The main reason there can never be true unity between Catholics and Christians
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Agreed, Brother. The Lord knows His own in whichever denomination they are, and I too believe there are Good Christians who've accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior in many denominations.
I go to non-denominational Ecumenical Christian fellowships sometimes. We go around singing Christ-Mas Carols, and have Easter festivals, spreading the Good News of Jesus Christ, and God's Love, to our mostly Hindu and Muslims friends here in India. I'm not indifferent to Theological Differences, have had Seminary Education, and am happy to discuss it if someone wants. But by God's Grace, I get along well with Christians from other denominations IRL and they get along well with me. I just read on another thread here that someone "hates going to Church". I'm convinced a large part of the reason for that is that many Christians have no idea Holy Communion is Literal Communion with Christ's Body and Blood. If we really believed this, no one would be able to stop us from going to Church, even every day when it is possible.
Now, the first thing is, since many of the others are speaking about Muslims and Catholic-Muslim inter-faith dialogue, the Catholic Church still clearly teaches believing in Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation: "161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" [Heb 11:6] and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'" [Mat 24:13] http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/161.htm Nowhere does the CCC say Muslims can be saved, or they have the Holy Spirit etc. It just says they profess to worship the God of Abraham (which they do) and they respect Jesus and Mary etc, that they fast etc. But, as shown above, the Catechism clearly says faith in the Father and the Son is needed for salvation.
And, to reply to Ted: I have bolded some parts in your quote
Ok, one can read it as transformed, and the meaning wouldn't change.
It says, (1) The Bread and Wine is called Eucharist (a Biblical Greek Word meaning "Thanksgiving"). (2) we do not receive it as common fod and drink. but as (3) Jesus Christ took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also they had been taught (by the Apostles) that the food consecrated by the prayers is the flesh and blood of the Incarnate Jesus. That seems very clear to me, Ted. I'm not sure how the word transformation in the non-bolded portion above changes the meaning. Your thoughts on the bolded part? God Bless.
Another article on Justin Martyr's words on the Eucharist here: https://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/media/articles/sunday-eucharist-in-the-early-church/ Btw, Justin Martyr, who lived in the 2nd century, also shows the Early Church had already begun Sunday Worship.
[Edit: Brief Excerpt from the link, "Justin here describes the way the Sunday Eucharist was celebrated in Rome about 150 AD about 50-60 years after the last New Testament books. It shows that: 1) the Eucharist was interpreted in a very realistic way in the early church, the bread and wine becoming the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ; 2) it was the principal, weekly worship celebration of the Christian community; 3) it took place on Sunday, not on Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath; and 4) the meaning of the Eucharist and manner of its celebration was handed down by the apostles."]
In Christ,
Xavier.
I go to non-denominational Ecumenical Christian fellowships sometimes. We go around singing Christ-Mas Carols, and have Easter festivals, spreading the Good News of Jesus Christ, and God's Love, to our mostly Hindu and Muslims friends here in India. I'm not indifferent to Theological Differences, have had Seminary Education, and am happy to discuss it if someone wants. But by God's Grace, I get along well with Christians from other denominations IRL and they get along well with me. I just read on another thread here that someone "hates going to Church". I'm convinced a large part of the reason for that is that many Christians have no idea Holy Communion is Literal Communion with Christ's Body and Blood. If we really believed this, no one would be able to stop us from going to Church, even every day when it is possible.
Now, the first thing is, since many of the others are speaking about Muslims and Catholic-Muslim inter-faith dialogue, the Catholic Church still clearly teaches believing in Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation: "161 Believing in Jesus Christ and in the One who sent him for our salvation is necessary for obtaining that salvation. "Since "without faith it is impossible to please [God]" [Heb 11:6] and to attain to the fellowship of his sons, therefore without faith no one has ever attained justification, nor will anyone obtain eternal life 'But he who endures to the end.'" [Mat 24:13] http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/para/161.htm Nowhere does the CCC say Muslims can be saved, or they have the Holy Spirit etc. It just says they profess to worship the God of Abraham (which they do) and they respect Jesus and Mary etc, that they fast etc. But, as shown above, the Catechism clearly says faith in the Father and the Son is needed for salvation.
And, to reply to Ted: I have bolded some parts in your quote
Ok, one can read it as transformed, and the meaning wouldn't change.
It says, (1) The Bread and Wine is called Eucharist (a Biblical Greek Word meaning "Thanksgiving"). (2) we do not receive it as common fod and drink. but as (3) Jesus Christ took flesh and blood for our salvation, so also they had been taught (by the Apostles) that the food consecrated by the prayers is the flesh and blood of the Incarnate Jesus. That seems very clear to me, Ted. I'm not sure how the word transformation in the non-bolded portion above changes the meaning. Your thoughts on the bolded part? God Bless.
Another article on Justin Martyr's words on the Eucharist here: https://www.crossroadsinitiative.com/media/articles/sunday-eucharist-in-the-early-church/ Btw, Justin Martyr, who lived in the 2nd century, also shows the Early Church had already begun Sunday Worship.
