The Longsuffering of Our Lord

[posthuman]

I’m not sure what you’re saying brother did Abraham just lay there as dead after God told him what to do ? Or did he obey the lord because he believes what he told him ?

are you referencing this ?

“And when the sun was going down, a deep sleep fell upon Abram; and, lo, an horror of great darkness fell upon him. And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not their's, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; and also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance. ( this is fulfilled in the first parts of exodus 400 years later )

And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full. And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭15:12-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Are you saying God is the smoking furnace and burning lamp? But also did Abraham do his part when God told him where to go and what to do ?

Im sorry brother I’m nOt following what you mean Aside from this part

“A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭8:5‬ ‭

“Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭8:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

which I believe is what your saying and is brilliant

yes, that is the path!

Abraham was in a deep sleep, not passing through the parts with God to confirm the covenant -- God alone fulfilled the terms; appearing in bipartite form - a smoking furnace, the flame hidden but the vapors coming from it giving evidence of what was inside, and a burning torch, bright fire manifestly seen and giving light in darkness - as Jesus Christ, the fullness of God hidden in human form, speaking and working the words and deeds of God, the Spirit testifying of Who He is, revealed in glory at the transfiguration.

Abraham's part was only to believe: the promise to him had no "if you keep these things" like the Law given hundreds of years later to the disobedient, unbelieving children in the wilderness. to us also, "believe" -- not a law of works. not a circumcision of the body but of the heart.

Adam also was in "a deep sleep" in the garden, when God took a part of his side, and formed for him a bride -- a foreshadow of the Lord's side being pierced, and we, His Betrothed Church, becoming a new creation in Him. and to His apostles, Christ said of Lazarus, "he is sleeping" - tho in the body he was dead - until finally because they did not understand Him, He said "he has died"
we also, dead in our trespasses and sin, did nothing to deserve what He did in part for us - coming to earth, born a man, giving His life on the cross for us, rising again so we could live with Him, in Him, through Him.

and no - Abraham did not stand idle, but did what he could to keep the birds from the things God asked of him to prepare, waiting for God to appear, believing He would come, keeping watch. did this keeping watch save him? no! but he did this because he believed - it proves to all who do not see the heart, what is in the heart -- yet God searches the heart, and knows all things, even what He requires and what He overlooks.

excellent reference to Luke 8! and see also Rizpah in 2 Samuel 21!

 

[posthuman]

yet God searches the heart, and knows all things, even what He requires and what He overlooks.

how good He is to us in His mercy!!

what a small thing it is for us to do, to wave our arms feebly at the birds!
did Abraham overcome them? i doubt it! they just fly off! can he chase them through the sky??
but he kept them from spoiling the things God asked of him, as much as he could.

let us do what we are able to do, praying our Lord strengthen us as it pleases Him

 

[Cameron143]

So in your view do you believe no Christian should be involved in any societal decision making bodies from school boards to local government to the presidency.

Do you think we should be like the Amish and live separate from society?

Poor eschatology always leads to poor outcomes. If you listen to people here you will conclude Jesus lost at the cross and wasn't merely bruised.

 

[posthuman]

Poor eschatology always leads to poor outcomes. If you listen to people here you will conclude Jesus lost at the cross and wasn't merely bruised.

He was crucified on the place of the skull of Goliath the Gath
gol-gath-a

crushing the head in victory

He chose this spot. it was no accident or coincidence

 

[Cameron143]

He was crucified on the place of the skull of Goliath the Gath
gol-gath-a

crushing the head in victory

He chose this spot. it was no accident or coincidence

I agree. Also, things changed shortly before and after the cross. Satan was bounced from heaven. Jesus declared He would build His church and hell was defenseless against it. He tells His disciples He possesses all power and authority. And He shows up with the keys to death and hell on His key chain.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

yes, that is the path!

Abraham was in a deep sleep, not passing through the parts with God to confirm the covenant -- God alone fulfilled the terms; appearing in bipartite form - a smoking furnace, the flame hidden but the vapors coming from it giving evidence of what was inside, and a burning torch, bright fire manifestly seen and giving light in darkness - as Jesus Christ, the fullness of God hidden in human form, speaking and working the words and deeds of God, the Spirit testifying of Who He is, revealed in glory at the transfiguration.

Abraham's part was only to believe: the promise to him had no "if you keep these things" like the Law given hundreds of years later to the disobedient, unbelieving children in the wilderness. to us also, "believe" -- not a law of works. not a circumcision of the body but of the heart.

