The Modern Church/Seeker-Sensitive Movement

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G

God-Chaser

Guest
#1
What are your thoughts on the Modern Church/Seeker-Sensitive Movement? Is it natural progression from "old-school" ministry tactics, or is it a departure from Scripture? Do you believe we are the Church Jesus said He was coming back for in Ephesians 5:27, a Church "without spot or blemish"? Or are we more like the Apostate Church the Apostle Paul speaks of in II Timothy 4:3 with our Universalistic Message that says God accepts you no matter what? This post is not meant to demonize the Modern Church, I would just like your input on the matter.
 
U

Ugly

Guest
#2
Seeker sensitive mostly means watering down the gospel, avoiding the 'bad' things in the bible, making excuses for sin, and in some cases i've seen, inviting worldly things into the church, and making them part of the service.
Personally, i don't think it is the responsibility of the church (as in the building, pastor etc) to do all the work of witnessing. But rather the pastor should be teaching and training the congregation to go out and be witnesses and leading people to Christ. I believe church services should be about believers getting fed.
Then the church can take the fed, trained believers and set up ministry opportunities to minister. Food ministry, homeless ministry, volunteer at soup kitchens, etc..
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#4
Spirit-Led or Purpose-Driven? Part 6
Social Change and Communitarian Systems


by Berit Kjos

Today's Biblical illiteracy, which is well documented by George Barna, has left churches vulnerable to countless marketing ploys and psycho-social strategies that lure God's people away from His narrow ways. Cloaked in theological terms and Biblical promises, the new highways become all the more alluring.

Keep in mind, there is far more to the current paradigm shift than meets the eye. For example, behind Saddleback's mostly clean Christian image hides a plan for global transformation and social restructuring that is hard to imagine. The sophisticated church assessments and data technology that help Christians "discover their spiritual gifts" and prepare for ministry fit right into the communitarian visions of trained leaders and facilitators inside and outside the church.

The new "systems" view of the world focuses on a three-member partnership between the private (corporate) sector, the governmental sector and what's now called the third or "social sector" (which includes churches). Each would be made up of managed "systems" -- all interconnected through networks, standards and leadership training. The basic blueprint for these vast networks was prepared by Peter Drucker, the communitarian mastermind behind the "systems theory" of how to manage everything.

Drucker called Rick Warren 'the inventor of perpetual revival,'[44] and Saddleback Community Church is a starring example of the success of his pragmatic theories. The following links and quotes expose some of the connections and philosophies that drive the Church Growth Movement:

Social Change and Communitarian Systems. < click
 
G

God-Chaser

Guest
#5
Loving the feedback everyone is giving. Keep it coming!!
 
Feb 11, 2012
1,358
8
0
#6
What are your thoughts on the Modern Church/Seeker-Sensitive Movement? Is it natural progression from "old-school" ministry tactics, or is it a departure from Scripture? Do you believe we are the Church Jesus said He was coming back for in Ephesians 5:27, a Church "without spot or blemish"? Or are we more like the Apostate Church the Apostle Paul speaks of in II Timothy 4:3 with our Universalistic Message that says God accepts you no matter what? This post is not meant to demonize the Modern Church, I would just like your input on the matter.
Its vey important to understand what constitutes the true Church built by Jesus Christ, its long gone I am afraid!

The Church
Ekklēsia is the Greek word used in the New Testament over 116 times, translated in our English Bibles as ‘Church’. The word has NOTHING to do with stone buildings or sacred places of worship. It is a compound word meaning: ‘Ek’: Out from….’Ekklēsia’ the called out. Thus the ‘Called out’.

