The Millennium literal or symbolic?
- Thread starter Locutus
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Agreed. Understanding that separation from God is spiritual death is the biggest thing lost on the pre-tribber, futurists, etc. Unless one recognizes that Adam died spiritually in the Garden and was separated from God and that this was the thing that was broken, then restored by Christ in the "restoration of all things" in 70 AD, the blindness about everything else will continue.
4,000 years of earth history being separated from God in the spiritual sense, and not thorns, weeds and hard labor, was the real consequence of the original sin. This is the pretty much the point of the whole Bible and purpose of our faith, that being that Christ restored us by removing our sin and thus our separation allowing us to again be with God now spiritually which of course carries over in eternity.
The futurists are still waiting for an earthly utopia, missing the spiritual utopia, which literally is EVERYTHING!!!
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Claiming Revelation was fulfilled in 70 AD ignores the simple fact that John wrote it in 90 to 100 AD. Please explain why you people who keep pushing this concept keep ignoring the fact that Revelation was written decades after 70 AD. I have pointed this out earlier and it is ignored. Your supposed knowledge of history is flawed by ignoring the date Revelation was written. That simple fact throws your belief into the garbage can.
LOOK AT ALL FACTS ABOUT TIMING OF REVELATION BEING WRITTEN AND THE EVENTS YOU TALK ABOUT.
LOOK AT ALL FACTS ABOUT TIMING OF REVELATION BEING WRITTEN AND THE EVENTS YOU TALK ABOUT.
There are no historical first-hand accounts that Revelation was written in the 90s AD. You have only one second hand account by a writer from nearly a century later who makes a vague and uncertain statement:
Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30).
From this statement, many others have concluded that Revelation was written during the reign of Domitian citing Irenaeus. Thus, this is NOT eyewitness testimony. It is hearsay and would be inadmissible in any court in America. It could be that Irenaeus misunderstood Polycarp or that his quote meant that what was being revealed to the churches, wasn't seen until John was released in 98 AD.
Domitian quickly regretted his persecution of the churches and quickly stopped the practice while Nero, was called, "the Beast" by many of his days and he relished in killing Christians.
I have studied this issue extensively and there is substantial evidence that John was vanquished to Patmos during the reign of Nero, and not Domitian. The Bible leaves no doubt that the "great tribulation" spoken of by Jesus occurred to Jerusalem in 70 AD. There can't even be a debate about this nor can there be any debate that the presence (or parousia) of Christ returned then as recorded by Josephus. Rev 1:7, 11:1, Mt 24:34 and so many other places also make this absolutely clear.
Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30).
From this statement, many others have concluded that Revelation was written during the reign of Domitian citing Irenaeus. Thus, this is NOT eyewitness testimony. It is hearsay and would be inadmissible in any court in America. It could be that Irenaeus misunderstood Polycarp or that his quote meant that what was being revealed to the churches, wasn't seen until John was released in 98 AD.
Domitian quickly regretted his persecution of the churches and quickly stopped the practice while Nero, was called, "the Beast" by many of his days and he relished in killing Christians.
I have studied this issue extensively and there is substantial evidence that John was vanquished to Patmos during the reign of Nero, and not Domitian. The Bible leaves no doubt that the "great tribulation" spoken of by Jesus occurred to Jerusalem in 70 AD. There can't even be a debate about this nor can there be any debate that the presence (or parousia) of Christ returned then as recorded by Josephus. Rev 1:7, 11:1, Mt 24:34 and so many other places also make this absolutely clear.
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You seem to be in a minority view of this. Most adhere to the following.
Early Church tradition dates the book to end of the emperor Domitian (reigned AD 81–96), and most modern scholars agree, although the author may have written a first version under Vespasian (AD 69–79) and updated it under Domitian.
Early Church tradition dates the book to end of the emperor Domitian (reigned AD 81–96), and most modern scholars agree, although the author may have written a first version under Vespasian (AD 69–79) and updated it under Domitian.
