The modern church and the "Sinners Prayer"- True or false teaching?

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SovereignGrace

Senior Member
Dec 28, 2016
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#81
i'm reading the whole chapter; you're reading one verse without context.

who's "playing games" ?
My $ is on it being you who is playing...



You really need to eat something. You're looking rather gaunt.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
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#82
i'm reading the whole chapter; you're reading one verse without context.

who's "playing games" ?
p...,

The verse stands alone.
The chapter balance has nothing to do with the point. If you think so, post it and make your case.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#83
p...,

The verse stands alone.
The chapter balance has nothing to do with the point. If you think so, post it and make your case.

do you think that one misquoted sentence fragment in the Bible commonly contradicts everything else around it?
 
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#84
As far as a deal for the truth goes, be careful not to mix it with the slightest amount of pride it will hinder the deliveries impact
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
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#85
do you think that one misquoted sentence fragment in the Bible commonly contradicts everything else around it?
p...,
Why are you trying to spin it...make your case. You haven't because I doubt you can.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,978
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#86
p...,
Why are you trying to spin it...make your case. You haven't because I doubt you can.
do you trust Him or not?

And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.
Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.
(Hebrews 10:17-18)
 

AngelFrog

Senior Member
Feb 16, 2015
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#87
okay, just to be clear, for bookkeeping, Froggy said this:......
The Word gave us the word. No one comes to God except through the gate, Immanuel, "God (in the flesh) with us".
I think confusion arises in those who read the Bible due to their reading it for what it is saying word for word, as they would any book they study from. When Jesus, Immanuel, told us, he teaches in parables:: Matthew 13:13 "Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."Matthew 13. "(a) The parable always makes truth concrete. There are very few people who can grasp and understand abstract ideas; most people think in pictures. We could for long enough try to put into words what beauty is, and at the end of it no one would be very much the wiser; but if we can point at someone and say, "That is a beautiful person," no more description is needed. We might try for long enough to define goodness and in the end leave no clear idea of goodness in people's minds; but everyone recognizes a good person and good deed when he sees them. In order to be understood, every great word must become flesh, every great idea must take form and shape in a person; and the first great quality of a parable is that it makes truth into a picture which all men can see and understand. "

The obvious net-trolls are omitted from this observation for obvious reasons.
To continue. This is why it is important for those in Christ who love the word to read and consider carefully and beyond the mere words on the page. Look deeper. There is a world of wisdom beyond what is written.
In the beginning was The Word and The Word was with God and The Word WAS God.

Hebrews 11 is a natural link to fully inform the wisdom found in Hebrews 10.
"He takes away the first
and
establishes the second

Hebrews 10:1-10
Hebrews 10:1. The ceremonial law given by Moses is a figure or picture of the good things to come in Christ. These ‘good things’ are pardon, peace, rest, fellowship, preservation, and eternal life. The tabernacle, the priesthood, and the law were not given to put away sin, but only to serve as a blueprint of the real tabernacle and sacrifice, which is Christ (Colossians 2:16-17; Hebrews 8:4-5).
Hebrews 10:2. If any or all of these sacrifices could put away sin –
1. They would have ceased to be offered! If I bring an atonement and it puts away my sin, then I need not offer another (Hebrews 10:12-14).
2. The people who offered the sacrifice would be discharged from all sin and guilt and would feel no condemnation (Romans 8:1; Romans 5:1).
This is the reason we have such assurance and confidence in Christ (Romans 8:33-34). He has offered one sacrifice, and we feel totally confident that our sins are gone (Hebrews 10:17; Isaiah 53:4-6).
Hebrews 10:3. In these Old Testament sacrifices offered on a regular basis, a fresh remembrance of sin is brought forth; they are still there. The very sacrifices themselves reminded the people of their sins. The sacrifices must continue until the Messiah comes and puts an end to them and to sin by his sacrifice.
Hebrews 10:4. It is not possible for animal blood to take away sin.
1. Sin is a transgression of the moral law. These sacrifices belong to a ceremonial law. Christ was born under and obeyed the moral law (Galatians 4:4-5).
2. The blood is not the same blood. It is not from the same kind of person who sinned. But Christ was bone of our bone and flesh of our flesh (Hebrews 2:16-18).
3. Sin deals with the mind and conscience to which an animal cannot relate. Christ made his soul an offering for sin. He was a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief (Isaiah 53:10-11).
Hebrews 10:5-8 is a quotation from Psalms 40:6-8 in which David writes of Christ who was to come...... " https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/hms/hebrews-10.html