The Greek word most closely related to ‘Church’ is kuriakos, used in 1Cor11:20 & Rev1:10, translated: ‘the Lord’s’ as referring to the Lord’s Supper and the Lord’s Day. Meaning in the Greek: belonging to the Lord, related to the Lord. This word became associated with places of ‘Christian’ worship around 300AD under Roman Emperor Constantine. Up to that time the true followers of Jesus Christ were meeting in private homes, often in secret at night. WHY? Because in the Roman Empire there could be no private religion! It was against the law and considered conspiratorial to hold secret or private meetings in homes. This is why the Pagans often brought moral charges against the Christians accusing them of incest, cannibalism and unnatural practices.
(meetings in homes: Rom16:5, 1Cor16:19, Col4:15, Phil1:2, Acts2:46)

Christ Intended Church Matt16:13-19
When Jesus came into the region of Caesarea Philippi, He asked His disciples, saying, “Who do men say that I, the Son of Man, am?” So they said, “Some say John the Baptist, some Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?” Simon Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
Thus WHAT is the Church? Its Certainly NOT a building considered ‘Sacred’ where the Lord dwells. His Spirit does not reside in things made of stone and wood. When He told His Disciples that if ‘Anyone love Me, he will Keep My Word and My Father will love him and WE will come to him and make Our home with him’ Jn14:23, He was speaking of this ‘Ekklēsia’ of the ‘Called out ones’. These would be His assembly called out of Darkness and Bondage into Light and Freedom from sin! (Acts26:18) The Saints are NOT called to buildings set apart as sacred run by a religious establishment of clergy with some kind of special privileges to Lord over people.
WHO is Greatest in the Kingdom of our Lord?

And whoever desires to be first among you, let him be your servant. Matt20:27

But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. Matt23:11
Even the Ransom (redemption of Christ) is associated with this kind of Servitude:
just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.”Matt20:28
Jesus as the ‘ROCK’ 1Cor10:4 (Petra, up on which the Ekklēsia is to be Established) Served on the ‘Called out ones’ behalf in order to Redeem them from darkness to light from the power of Satan to God. That’s why His ‘Church’ is the ‘Chosen generation, the Royal priesthood, a holy nation of His own special people that may proclaim praises to Him who called them out of darkness into His marvelous Light!’ 1Pet2:9. The Ekklēsia is NOT the filthy ragged, desperately wicked, wretched, born depraved, chiefs of sinners sitting under the bondage of a religious system that rules over their minds and keeps them in ignorance. (under a millennial of bondage dating back to ancient Rome)
Peter’s (petros, small rock) confession stands as the testimony of the Ekklesia’s foundation on which the Saints are to build; 1Cor3:9-11 For we are God’s fellow workers; you are God’s field, you are God’s building. According to the grace of God which was given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid the foundation, and another builds on it. But let each one take heed how he builds on it. For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ! Understanding that it’s GOD who gives the increase, 1Cor3:7. This is why His Saints stand out as ‘Special People’ (unique 1Pet2:9) His Bride who has made themselves ready for His coming, Rev19:7, going forth into all the earth to proclaim the riches of His Glory, (Eph1:18, 3:16, Rom9:23) endued with the Power from on High! Acts1:8. Professing Christians in the Church System do not have a clue what it means to be among the ‘called out’ ones. They have yet to answer the call to ‘Come Out from among them and be separate’ 2Cor6:16-18. Separate from what, They ask, we are the Church!

The Satanic distortion of ‘Church’ began in forth Century Rome under Emperor Constantine who granted religious tolerance in the land that brought an end to the bitter persecutions against Christians. This eventually led to the uniting of church and state, bringing the ‘Christians’ into the great cathedrals of Rome. (considered sacred by the pagans) From that time forward an ‘Official’ religious system existed under the guise of Christianity blending together the idols, pagan beliefs and rituals of Roman culture and remains so to this day. To the officials of Rome you were either a ‘Catholic Christian’ or a ‘heretic’….branded foolish madmen, who should suffer chastisement and divine condemnation.

