from the Roman historians Tacitus and Suetonius stem from the late first and early 2nd centuries and are reporting hearsay about a man named "Chrestus," not Christ. Many scholars argue that the 2 references in Josephus to Jesus are later interpolations.

Here is my point: I don't agree with the skeptics and started this thread to refute their claims. I have already cited Papias's connection with John the Elder, a disciple of Jesus, and his witness (confirmed by Justin Martyr) that Mark wrote his Gospel on the basis of Peter's memoirs. Some skeptics who accept the Shroud's authenticity reject the Gospel's witness to Jesus' resurrection. Christian apologetics needs to make use of ALL the available evidence that supports Jesus' life, deeds, and resurrection.


And not called Yeshua, but they go into detail of this Yeshua being compared to God because He created great miracles, had a fervent and strong following who called themselves Brothers and Sisters in Christ, and who was (the term they use for crucifixion = was hung) and killed, and 2 specific ancient writers include the fact there was an eclipse that took place at the time of His death creating darkness all over the known world during the day, that He supposedly resurrected, and there was even a 1st century Greek Satire who added that people still to this very day worship this man called Yeshua!!

If someone feels Yeshua is a conjured up creation found only within the scriptures, oh how mistaken have they been!! We have literally over 20 writings from all over the known world of Mesopotamia, from renowned ancient writers (atheists) who confirm Yeshua was the "REAL DEAL!!"

 

[obedienttogod]

OK THREAD op: IF I MUST INCLUDE THE EVIDENCE ABOUT THE GREEKS I SPOKE ABOUT:

I am tossing this one in first, because even the Jews admit He is real even when they tried to erase Him from history!!
Evidence from the Babylonian Talmud
On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald ... cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy."[21]



The rest are from Ancient Greek sources:
Evidence from Lucian
Lucian of Samosata was a first century Greek satirist. In one of his works, he wrote of the early Christians as follows:

The Christians ... worship a man to this day – the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account.... [It] was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws.[27]​

“The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day—the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account….You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property.” (Lucian, The Death of Peregrine. 11-13)

Thallus (52AD)
The Ancient Greek historian Thallus who previously tried to explain away the darkness occurring at Jesus’ crucifixion:

“On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls, as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun.” (Julius Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)

Phlegon (80-140AD)
In a manner similar to Thallus, Julius Africanus also mentions another Greek Historian named Phlegon who wrote a chronicle of history around 140AD. In this history, Phlegon also mentions the darkness surrounding the crucifixion in an effort to explain it:

“Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth to the ninth hour.” (Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)

Phlegon is also mentioned by Origen (an early church theologian and scholar, born in Alexandria):

“Now Phlegon, in the thirteenth or fourteenth book, I think, of his Chronicles, not only ascribed to Jesus a knowledge of future events . . . but also testified that the result corresponded to His predictions.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 14)

“And with regard to the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place … ” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 33)

“Jesus, while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails.” (Origen Against Celsus, Book 2, Chapter 59)

Celsus (175AD)
Ancient Greek Philosopher Celsus admits the miracles of Jesus were generally believed in the early 2nd century:

“Jesus had come from a village in Judea, and was the son of a poor Jewess who gained her living by the work of her own hands. His mother had been turned out of doors by her husband, who was a carpenter by trade, on being convicted of adultery [with a soldier named Panthéra (i.32)]. Being thus driven away by her husband, and wandering about in disgrace, she gave birth to Jesus, a bastard. Jesus, on account of his poverty, was hired out to go to Egypt. While there he acquired certain (magical) powers which Egyptians pride themselves on possessing. He returned home highly elated at possessing these powers, and on the strength of them gave himself out to be a god.”

 

[posthuman]

Christian apologetics needs to make use of ALL the available evidence that supports Jesus' life, deeds, and resurrection.

especially since your 'modern scholarship' tosses out the scripture itself?