The reason it is said there remains no more sacrifice for sin if we are saved from sin and then continue to sin is a forewarning to what is today known as the "nominal (name only) christian". Those who think they can put on the title of christian and they're safe when they die. They're making what is known as Pascal's Wager. But they're not truly in Christ. They're just of a mind, mind being key there as mind of the world or , worldly mind, that just in case the truth of God in Christ is true and after life can either be eternity in paradise or eternity in the abyss, they're going to claim Christ as an insurance policy. But meanwhile they think having done that they can keep on as they were. Which is dead in their worldly mind, sins.
And those that do that , for them, when they've claimed the savior of the world that took the sins of the world for all time upon himself on the cross, there remains no sacrifice for their sins after they've abused the truth by claiming it in name only, just to remain damned in their sins. There's no other sacrifice that can wipe them clean when they've abused by lying they're in Christ, the one savior that would save them. They must be sincere of heart and come fully to The Truth. Because there is no other sacrifice for their sins. In other words, there is no other way to be redeemed. And faking it just doesn't make it true.

Those who are in Christ do not make a habit of living opposed to righteousness. When God remembers our sins never again once we're redeemed and are new creations united with him, we do not sin. Because that would simply be telling us if we're still sinners after being redeemed in Christ and all sins put under the sacrificial blood that spilled on the last sin altar, the cross, then we're not actually in Christ. In-reunited Christ-with the anointing of eternal security in our saving grace that arrived by God as his gift.
When we do stumble, we have an advocate for us in Heaven. Which is Christ. We're linked in the truth and are lead to all truth by that seal that abides within us. The Holy Spirit. God knows our heart. He knows and knew who were his before he created the world. He called us by name because he knew our name and those who are sincere of heart he knows do not willfully fall from righteousness. When we do make mistakes, stumble, God forgives because HE knows we are still human.

That is what Hebrews 10 and 11 are telling us. It is not that we can lose our salvation at any moment. Or that we have to keep working to please God to show him he was right in calling "me" "I' , the individual Christian into his grace. God knew us before the womb!
That's how he knew our name to call to the saving teaching of his son. Because his grace was meant to lead us to him. Thinking we can do something to make all that cancel is the ego of the fallen worldly mind that thinks, literally, it knows more in the flesh than God in the spirit.

That's just dumb. If we could damn ourselves after Jesus died to save us, Jesus would have been a weak vessel called to take the sins of the whole world for all time upon himself that one time he was sacrificed on the cross for the purpose of fulfilling the Father's new covenant with humanity. Sealing the promise His grace initiated.

But see, those who read the words on the page don't see the spiritual truth of that fact. In the beginning was The Word. Not, 'the words'.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
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#88
do you trust Him or not?

And their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.
Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.
(Hebrews 10:17-18)
p...,

That does not relate to the point. That relates to sins forgiven. For those forgiven sins...none is needed.
 

mcubed

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2013
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#89
I'm sure I sind in word thought or deed and did not ask for forgiveness at some point in the last 26+ years, 26+ days, heck, 26+ hours.... If you're honest you have too unless you do not understand sin.... falling short of PERFECTION, G-d, MAN, MESSIAH WITHOUT SIN!!!!!