Essentially this turned the tables against the real Saints of God labeling them dangerous dissenters and who would not bow to the authority of Rome. The Ecclesiastical System had full authority to persecute and legally murder their religious opponents who opposed them. Sparing you the long and bloody history of religious tyranny that brought us the horror of Crusades, Inquisitions, torture and massive persecutions throughout history to present day, suffice to say the ‘CHURCH’ as we know it in our current society has NOTHING to do with CHRIST! Certainly much of the bitter persecution has ceased in our ‘relativity’ free country and we are currently permitted to practice the religion of our choice, it doesn’t negate the FACT that the existing Religious Establishment of professing Christianity in the free world is still Pagan based to its core.

The ‘Churches’ as they exist in our towns, villages and cities, in which so-called Christians claim to worship the One True God are simply an off-shoot of what happened in ancient Rome when the Pure Doctrine of Jesus Christ was nullified by the teachings of men. This is why the ‘Church’ has absolutely no similarity to the ‘Ekklēsia’ of the Bible and also has no desire whatsoever to resemble it. They have their SYSTEM in place that serves the purpose of gathering humanity under a unified pattern of religion where anything goes and people can choose the ‘form’ that suits them best.

The establishment can still maintain a fabricated authority over attendees insisting they must submit to church leadership and remain in fellowship lest they abandon the faith. This enforces the fantasy in the minds of church goers that those who flee the System are angry runagates and devils better off gone rather than stirring up trouble in their midst. In olden times the ‘Church’ exercised domination over the people by the pretense of piety, the place of worship (they controlled) was consecrated of the Lord and dare not be blasphemed or defied. They may not be hunting down dissidents or burning anyone at the stake in our time, but TRY going among them to challenge their false doctrines and expose the sin! You will find out very quickly that non-compliance will NOT be tolerated.

A denominational church will use its entire governing body to see that you’re silenced and cast out of doors if necessary. More independent organizations will muster the governing board against you and see that you’re brought to shame in the eyes of the people. How different is that from excommunication or being branded a heretic by the religious establishment? The illegitimate ‘Church’ System STILL holds great sway over the gullible (professed) Christian public who fear being numbered among the rebellious. God’s greatest Prophets (including John the Baptist) always stood aloof of the religious system and were greatly out-numbered by the dominant forces. Elijah had to stand alone against 450 false prophets of Baal who had already gone out and slain hundreds of the Lord’s faithful. (1Kings19:12-21)

It’s really no surprise that those of us who Preach the Lord’s true Doctrine cannot buy or sell inside the religious system. (Rev13:17) The use of these words; ‘Buy & Sell’ in Revelation 13 are metaphorical. To Buy means the ability to Participate in a market place….To Sell translates as ability to Barter in a place. Are God’s true Messengers of Repentance and Faith Proven by deeds permitted to ‘Participate’ in the designated places of worship? Can they ‘Barter’ (the act or practice of carrying on a trade) among the ‘church’ people? BY NO MEANS…..because they have NOT taken on the Mark (which is the lust of the eye, flesh & pride of life!) but have CAST it away in the Crucifixion of the passions and desires of the flesh. (Rom6:4-6,Gal5:24)

That’s what has separated the ‘Ekklesia’ from the church since the beginning. When Saul (later Paul) made havoc of the church entering into every house dragging off men and women committing them to prison (Acts8:3) Obviously he was finding this ‘Ekklesia’ in the houses. He did not have to seek them out in the local synagogues or other official places of worship approved by the religious system. And the SAME holds true today….you will NOT find the ‘Called out ones’ partaking at the table of demons in a place of idolatry. (1Cor10:21, 2Cor6:14-16)