 

[MadHermit]

obedienttogod: "I am tossing this one in first, because even the Jews admit He is real even when they tried to erase Him from history!!
Evidence from the Babylonian Talmud
On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald ... cried, "He is going forth to be stoned because he has practiced sorcery and enticed Israel to apostasy."[21]z"

The Babylonian Talmud was compiled around 600 AD and is therefore too late to be cited as Jewish evidence for the historical Jesus.

obedienttogod: "The rest are from Ancient Greek sources: Evidence from Lucian Lucian of Samosata was a first century Greek satirist."

Wrong! Lucian wrote around 180 AD--way too late to be cited as evidence for Jesus


obedientogod: "Phlegon (80-140AD) Julius Africanus also mentions another Greek Historian named Phlegon who wrote a chronicle of history around 140AD. In this history, Phlegon also mentions the darkness surrounding the crucifixion in an effort to explain it:
Phlegon records that, in the time of Tiberius Caesar, at full moon, there was a full eclipse of the sun from the sixth to the ninth hour.” (Africanus, Chronography, 18:1)"

No, Phlegon wasreferring to an eclipse is Bithynia, 800 miles from Jerusalem! Read this article:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Phlegon

“obedienttogod: "Celsus (175AD) Ancient Greek Philosopher Celsus admits the miracles of Jesus were generally believed in the early 2nd century:"

At the start of this thread I summarize the version of Jesus' life circulated by Celsus's biased sources. But remember, Celsus wrote around 170 AD--again too late to be claimed as impressive historical evidence.

 

[MadHermit]

I forgot to mention your claim about Thallus's witness to the events of Jesus' crucifixion. Modern scholars don't believe Thallus made any such first century witness. Read why in Richard Carrier's article:

https://infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/thallus.html\

btw. I don't share Carrier's skepticism about the Gospel witness to the earthquake and darkness during Jesus' crucifixion.

 

[obedienttogod]

I forgot to mention your claim about Thallus's witness to the events of Jesus' crucifixion. Modern scholars don't believe Thallus made any such first century witness. Read why in Richard Carrier's article:

https://infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/thallus.html\

btw. I don't share Carrier's skepticism about the Gospel witness to the earthquake and darkness during Jesus' crucifixion.

I am aware of several who use Thallus in this manner. The reason being is most of Thallus work was destroyed when the Ancient Greek Books were under attack and set on fire in the great library. And that is their right to make the claim. But there are a couple of other Greeks on that list I provided who were very familiar with Thallus' work and they added it to their own work.

In my opinion, that is proof enough.



Richard Carrier needs to find himself in an atmosphere like this and get a clue hahahahaha

 

[obedienttogod]

^BTW, that is Ricky Skaggs daughter and she is definitely 100% Holy Spirit filled and Anointed!!

 

[Lanolin]

I dont see your point that believers have to 'apologize' for Jesus existence by using apologetics, if people dont believe and dont want to believe they just wont believe, even if Jesus came and saw them face to face.

We dont need to argue anymore with them, we can just point to the empty tomb, or the shroud, or youself as a living letter of the gospel, or the Bible.

Which was an eyewitness account. If people dont want to believe it is, then they just dont want to believe the truth, thats all.

Maybe they could read the talmud, or Jospehus or even the quaran that talks about Jesus, but they wont come to the truth if they dont trust that the Bible is true.

 

[MadHermit]

Enough of my debunking role!

(8) The Church of the Nativity is built over the grotto which ancient tradition reports as the birthplace of Jesus. The church father Origen (born 185 AD) attests the widespread ancient tradition that Jesus was born in a cave near Bethlehem: "In Bethlehem the cave is pointed out where He was born, and the manger in the cave where He was wrapped in swaddling clothes. And the rumor is in those places, and among foreigners of the Faith, that indeed Jesus was born in this cave who is worshipped and reverenced by the Christians Origen, Against Celsus 1:51)." This tradition seems traceable to the time of the Gospels and is attested by Justin Martyr (100-165 AD) who grew up in nearby Samaria (Dialogue with Trypho 78). This cave was apparently used as manger for livestock and would help explain how the shepherds and the magi were able to find Jesus. This cave may have been adjacent to the house in which Joseph and Mary spent some time. One of my greatest disappointments on my guided tour of Israel was the elimination of a visit to the Church of the Nativity.