Messiah can NEVER BE SACRIFICED AGAIN FOR MY SIN BECAUSE HE FULFILLED THE LAW HIS NEXT ACT IS HE IS COMING BACK!!!! SO WHAT HE DID WAS EATHER ENOUGH OR WORTHLESS!!!!!!

If you think the Blood is enough to get you saved but not keep you.... Get saven then die before you can sin.... Tell me how that works out because that is how "smart", powerful" you think G-d is!!!!
 

vic1980

Senior Member
Apr 25, 2013
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#90
2 Corinthians 7:9-10

9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

Shalom
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
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#91
I'm sure I sind in word thought or deed and did not ask for forgiveness at some point in the last 26+ years, 26+ days, heck, 26+ hours.... If you're honest you have too unless you do not understand sin.... falling short of PERFECTION, G-d, MAN, MESSIAH WITHOUT SIN!!!!!

Messiah can NEVER BE SACRIFICED AGAIN FOR MY SIN BECAUSE HE FULFILLED THE LAW HIS NEXT ACT IS HE IS COMING BACK!!!! SO WHAT HE DID WAS EATHER ENOUGH OR WORTHLESS!!!!!!

If you think the Blood is enough to get you saved but not keep you.... Get saven then die before you can sin.... Tell me how that works out because that is how "smart", powerful" you think G-d is!!!!
m....,

Mountain out of a mole hill;...remain righteous.

Very simple.
 
May 20, 2018
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#92
p...,

No game playing with G-d's word;
It means what it says. G-d will withdraw forgiveness if you do not routinely/daily ask for forgiveness.
It seems you are trying to .....spin it to say......withdrawal of forgiveness for past sins already forgiven. Not scriptural.


With as much humility I can humanly muster, I must say that choosing any kind of time frame to a circumstance that carries eternal affects, directly relating to an eternal God kinda sounds on the verge of religious rituals stemming from a type of legalism.
For those in Christ, their sins were forgiven before the creation of the world. It is solely and wholly God who justifies.
If we place our salvation in a practice and "work" of ourselves, then it is fallible. God does not do fallible with his will.
God's plan of redemption was complete before the human race began.
The book of Life was complete and sealed just the same. I do not believe there will be any additional names written in the book of Life, nor do I believe there will be any erase marks.
We possess the Holy Spirit of truth and Holiness. To me, the Holy Spirit seems to be the "zealous worker" of the Trinity. As soon as God began to speak things into existence the Holy Spirit was anxiously waiting to sustain the righteous will and work of the Father.
We do not obtain day by day grace through ANY act of our own. It is the Will of God that we possess the Holy Spirit. We are made Holy through the spirit. Everything we were going to need to fulfill the redemtive will of God has been graciously supplied. Period.
The God I worship is the sustainer and substance of all that exists, both seen and unseen.
If there was one molecule in existence that was not entirely and directly under the control of God, then it is possible for the entire creation to become fallible and completely chaotic.
If you have the Holy Spirit within you, relax, drop the burden of legalistic practices, and know the truth, and the truth shall set you free. That truth is the fact that Jesus covered you in every angle as pertaining to eternal life. Actually he continually prays to the father for you to. Gotchya covered
Now if that isn't GREAT NEWS, I don't know what is?
Only when one lies fallen in the dust in complete humility can they see clearly that the fallen state of mankind everywhere is not primarily in need of an example, but a savior.

m....,

Mountain out of a mole hill;...remain righteous.

Very simple.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
1,675
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#93
.........For those in Christ, their sins were forgiven before the creation of the world. It is solely and wholly God who justifies.

Not per scripture.

God's plan of redemption was complete before the human race began.

Interesting thought...but, show scripture.


The book of Life was complete and sealed just the same. I do not believe there will be any additional names written in the book of Life, nor do I believe there will be any erase marks.

Not scriptural.....then why is there a.... "Lamb's Book of Life" ?


That truth is the fact that Jesus covered you in every angle as pertaining to eternal life. Actually he continually prays to the father for you to.