We see this in Christ rolling back the vale of eternity in Matt7:21-23, when He pronounces those awful words to the people who thought they were serving Him in a false System, “I Never Knew you, Depart from Me you workers of iniquity’! They participated in the rituals and traditions of the ‘church’, but never came out of their sins.
If we look back over the centuries of religious bondage since the days of ancient Rome, we find a ruling elite arrogantly reigning over the mind’s of men by the use of superstition and the fear of a vengeful God. In darker times the mere suggestion that you were involved in anything the church deemed blasphemy it meant banishment from common society. (and often times death by horrible means) The average people could not simply ignore the ecclesiastical influence of the establishment because they had power to brandish the full power of the State against anyone who opposed them. So unless you were willing to contest a standing army that thoroughly enjoyed bloody slaughter, you kowtowed to the System in spite of your convictions.
Of course things have changed somewhat since the advent of Liberty in the world, but billions still live under authoritarian style leadership. The major difference today is that the ‘Christian’ Church is no longer a threat to the darkened authorities. Therefore if it, as an organization, is willing to exist within the parameters of state control it can enjoy full acceptance. (even in places like China) However private gatherings or (in house) churches are still considered a danger by most regimes because they operate apart from the supervision of prying eyes. This includes America, where many of the brain dead mind controlled, still believe their leaders respect the Bill of Rights. The general public, among who most professing Christians reside are already good minions of the State and subordinate to some form of authorized religious authority. The religious systems of history have provided man with a sanctuary for his ‘sickness’ of mind called the ‘church’. They have gone to extreme lengths to preserve this safe harbor for carnality, including the use of torture, coercion and deceptions.
Even when the vast monopoly of the Catholic System was challenged during what historians call the Reformation, the duplicity continued. When the Bible was finally authorized to be translated into English by King James VI in 1604, the ‘esteemed’ translators were instructed to rigorously maintain the Episcopal structure of the Church of England and its belief in an ‘ordained’ clergy. So the Word ‘Ekklesia’ in the Greek text was ordered to be translated ‘Church’! (as it also appeared in the Geneva Bible the Anglo-Catholic Bishop’s Bible) Thus it has been to this day. The ‘Church’ is still considered a sacred gathering place for ‘Christians’ and the clergy keeps the people in a state of ignorance and bliss. However GOD did not intend that His Ekklesia become an institutionalized religion.
We have already established that the ‘Church’ as it exists in America today is NOT the ‘Called out’ ones of Christ. Further evidence of this is seen in their eagerness to obey the rules of State and operate within the constraints of a charitable origination. Since the founding of America the ‘Churches’ have been exempt (for the most part) from paying any taxes. (except on payroll earnings stating in the late 1930’s) However as the Gospel became more and more secular in nature the government recognized it’s opportunity to weasel into ‘religious’ affairs by ‘granting’ them a special status under law to maintain their exemption. However nothing comes from government without strings attached and the American Church System was a prime candidate to ‘sign on’ to something they ‘thought’ was to their advantage. And in a bizarre sort of way the 501 (c) 3 charitable corporate tax exempt statuses (introduced in 1954) corresponds seamlessly into their counterfeit gospel message that follows the Great Harlot of Babylon.
This type of tax exemption turns the churches into ‘corporations’, that must follow the guidelines (as any government granted corporation) stipulated in the agreement. Which means that in order to maintain a tax exempt status the Churches (and any charitable organization) must forego certain activities which are specifically: engaging in political lobbying or campaigning. That means the Pastors or other church leadership cannot endorse a candidate for political office or participate in any political debate that may influence the outcome of an election or the passing of legislation. Essentially this hamstrings the ‘Churches’ ability to act as any kind of a moral compass in society at large.
So there you have it! Your precious constitution brought to naught. Congress making no law respecting the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…. Has virtually no further significance in the land of the free. Not only have the Churches voluntarily repudiated the Gospel of Christ they have enthusiastically gone in league with the devil! They are a sort of ‘Judas’ goat, selling out for their thirty pieces of silver. They ride the Scarlet Beast of Rev17:3-6, adorn with all the trimmings of ancient Babylon.
As throughout their long and sorted history as a religious hierarchy they have always been FULLY aware of the control they have put forth over men AND used it to their complete advantage. With the 501 they can further demonize the runagates that refuse to comply and wrap themselves in the flag as loyal patriots thereby garnering an even greater creditability to the unsuspecting masses who equate God and Country to the Bible. Is it of any wonder why Solomon said that there is nothing new under the sun? This same type of Mind control has been going on from the very dawn of creation. Man is a creature easily duped (or shall I say Doped) by the Luciferian agenda of instant gratification and the promise of supremacy. Thus you have the SAME establishment today as those who crucified Christ. Controlled in Mind and Heart by Satan himself!
Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive; For the hearts of this people have grown dull .Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them. Matt13:14-15
The Ekklēsia can never be connected with a System, by definition they are the ‘called out’ ones, Separate from the lust of the flesh, eyes and pride of life; all the trapping of the world the establishment churches find irresistible. They are His Sheep who hear His Voice and Obey, sojourns in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom they SHINE as Lights in a world of Darkness, Holding fast the Word of Life! Phil2:15-16
The religious systems of history have provided man with a sanctuary for his ‘sickness’ of mind called the ‘church’. They have gone to extreme lengths to preserve this safe harbor for carnality, including the use of torture, coercion and deceptions. Even when the vast monopoly of the Catholic System was challenged during what historians call the Reformation, the duplicity continued. When the Bible was finally authorized to be translated into English by King James VI in 1604, the ‘esteemed’ translators were instructed to rigorously maintain the Episcopal structure of the Church of England and its belief in an ‘ordained’ clergy. So the Word ‘Ekklēsia’ in the Greek text was ordered to be translated ‘Church’! (as it also appeared in the Geneva Bible the Anglo-Catholic Bishop’s Bible)
Thus it has been to this day. The ‘Church’ is still considered a sacred gathering place for ‘Christians’ and the clergy keeps the people in a state of ignorance and bliss. However GOD did not intend that His Ekklēsia to become an institutionalized religion.
www.standingthegap.org
 