Adam also was in "a deep sleep" in the garden, when God took a part of his side, and formed for him a bride -- a foreshadow of the Lord's side being pierced, and we, His Betrothed Church, becoming a new creation in Him. and to His apostles, Christ said of Lazarus, "he is sleeping" - tho in the body he was dead - until finally because they did not understand Him, He said "he has died"
we also, dead in our trespasses and sin, did nothing to deserve what He did in part for us - coming to earth, born a man, giving His life on the cross for us, rising again so we could live with Him, in Him, through Him.

and no - Abraham did not stand idle, but did what he could to keep the birds from the things God asked of him to prepare, waiting for God to appear, believing He would come, keeping watch. did this keeping watch save him? no! but he did this because he believed - it proves to all who do not see the heart, what is in the heart -- yet God searches the heart, and knows all things, even what He requires and what He overlooks.

excellent reference to Luke 8! and see also Rizpah in 2 Samuel 21!

Love the read brother !!

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I agree. Also, things changed shortly before and after the cross. Satan was bounced from heaven. Jesus declared He would build His church and hell was defenseless against it. He tells His disciples He possesses all power and authority. And He shows up with the keys to death and hell on His key chain.

“and she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. ( israel was expecting the son messiah to be born and was going through the pains God foretold of his birth )

And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. ”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:2-4 KJV‬‬



But what ended up happening was Jesus was born and Satan failed to destroy him , tempt him jesus overcame and he was given all dominion in heaven and earth (see Matthew 28:18-20) and he was taken up to heaven to rule his kingdom until the end of the earth when he will return from heaven

And she brought forth a man child, ( Jesus was finally born ) who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron see psalms 2 , Daniel 7:10-12, Luke chapter 1 ) and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.( see mark 16:19)
Revelation‬ ‭12:5

what I’m saying is when God began to reveal his eternal plan for Christ Jesus to redeem mankind and save us from our sins , Satan and a third of the angels rebelled against this plan to save man who had sinned and fallen from grace o Satan tries to destroy Jesus when he was born through Herod , tried to tempt Jesus after his baptism , and through the many Pharisees teachers lawyers and preists who tempted and argued and condemned him eventually with false accusations then he entered Judas and betrayed Jesus to ignore his feast suffering trying to break him still to his last breath “ it is finished “ and Jesus had won the history over death and he’ll and the grace and offers eternal life to all who believe the spoils of his victory freely offered to believers

things seemed to change when man finally had all sinned and God declared his plan from before creation to redeem them through Christ it seems this ignited a rebellion in heaven trying to stop Gods plan from bieng accomplished on earth and this then led to the war Heaven after Christ is seated on the throne when Micheal becomes the warrior fighting for Christ and dispels Satan and his corrupt angels out forever doomed to Matthew 25s revelation that awaits them

 

[Cameron143]

“and she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. ( israel was expecting the son messiah to be born and was going through the pains God foretold of his birth )

And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. ”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:2-4 KJV‬‬



But what ended up happening was Jesus was born and Satan failed to destroy him , tempt him jesus overcame and he was given all dominion in heaven and earth (see Matthew 28:18-20) and he was taken up to heaven to rule his kingdom until the end of the earth when he will return from heaven

And she brought forth a man child, ( Jesus was finally born ) who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron see psalms 2 , Daniel 7:10-12, Luke chapter 1 ) and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.( see mark 16:19)
Revelation‬ ‭12:5

what I’m saying is when God began to reveal his eternal plan for Christ Jesus to redeem mankind and save us from our sins , Satan and a third of the angels rebelled against this plan to save man who had sinned and fallen from grace o Satan tries to destroy Jesus when he was born through Herod , tried to tempt Jesus after his baptism , and through the many Pharisees teachers lawyers and preists who tempted and argued and condemned him eventually with false accusations then he entered Judas and betrayed Jesus to ignore his feast suffering trying to break him still to his last breath “ it is finished “ and Jesus had won the history over death and he’ll and the grace and offers eternal life to all who believe the spoils of his victory freely offered to believers

things seemed to change when man finally had all sinned and God declared his plan from before creation to redeem them through Christ it seems this ignited a rebellion in heaven trying to stop Gods plan from bieng accomplished on earth and this then led to the war Heaven after Christ is seated on the throne when Micheal becomes the warrior fighting for Christ and dispels Satan and his corrupt angels out forever doomed to Matthew 25s revelation that awaits them

I'm just pointing out how the strongman has been shackled by the victory at the cross and how that was evidenced starting shortly before the cross. While victory was promised in Genesis, it is accomplished and evidenced at the cross.

 

[posthuman]

Satan was bounced from heaven.