Since you acknowledge this....which is correct...why the above? Also, He is our intercessor when we sin. Appraising G-D that we have ask for forgiveness thru prayer of our occasional sin. Thereby maintaining clean robes.
....
5....,

When we are born our name goes into the Book of Life. When we become of age of accountability, we sin and do not initially repent of our sins...our name comes out of the Book of Life. If and when we repent before we die our name goes into the Lamb's Book of Life. We must be in one of the two books for eternal salvation.
 
May 20, 2018
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#94
5....,

When we are born our name goes into the Book of Life. When we become of age of accountability, we sin and do not initially repent of our sins...our name comes out of the Book of Life. If and when we repent before we die our name goes into the Lamb's Book of Life. We must be in one of the two books for eternal salvation.

When God speaks of something he wishes to be, it is done in eternity, for as it is said it is done. There are no restrictions or relevance whatsoever to a time frame in eternity.
I have never heard of two books divinely written with names. I have heard of one. I know the one is sealed until an appointed time, but in eternity it is already accomplished as it was spoken.
Everyone from Adam to the very last redeemed soul on earth is what we would call pre ordained because we only know time and it's attributes, was chosen for redemption, but in unwavering power of the righteous will of God, it has already been done. I hope I'm making sense?
God's love and grace is not conditional, and is not prone to be thwarted by imperfect, sinful, finite dirt vessels full of sortcomings and character defects.
God created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them and rested when it was fulfilled
All of God's will and work throughout eternity has already been accomplished. The souls chosen for eternal life by Christ, to us, was completed a long long time ago.
When Christ said"it is finished" he was not speaking of God's redemptive plan of salvation, for he had yet to be raised in glory and given authority over all things. He was speaking of the work he was willed to do..
Look at Judas Iscarot. He was the vessel surely to be damned to fulfill the father's righteous will. Even Christ said"it would have been better for him not to have been born".
So, I'm sticking to the truth, and concerning the righteous will of God as far as who it is in complete control of the gift and grace of salvation. And that was signed and sealed in it's appointed slot in eternity.
We do not chime in to help keep God's will up to a working standard so that we have yet to earn and complete it as the future for us unfolds from finite to infinite.
If I were to think my eternal life of bliss or damnation were left in my hands, I would at some point remove my spiritual eyes of understanding, and praise of the righteous will of God, and look to my own self righteousness to obtain, and that is contrary to sound doctrine.
I adamantly believe the gospel is a finished work, and not meant to be a medium for the promotion of legalism through misconception of the truth in which many error.
The list for the heavenly party has been completed. That list is irrevocable, just, and unchangable. There is nothing you are required to fulfill for salvation that has not already been graciously given and accomplished in unfathomable amounts of divine love and grace. Let's not turn that eternal love and grace into menial tasks of labor that are burdensome when compared with the truth and it's redemptive power.
God does not say"this is my plan and how you need you need to do it" Not my God. My god says "This is my will, and this is how you will witness it coming to pass."
The Bible says that God is love. What that conveys to me is that love is not mere attribute of God, but the core essence of his entity in which all that proceeds from him is from.
Let's embrace most powerful entity in existence, and let the unconditional and righteous truth it weilds take hold and produce genuine and pure righteous fruit and
Works for the glory of the only one fit to deserve it, the father of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ.
May your eyes and ears be opened to the truth throughout the word of God, and comprehend the manifold wisdom in god, and come to know the love of Christ that surpassed all knowledge.
The truth in the doctrine that is the cornerstone of biblical conception and growth, and is the edification of true saving faith is of extreme importance, and is the grandfather to all other accomplishments while we count down our appointment time on this fallen planet.
God bless and keep your heart from fear and worry.
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
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#95
....I have never heard of two books divinely written with names. I have heard of one. I know the one is sealed until an appointed time, but in eternity it is already accomplished as it was spoken.