G

God-Chaser

Guest
#7
You guys are awesome!! I'm still waiting for someone to come on and contend for the Modern Church/Seeker-Sensitive Movement... Is there no one to defend the other side of the argument? Anyone at all??
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
0
#8
Spirit-Led or Purpose-Driven? Part 6
Social Change and Communitarian Systems


by Berit Kjos

Today's Biblical illiteracy, which is well documented by George Barna, has left churches vulnerable to countless marketing ploys and psycho-social strategies that lure God's people away from His narrow ways. Cloaked in theological terms and Biblical promises, the new highways become all the more alluring.

Keep in mind, there is far more to the current paradigm shift than meets the eye. For example, behind Saddleback's mostly clean Christian image hides a plan for global transformation and social restructuring that is hard to imagine. The sophisticated church assessments and data technology that help Christians "discover their spiritual gifts" and prepare for ministry fit right into the communitarian visions of trained leaders and facilitators inside and outside the church.

The new "systems" view of the world focuses on a three-member partnership between the private (corporate) sector, the governmental sector and what's now called the third or "social sector" (which includes churches). Each would be made up of managed "systems" -- all interconnected through networks, standards and leadership training. The basic blueprint for these vast networks was prepared by Peter Drucker, the communitarian mastermind behind the "systems theory" of how to manage everything.

Drucker called Rick Warren 'the inventor of perpetual revival,'[44] and Saddleback Community Church is a starring example of the success of his pragmatic theories. The following links and quotes expose some of the connections and philosophies that drive the Church Growth Movement:

Social Change and Communitarian Systems. < click
My question to Berit Kjos...

From: Scott [mailto:XXXXXX]
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 9:48 AM
To: XXXX@crossroad.to
Subject: Salvation Question

Hello there,

I was hoping you would be able to answer a question that I have.


Is there any sin or sins that must be stopped before God will grant forgiveness?

For example, if someone is addicted to pornography or was even a child molester, do those sins have to actually stop before forgiveness is granted?


Thank you for your time.