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The problem is there are many lies spread about the Bible. There was an attempt to create a "new found gospel". The problem is that all books of the Bible are self proving. Details about dress, housing, customs, vegetation, etc. prove the time and place it was written. Using that evidence that new gospel was written in Spain in the middle ages. While someone found it the evidence proved it an old fake.
Brother PlainWord,
The best evidence that the book of Revelation was written after 70 AD is in the book itself.
The scroll of the 7 seals could not be opened until after the power of the holy people had been scattered.
This is what the angel says in Dan. 12:4-7.
He is saying that the first 3 1/2 times is from Babylon (the time of his statement) until the power of the holy people is scattered, 70 AD.
And the little scroll mentioned in v 4, cannot be opened until the time of the end and the scattering had been accomplished.
So the time of the end mentioned in Dan was after 70 AD.
That began the second 3 1/2 times, which was from 70 AD until Israel was restored to Jerusalem in 1967.
The little scroll, Rev 5:1 & Rev 11:1-13, tells the second half of the story of the people of Israel from 70 AD until the Rap/Resur/end of the planet, coming soon.
The scroll of the 7 seals could not be opened until after that time, 70 AD.
The best evidence that the book of Revelation was written after 70 AD is in the book itself.
The scroll of the 7 seals could not be opened until after the power of the holy people had been scattered.
This is what the angel says in Dan. 12:4-7.
He is saying that the first 3 1/2 times is from Babylon (the time of his statement) until the power of the holy people is scattered, 70 AD.
And the little scroll mentioned in v 4, cannot be opened until the time of the end and the scattering had been accomplished.
So the time of the end mentioned in Dan was after 70 AD.
That began the second 3 1/2 times, which was from 70 AD until Israel was restored to Jerusalem in 1967.
The little scroll, Rev 5:1 & Rev 11:1-13, tells the second half of the story of the people of Israel from 70 AD until the Rap/Resur/end of the planet, coming soon.
The scroll of the 7 seals could not be opened until after that time, 70 AD.
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
The 70 weeks ended with the destruction of Daniel's "thy holy city" and is exactly when the power of Daniel's "thy people" was scattered in the war of 66-70AD
The 70 weeks ended with the destruction of Daniel's "thy holy city" and is exactly when the power of Daniel's "thy people" was scattered in the war of 66-70AD
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I agree with your statement.
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But the scattering didn't end at 70 AD., it continued until 1967 when Israel was restored to Jerusalem.
And the time mentioned by the angel in Dan. 12, is not 3 1/2 literal years, but the time from Babylon until 70 AD.
It is only half of the 7 times, only part of the picture, the complete 7 times.
I agree with your statement.
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But the scattering didn't end at 70 AD., it continued until 1967 when Israel was restored to Jerusalem.
And the time mentioned by the angel in Dan. 12, is not 3 1/2 literal years, but the time from Babylon until 70 AD.
It is only half of the 7 times, only part of the picture, the complete 7 times.
Yes they are ruling in the spiritual kingdom now - the "millennium" though was a specific period that ran until the old covenant ended with the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem.
This is the time Paul spoke of in the casting out of the children of Hagar:
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Until the casting out there were two groups claiming to be the children/people of God - the destruction of Jerusalem in the war of 66-70AD put that to rest forever.
This is the time Paul spoke of in the casting out of the children of Hagar:
Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
Until the casting out there were two groups claiming to be the children/people of God - the destruction of Jerusalem in the war of 66-70AD put that to rest forever.
The consensus of most people is always in flux and is not indicator of facts or truth.
If you want to read a very good defense of the pre-70 AD writing of the book of revelation have a read at this free book in pdf form.
http://www.garynorth.com/freebooks/docs/pdf/before_jerusalem_fell.pdf
If you want to read a very good defense of the pre-70 AD writing of the book of revelation have a read at this free book in pdf form.
http://www.garynorth.com/freebooks/docs/pdf/before_jerusalem_fell.pdf