Suggest you study and search The Bible and assemble the facts. If you have a challenge let me know and I will help.


God's love and grace is not conditional, and is not prone to be thwarted by imperfect, sinful, finite dirt vessels full of sortcomings and character defects.

Best you validate that thinking...G-d requires certain things of us for His granting us eternal salvation. Search and make sure you understand hem. If not let me know.

The souls chosen for eternal life by Christ, to us, was completed a long long time ago.

Not scriptural.

God does not say"this is my plan and how you need you need to do it" Not my God. My god says "This is my will, and this is how you will witness it coming to pass."

Wrong interpretation and application.

If you think the Blood is enough to get you saved but not keep you.... Get saven then die before you can sin.... Tell me how that works out because that is how "smart", powerful" you think G-d is!!!!
Simple........maintain righteous living as required by G-d's word ..............as a standard.

I urge further studies of scriptures.
 
May 20, 2018
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#96
Simple........maintain righteous living as required by G-d's word ..............as a standard.

I urge further studies of scriptures.
We are made righteous to God through the atoning sacrificial death of Christ. We sustain that redemption and justified by the Spirit of God given to us. Our attempt to live a "righteous* life is equivalent to wanting to believe is good enough for saving faith. If you hsh, an Holy Spirit in you, you should come to understand the truth which is righteousness, and burn witht a loving desire to want to do the works of righteousness. It is when we obey God out of an inward delight that we please him.
It would seem to be harder to do when I have my salvation to maintain before I am able to freely love and produce fruits of righteousness fit to glorify God.
When it is necessary for me to focus on me to assure my salvation, i put a separation between God and myself. This will not produce the love, peace and righteousness promised by Christ.
Well, we will all interpret scripture in different ways, but the Spirit in me says that god has been gracious in love, and desires for you to do the same as a light that shines and Glorifies him. The spirit does not tell me that God explained to us the way to swim and not drown, and then throws us into the deep in hopes we are good enough to to stay afloat after confirming that which we should do.
You were/are unable to obtain eternal life by any means but the grace and will of God.
I fear you are zealous of good works, but, they wil not produce good fruit of righteousnesst, that claim your love and faith in God when it is a mandatory practice of personal maintenance.
That sounds like a very depressing and stressful belief system
Christ did not come set an example in high hopes we would listen and persevere lo obtain salvation. Christ came to fulfill the work of a perfect sacrifice to redeem once and forever the children of God.
Christ was foremost a perfect sacrifice before any of his teaching or xample should be considered. My God does not freely give glory to filthy souls then sit in heaven biting his nails over the filthy beings ability to maintain his righteousness..."Oh no...looks like Bobby failed in that stipulation today! I'm taking my gift back now"
If we need to maintain our Salvation through any action, work, or ritual then how DARE Christ claimed it was good news!
Bottom line, God can and did where we couldn't and would never be able
To.Do you not know iteis the goodnes of God that leads you to repentance. Not fear of losing your salvation.
I am not stating this in pride but to convey information pertinent to the"further study of scripture" I have tens of thousands of hour's of study driven by a burning desire not to error in the truth contained therein. I am solid by the confirmation of the Spirit which opened my eyes of understanding. God bless you.
 
May 20, 2018
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#97
Simple........maintain righteous living as required by G-d's word ..............as a standard.

I urge further studies of scriptures.