Scott
The answer...

Dear Scott,
We can't stop sinning by our own strength. Only by His Spirit and guidance can we truly overcome the sin nature in each of us. Here are some of His wonderful promises from the Bible:
"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:8-9

"Search me, O God, and know my heart;
Try me, and know my thoughts;
And see if there is any wicked way in me,
And lead me in the way everlasting
." Psalm 139:23-24


"And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors." (From the Lord's prayer) Matthew 6:11

“For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Matthew 6:14-15

...all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness...."Romans 3:21-26
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Repentant Sinners welcomed by Jesus
"He turned to the woman and said to Simon, 'Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has washed My feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head. You gave Me no kiss, but this woman has not ceased to kiss My feet since the time I came in. You did not anoint My head with oil, but this woman has anointed My feet with fragrant oil. Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.'
Then He said to her, 'Your sins are forgiven.'
And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, 'Who is this who even forgives sins?'
Then He said to the woman, 'Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.'"
Luke 7:44-50
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You may find this list of Bible topics useful: Topical Index of Scriptures

The above Scriptures (in red) are on the page titled "forgiveness." But please read the pages on salvation, His love, redemption and any other God leads you to.

I am so encouraged by the fact that you ask these questions! :) I believe He is working in your heart and will bring you the peace and assurance that you seek.

Some of God's most wonderful servants in the past came to Him after seeking His forgiveness after leading sinful lives. Here is one example: In joy or pain, our course is onward still (Here is the link, in case this one doesn't work. It's on our devotional website) "In joy or pain, our course is onward still"

Another Scripture you can pray to Him:
"Search me, O God, and know my heart;
Try me, and know my thoughts;
And see if there is any wicked way in me,
And lead me in the way everlasting."
Psalm 139:23-24

I will pray for you, Scott.

With His love,

Berit

Like many responses to my question, Berit completely avoided the question.

She then uses 1Jn 1:8-9 as a proof text of the "sin nature" which she alluded to in her opening sentence. Nevermind that 1Jn 1:7 specifically states that being cleansed of all sin is conditional on walking in the light thus 1Jn 1:8-10 are in the context of approaching God in repentance AND NOT of an ongoing state of sinfulness.

She then talks about how God is willing to forgive sinners. I was not asking whether God was willing to forgive sinners, I was specifically asking if "any sin or sins have to stop" and I even gave the clear example of "pornography viewing" and "child molestation" to make it very clear what I was asking.

Yet as I mentioned above, it is very typical to dance around the question. The reason she dances around the question is due to this belief in an "inborn sin nature" whereby the issue of sin is not related to "choice" but is rather more akin to a "disease." Thus in her mind a sinner does not come to Christ in repentance "forsaking their rebellion," rather they come to Christ in repentance "confessing their state of sinfulness." Then AFTER being saved the rebellion to God can gradually cease because God "offsets the inability" to "cease from sin."

I reiterate that the problem with the theology of Berit Kjos is that she believes that we are all "born sinners" and thus "actual sin" is a "symptom" of the birth nature, not of choice. Thus when coming to Christ one cannot forsake a "birth nature" but has to "cry out to God to change it." This is why she simply cannot answer my question in a straightforward way and state "yes a child molester has to forsake molesting children BEFORE God will forgive them," which is the obvious correct answer (Isa 55:7, Pro 28:13).

The fallacy of the statement "we can't stop sinning by our own strength" is in that it denies that "sin is a choice." Jesus is the light that lights everyone that comes into the world (Joh 1:9) and the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men teaching us to deny ungodliness and worldy lusts (Tit 2:11-12) wherefore an individual can "lay aside all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness and receive with meekness the implanted word which can save the soul" (Jam 1:21) and thus be a doer of the word (Jam 1:22).