Not sure when this happens. he was in the garden. Ezekiel talks about him falling in past tense. Jesus says He watched him thrown to the ground. In Job, he hasn't been in heaven, but wandering the earth looking to see who/what he can devour.

im inclined to believe there was a garden before Adam, that Satan presided in as Adam in the creation we live in. the angels were created before the days of the creation of man, Proverbs says they watched that happen.

Satan surely fell before Genesis 3 - how long do you figure he stays in heaven in a fallen state? what do you figure his reaction is to witnessing the creation of mankind? as Revelation says, he tries to devour us: Revelation man's is explicit that Adam is a type, testifying of Christ.

 

[Cameron143]

Not sure when this happens. he was in the garden. Ezekiel talks about him falling. Jesus says He watched him thrown to the ground. In Job, he hasn't been in heaven, but wandering the earth looking to see who/what he can devour.

Luke 10:18. Shortly before the cross.

 

[posthuman]

Revelation man's is explicit that Adam is a type, testifying of Christ.

*Romans is explicit

 

[posthuman]

Luke 10:18.

Is Jesus saying this just happened a minute ago?
Or declaring His deity - because who else saw this but God and the angels?

next thing He says in v. 19 is that He gives the disciples authority over demons: how has He got this authority to give? because He happened to be watching the sky 5min before when no one else was? or did He just say how He has that authority, because He was in heaven watching it happen, long ago, willing it to happen, even commanding it, the Ancient of Days?

 

[posthuman]

which came first: time, or the angels?

If the angels came before the creation of time, did Satan fall before or after time?

 

[Cameron143]

Is Jesus saying this just happened a minute ago?
Or declaring His deity - because who else saw this but God and the angels?

next thing He says in v. 19 is that He gives the disciples authority over demons: how has He got this authority to give? because He happened to be watching the sky 5min before when no one else was? or did He just say how He has that authority, because He was in heaven watching it happen, long ago, willing it to happen, even commanding it, the Ancient of Days?

It doesn't have to be literal. It could have just been communicated by the Father. I never made the connection to what comes next, but it does give credence to a restructuring of power.

 

[posthuman]

Is Jesus saying this just happened a minute ago?
Or declaring His deity - because who else saw this but God and the angels?

next thing He says in v. 19 is that He gives the disciples authority over demons: how has He got this authority to give? because He happened to be watching the sky 5min before when no one else was? or did He just say how He has that authority, because He was in heaven watching it happen, long ago, willing it to happen, even commanding it, the Ancient of Days?

note that in Luke 10 first He sends out the 79, then they come back amazed saying LORD! even the demons are subject to us in Your name

THEN He says He saw Satan fall, and behold! has given them authority over the enemy.

Is He saying that gift of authority just now happened? clearly not - they come back saying wow we have authority apparently?!
so He is speaking of things that He has already done at an undetermined time in the past, not about things happening as He says them.

 

[posthuman]

I never made the connection to what comes next, but it does give credence to a restructuring of power.

yes, and that happened before He said it to them.

No reason to think Satan was cast to the earth 10 min before He mentions it. in fact, the weight of evidence is I think that happened prior to Genesis 3. most likely between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2

welcome to the gap theory lol

 

[posthuman]

the only time we see Satan in heaven outside of the vision in Revelation is in Ezekiel recounting past events, when Satan walked among fiery stones in the garden of God, which sure doesn't sound like the garden in Genesis 2, and in Job when he is summoned to present himself, and forced to confess that he hasn't been in heaven at all but wandering the earth.

Revelation describes him being cast out and at that time sweeping 1/3 of the angels with him. so, Genesis 6 for example - this is after Satan is cast out, not before.

How are there demons on earth possessing people if they are not even cast out of heaven yet?

 

[Cameron143]

yes, and that happened before He said it to them.

No reason to think Satan was cast to the earth 10 min before He mentions it. in fact, the weight of evidence is I think that happened prior to Genesis 3. most likely between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2

welcome to the gap theory lol

Lol. I'm disinclined to believe the Genesis timetable because of the Book of Job.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I'm just pointing out how the strongman has been shackled by the victory at the cross and how that was evidenced starting shortly before the cross. While victory was promised in Genesis, it is accomplished and evidenced at the cross.