I was not quoting anything from the word of God. It was general knowledge hindered by a poor recollection of the exact wording flowing in my own laments terms, and what seems to be opinionated through general and casual explanation are what I believe the spirit has conveyed to me as truth. I do not have a Bible open in front of me, or an app I can quick search for exactness and flawless application. I'm just rambling from memory and am probably using some pretty sketchy examples. But hey, I'm here and want to try and glorify God.
There is one major influence in my life which influences a big part of the foundation and core of my doctrinal beliefs...and that would be a very, very big extension of, well, firstly, the hand of a God I despised that knocked me completely off my high horse of spiteful unbelief. And secondly the grace he continually and abundantly blesses me with.
It was in the end of October of 1999 when some God I could of cared less to want to believe in revealed himself through a spiritual awakening and a revelation that is the pinnacle of my salvation, and the best thing that will ever happen to me in this clay vessel.
In short (and please forgive me for diminishing the complete awesomeness of God for the sake of space here) I was imputed with the holy spirit, and did not know what happened at the time because I didn't care to seek knowledge on something I didn't even care enough to believe in. Everything I possess, the understanding, the desires, the love I'm still trying to comprehend the awesomeness of, my faith, zeal, desire, and need to diligently study, etc, etc.
Almost 20 years later, I am still beside myself at times wondering why all these wonderful things have been imputed upon me when I didn't desire or care enough to want to "partake". Over the last almost 20 years, my salvation was revealed, explained, and confirmed without shadow of turning. I say all this was imputed because I didn't ask for it, and didn't even understand some of the experiences in the beginning, but it is the best part of my life, and I am literally unable to resist any of it. Not only am I unable to resist any of it, but I clarify that though it was imputed, none of it whatsoever was imposed. It has come to my biggest desire...period.
Like I said before, I am still beside myself at times wondering in awe at the totality and manifestation of all I am able to comprehend. There is a power in me that finds complete harmonization with, and in the Word of God.
I did not have any idea I had received some divine and eternal Spirit that had been granted to me until a patient and an always "right on time " God instantaneously opened my eyes of understanding of the truth in his word. As I studied, the past events came alive with the words of truth as my salvation was explained and confirmed in me. It's not a convincing of the truth, it's a confirmation of the undeniable.
Here I am. Once a hater of the word of God, churches, and clergy (especially when approached personally with that damned Christ crap) Now, a completely zealous lover of the entire truth pertaining to anything remotely relevant to the trinity and it's blessed awesomeness.
What I have come to solid confirmation of is that (and though it is not truly humanly possible to do, I humble myself the best I can when I confess) I am chosen.
Let the glory of God reign everywhere throughout eternity. He is worthy of all glory and praise his creation is able to give, and then some.

Peace all,
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,978
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#98
5....,

When we are born our name goes into the Book of Life. When we become of age of accountability, we sin and do not initially repent of our sins...our name comes out of the Book of Life. If and when we repent before we die our name goes into the Lamb's Book of Life. We must be in one of the two books for eternal salvation.
Every time anyone stumbles God erases their name, and the writes it back every time anyone rises to their feet again, then erases it again the next hour, then writes it again...?

I also urge you to study the scriptures, and see if in them you might find a confidence and sure hope for which one may be eternally grateful :)
 

preston39

Senior Member
Dec 18, 2017
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#99
Every time anyone stumbles God erases their name, and the writes it back every time anyone rises to their feet again, then erases it again the next hour, then writes it again...?

I also urge you to study the scriptures, and see if in them you might find a confidence and sure hope for which one may be eternally grateful :)
p...,

You look at the negative side...I look at the positive aspect.

Satan is much, much stronger than we. As a result He can entrap us into a sin. Thank G-d who knows this and allows unlimited forgiveness of sin. The unlimited number illustrates that G-d knows we will need forgiveness repeatedly ......or else why would He make such provision available?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
36,978
13,223
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p...,

You look at the negative side...I look at the positive aspect.

Satan is much, much stronger than we. As a result He can entrap us into a sin. Thank G-d who knows this and allows unlimited forgiveness of sin. The unlimited number illustrates that G-d knows we will need forgiveness repeatedly ......or else why would He make such provision available?
What's positive about being forever in doubt and never having any security or confidence, freedom or assurance?

Is that salvation? Something that turns and wavers every second between damnation and pardon?

How is this different from rushing to the temple every day with another blood sacrifice that is never able to truly take away sin, or to make perfect, but only to temporally cover it with blood?

What's "redemption" mean?