[Edit: Brief Excerpt from the link, "Justin here describes the way the Sunday Eucharist was celebrated in Rome about 150 AD about 50-60 years after the last New Testament books. It shows that: 1) the Eucharist was interpreted in a very realistic way in the early church, the bread and wine becoming the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ; 2) it was the principal, weekly worship celebration of the Christian community; 3) it took place on Sunday, not on Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath; and 4) the meaning of the Eucharist and manner of its celebration was handed down by the apostles."]
In Christ,
Xavier.
If you had been involved, you would have better insight into the "institution" of the RC church over time and the individual people.
And I disagree they have a "different Jesus."
What they have is a tradition that has been placed on the same level as divine revelation.
Unlike cults like Mormonism and JW they do teach Jesus is God and the Saviour of the world.
There is no "unity" across the various denominations that is why they exist.
I think when there is this attack on one denomination when there exist more progressive liberal churches that just are just as removed from biblical teaching but in a different way your attack on the RC church comes across as very personal and as @ChristianTonyB stated as a "contentious spirit."
The combination is truth spoken in love.
And I disagree they have a "different Jesus."
What they have is a tradition that has been placed on the same level as divine revelation.
Unlike cults like Mormonism and JW they do teach Jesus is God and the Saviour of the world.
There is no "unity" across the various denominations that is why they exist.
I think when there is this attack on one denomination when there exist more progressive liberal churches that just are just as removed from biblical teaching but in a different way your attack on the RC church comes across as very personal and as @ChristianTonyB stated as a "contentious spirit."
The combination is truth spoken in love.
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I guess that I can understand your point of view about not wanting to extend the hand of fellowship to Catholics if you think that their view of Christ is so different than ours. But I don't see it quite so clear cut. I too, was raised Catholic and was abused by a priest at 11 y/o. I left them long ago... the priest went on to become an aux. bishop of Baltimore, MD. and was finally accused but died during the trials. So, I have no love for horrid history of the RCC's system.
Like others here, I was young when I was Catholic and hardly understood much about the things they taught... just did them b/c I was told to. Over time, and getting into the bible, I learned how much error there was, and it's systemic. They indoctrinate the young that way. And in my mind, most of the RCC's congregants are unknowledgeable about why they do what they do. The histories that they learn are all corrupted by the RCC, and it's difficult to clearly read any historical accounts on any subject because so much of it has rewritten through the lens/spin that the RCC has put on it.
But there's a clear difference between the hierarchy of the RCC and the common parishioner. The people in the pews are deceived and unknowing... much like any human before God opens their eyes. They've been told for so long that what the pope says is God's declaration for all peoples... so they believe that in doing things the Catholic way is doing things God's way. I don't think that telling folks "You're wrong and going to hell." is the best approach. I prefer to show them the difference between Truth and the RCC lies, and pray to God to open their eyes. Humans can't do that, see?
In short, I'd encourage you/all of us, to take them at their word when they claim to be Christian... however, tell them that you disagree. Leave it at that.
In discussions, point out where their beliefs are incorrect, gently. Some ppl. on this site have refuted clear historical accuracy that is RCC-based. Anyone can just Wiki that crud, easy-peasy. That type of thing will eat at them, if we pray for it.
Remember though, Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead... but what did the "Jews" do? They considered that miracle as the last-straw for Him... Jesus had to die. They had hardened-hearts to Truth.
Sometimes that's going to be the case... very often in-fact. But causing anger even if your intentions are good; well the Scriptures say "For as the churning of milk yields butter, and the twisting of the nose draws blood, so the stirring of anger brings forth strife.”
Like others here, I was young when I was Catholic and hardly understood much about the things they taught... just did them b/c I was told to. Over time, and getting into the bible, I learned how much error there was, and it's systemic. They indoctrinate the young that way. And in my mind, most of the RCC's congregants are unknowledgeable about why they do what they do. The histories that they learn are all corrupted by the RCC, and it's difficult to clearly read any historical accounts on any subject because so much of it has rewritten through the lens/spin that the RCC has put on it.
But there's a clear difference between the hierarchy of the RCC and the common parishioner. The people in the pews are deceived and unknowing... much like any human before God opens their eyes. They've been told for so long that what the pope says is God's declaration for all peoples... so they believe that in doing things the Catholic way is doing things God's way. I don't think that telling folks "You're wrong and going to hell." is the best approach. I prefer to show them the difference between Truth and the RCC lies, and pray to God to open their eyes. Humans can't do that, see?
In short, I'd encourage you/all of us, to take them at their word when they claim to be Christian... however, tell them that you disagree. Leave it at that.
In discussions, point out where their beliefs are incorrect, gently. Some ppl. on this site have refuted clear historical accuracy that is RCC-based. Anyone can just Wiki that crud, easy-peasy. That type of thing will eat at them, if we pray for it.
Remember though, Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead... but what did the "Jews" do? They considered that miracle as the last-straw for Him... Jesus had to die. They had hardened-hearts to Truth.
Sometimes that's going to be the case... very often in-fact. But causing anger even if your intentions are good; well the Scriptures say "For as the churning of milk yields butter, and the twisting of the nose draws blood, so the stirring of anger brings forth strife.”