Yes dear brother I understand what I’m saying is this is instruction to the church after the “cross” that we should grasp our part in this war and our need to follow Jesus to victory because of what he did for us on the cross

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: ( he’s freely roaming upon earth he’s only bound and done in heaven )

whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭5:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

See what I’m getting at ? This is bc this to accept and begin to grasp and believe because of what Jesus did at Calvary even though we don’t physically see it

“Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. ( he’s active against us an enemy trying to destroy us )

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. ( see how the war isn’t finished for us but we’re being called to arms and given the battle plan for life in this world being prepared and it’s being revealed what’s really happening that we can’t see )

Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. ( he’s shooting at us in other words he’s active against us we have to be aware and start fighting in faith )


And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭6:10-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s all I was saying brother just adding to what you said not disparaging or misunderstanding just saying we do have an active and powerful enemy working against us on earth trying to blind us to the truth of the gospel to keep us from hearing believing the truth and being saved

See this is what I quoted this part

After Jesus went into heaven this happened but notice that heaven is celebrating because the victory has come in heaven and they are celebrating who believed in heaven but notice now the earth and all who dwell here are told “woe unto you for Satan has come down to you and just lost his part in heaven and is raging with wrath and anger and he knows he’s on an expiring clock before Jesus comes and reigns also upon earth as he does now in heaven

what your saying applies to heaven but notice the earth and its disposition and situation now after the cross and Jesus ascention to heavens throne

“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.


Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


And the dragon ( the devil ) was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” ( the church )
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:10-12, 17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we are still on earth it’s why Paul and Peter are explaining that the devil is our enemy and is at war with us the church and they are telling us to suit up with his armor pick up our shield of faith and take up our sword and start wielding Gods power that he’s given us as stewards to overcome the enemy by faith through hearing theses things our lord and his apostles taught us and accepting them as the truth so we start taking it seriously and become living and active soldiers in this war


The modern grace message of how we don’t have to do our part because of the cross brother is a powerful delusion and disagrees with the birth hints they actually were teaching was my point ( not that you are saying th at or anything but it is prevelant in modern doctrine

“ Jesus died and rose now you don’t have to hear him and believe what he said bout salvstion anymore his words won’t come to pass now your already saved there’s nothing to do , there is no enemy fighting against you trying to steal your soul ect it all works against the things the apostles just wrote plainly

Like those two short examples above one from Paul the other from Peter

 

[Cameron143]

Yes dear brother I understand what I’m saying is this is instruction to the church after the “cross” that we should grasp our part in this war and our need to follow Jesus to victory because of what he did for us on the cross

“Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: ( he’s freely roaming upon earth he’s only bound and done in heaven )

whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.”
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭5:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

See what I’m getting at ? This is bc this to accept and begin to grasp and believe because of what Jesus did at Calvary even though we don’t physically see it

“Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. ( he’s active against us an enemy trying to destroy us )

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. ( see how the war isn’t finished for us but we’re being called to arms and given the battle plan for life in this world being prepared and it’s being revealed what’s really happening that we can’t see )

Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; and your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. ( he’s shooting at us in other words he’s active against us we have to be aware and start fighting in faith )


And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭6:10-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s all I was saying brother just adding to what you said not disparaging or misunderstanding just saying we do have an active and powerful enemy working against us on earth trying to blind us to the truth of the gospel to keep us from hearing believing the truth and being saved

See this is what I quoted this part

After Jesus went into heaven this happened but notice that heaven is celebrating because the victory has come in heaven and they are celebrating who believed in heaven but notice now the earth and all who dwell here are told “woe unto you for Satan has come down to you and just lost his part in heaven and is raging with wrath and anger and he knows he’s on an expiring clock before Jesus comes and reigns also upon earth as he does now in heaven

what your saying applies to heaven but notice the earth and its disposition and situation now after the cross and Jesus ascention to heavens throne

“And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them.


Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.


And the dragon ( the devil ) was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” ( the church )
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭12:10-12, 17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we are still on earth it’s why Paul and Peter are explaining that the devil is our enemy and is at war with us the church and they are telling us to suit up with his armor pick up our shield of faith and take up our sword and start wielding Gods power that he’s given us as stewards to overcome the enemy by faith through hearing theses things our lord and his apostles taught us and accepting them as the truth so we start taking it seriously and become living and active soldiers in this war


The modern grace message of how we don’t have to do our part because of the cross brother is a powerful delusion and disagrees with the birth hints they actually were teaching was my point ( not that you are saying th at or anything but it is prevelant in modern doctrine

“ Jesus died and rose now you don’t have to hear him and believe what he said bout salvstion anymore his words won’t come to pass now your already saved there’s nothing to do , there is no enemy fighting against you trying to steal your soul ect it all works against the things the apostles just wrote plainly

Like those two short examples above one from Paul the other from Peter

Sure. I'm just saying we are already victorious.