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I have no axe to grind. I've never been a Catholic (thankfully), but you don't have to be a Catholic or former Catholic to know what they teach. That's why it makes no difference at all who the messenger is, but it's the message that's important.
Okay, so you're okay with a "Jesus" who is literally embodied in a wafer and is sacrificed over and over at every mass. Just for the record, that's your position.
Okay, so you're okay with a "Jesus" who is literally embodied in a wafer and is sacrificed over and over at every mass. Just for the record, that's your position.
Seems in re-scanning the thread we have one member who distorts Scripture one that points out distortions.
ResidentAlien is declaring the Word of God and fellow believers are angry with him?
Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Gen_3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
ResidentAlien is declaring the Word of God and fellow believers are angry with him?
Isa 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!
Gen_3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
Compromising with evil/sin just gets more evil and sinful example :
https://juicyecumenism.com/2019/10/29/queer-hymns/
Hymn Society Releases “Queer Hymns” for LGBTQIA2S+
https://juicyecumenism.com/2019/10/29/queer-hymns/
Hymn Society Releases “Queer Hymns” for LGBTQIA2S+
^^^ That's not Catholic, Beckie. It says: "Anglican Journal, the publication of the Anglican Church of Canada, publicized the songs, which were promptly shared online by the U.S.-based Episcopal Church. Both of the neighboring churches regularly promote LGBT causes throughout the worldwide Anglican Communion, but some of the hymns trample on a number of core Christian teachings, in addition to revisionist gender identity and human sexuality."
Agreed, Magenta. God Bless.
Agreed, Magenta. God Bless.
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Wow RA has found another group to "alienate" that aren't going to heaven in his opinion. Starting to wonder if RA will even allow himself into heaven at this point.
Of course according to RA, i am not saved for i have the Gift of Speaking in Tongues from the HOLY SPIRIT.
Th OP is correct - however, God alone knows the heart of a man and therefore i do believe some catholics are saved the same way as all of us = thru faith in the Word.
With that said = very few.
Same goes for all denominations = Baptists, Lutherans, Pentecostals, etc, etc.
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“If you were in a cult that taught Jesus wasn't perfect and sinless, and you came to know otherwise, would you stay and participate with that group knowing in your heart it wasn't teaching the true Jesus?”
I would never be in a cult lol but Catholics believe that too ? Can I ask how you have come to all these conclusions about what Catholics believe ?
like I was saying of myself I’m not catholic , and not an expert on Catholicism but I’ve never heard any catholic and I’ve known quite a few , never heard them say any of the things your saying they believe is the thing
it seems like if they believe what your saying they would be in trouble but I’m not sure you understand what the y believe is all
I’m saying almost like your saying things and then crediting it to Catholicism but why don’t any Catholics say they believe that stuff ?
to talk with a devout catholic , seems like they believe basically the same things most denominations do
again I have other issues like priests bekng called father , then changing the Ten Commandments to allow for idols in worship ect also thier confession system , thoer honoring of Mary in prayer and praying to saints ect ect
but I don’t think they actually believe some of what your saying they do at least I’ve never heard any Catholics make any of those claims
either way though I appreciate the conversation
I would never be in a cult lol but Catholics believe that too ? Can I ask how you have come to all these conclusions about what Catholics believe ?
like I was saying of myself I’m not catholic , and not an expert on Catholicism but I’ve never heard any catholic and I’ve known quite a few , never heard them say any of the things your saying they believe is the thing
it seems like if they believe what your saying they would be in trouble but I’m not sure you understand what the y believe is all
I’m saying almost like your saying things and then crediting it to Catholicism but why don’t any Catholics say they believe that stuff ?
to talk with a devout catholic , seems like they believe basically the same things most denominations do
again I have other issues like priests bekng called father , then changing the Ten Commandments to allow for idols in worship ect also thier confession system , thoer honoring of Mary in prayer and praying to saints ect ect
but I don’t think they actually believe some of what your saying they do at least I’ve never heard any Catholics make any of those claims
either way though I appreciate the conversation
ahh lol even though I’ve said many times I’m no catholic expert ? Yep that’s a claim of expertise I guess lol
all I’m saying is I think you’ve come to some erroneous conclusions about Catholics
and it seems like your convinced so thanks for the conversation either way . It’s much better to judge people by what they themselves do and say rather than by a label of one of several denominations that were never meant to be
each person catholic , Protestant , Baptist whatever thier label has to do this
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
2 Corinthians 5:10-11 KJV
he’s not going to ask what denomination thier from but is going to judge thier life's work according to his word denominations have no real place in Christianity but believers do regardless of their labels
all I’m saying is I think you’ve come to some erroneous conclusions about Catholics
and it seems like your convinced so thanks for the conversation either way . It’s much better to judge people by what they themselves do and say rather than by a label of one of several denominations that were never meant to be
each person catholic , Protestant , Baptist whatever thier label has to do this
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
2 Corinthians 5:10-11 KJV
he’s not going to ask what denomination thier from but is going to judge thier life's work according to his word denominations have no real place in Christianity but believers do regardless of their labels