The Prodigal Son ceased from his rebellion to the father and forsook the pig pen before he was restored to favour (Luke 15:20-21) and Nineveh forsook their wickedness before God granted them mercy (Jon 3:10). Therefore we CAN forsake rebellion by our own strength because God has given us the ability to do so. Under the New Covenant the method to do this is via the cross when we DIE WITH CHRIST whereby we are buried with Him in the baptism of His death where our old man is crucified in order that the body of sin be destroyed, in order that we no longer serve sin.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.


The above is simply Paul illustrating the process of repentance via the cross.

What is true though is that we cannot produce the fruit of righteousness apart from God. In order to bear fruit we have to abide in Christ whereby it is He who lives in us. Thus the power and righteousness of God is manifest through us for we are mere vessels. It is through a genuine repentance and conversion (the forsaking of rebellion) by which we can enter into an abiding relationship with Christ. It is not possible to enter into it in one's rebellion. Hence...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.




Here is how Berit preaches salvation...

How you, too, may receive His gift of abundant life:
Jesus said, "...he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24
"I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." John 14:6
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him...." John 6:44
The phrase "believes in Him" implies a Spirit-given -

  • understanding and response to the Gospel (as presented in His Word whether preached, taught or read).
  • conviction of sin and a recognition of our own depravity (as seen in the light of God's Holiness).
  • willingness to come to Him and surrender your life into the hands of our sovereign Lord.
In other words, believing the gospel is not simply a human or moral decision. It's not enough to believe that God exists; for, as James (2:19) points out, "Even the demons believe—and tremble!" Saving faith is given to us by God's grace; it is His undeserved gift to sinners. Only through the power of His Word and Spirit can we understand our own need and trust the wonderful truth about God and His death on our behalf.
If God is drawing you to Himself and you long to receive the cleansing, forgiveness and eternal life that He makes available to us through the Cross, trust Him to show you the way. Your prayer might include the following:
Acknowledge the Bible uses the word "confess" who Christ is:

"If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." Romans 10:9
Confess your sins: Admit in prayer that you have sinned against Him. The words King David prayed may help you:

"Search me, O God, and know my heart... and see if there is any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting." Psalm 139:23-24
Repent (based on genuine Spirit-given conviction of sin -- not simply your human choice): Express your willingness and desire to turn from all wrong ways and follow Jesus, then trust Him -- now and each coming day -- to accomplish it by His Spirit in you.


“He said to me, 'My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness.' Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me." 2 Corinthians 12:9-10
"I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance." Luke 15:7
Thank Him:Thank Him for the "exchanged life" He offers us. If He indeed is drawing your to Himself and doing a a supernatural work in your heart, He can take your weak and sinful life and, in turn, fill you with His good and perfect life. Then He will enable you to know His will, persevere through life's struggles, and share His triumph -- now and forever.


"Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." 2 Corinthians 5:20-21
What it means to be a Christian
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
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#9
There is not a single allusion to this...

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that
our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7
For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Or this...

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's
have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Or this...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but
ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

To Berit repentance is this...

Express your willingness and desire to turn from all wrong ways and follow Jesus, then trust Him -- now and each coming day -- to accomplish it by His Spirit in you.
Thus you don't have to actually forsake any sin, you just have to "want to" and "trust." Which is why Berit answered my question in the way she did.

So instead of reckoning ourselves dead to sin (Rom 6:11) and not letting it reign in our mortal body (Rom 6:12) because whom we obey reveals who we serve (Rom 6:16) Berit speaks of the magic transfer...
Thank Him: Thank Him for the "exchanged life" He offers us. If He indeed is drawing your to Himself and doing a a supernatural work in your heart, He can take your weak and sinful life and, in turn, fill you with His good and perfect life.
So someone who is "saved" under her theology is still "weak and sinful" being drawn into and filled with "His good and perfect life." Hence a "sinning less and less" or "rebelling less and less" sanctification teaching.

It is a subtle deception but a deception nonetheless.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#10
There is not a single allusion to this...


perhaps you should read again....

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that
our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7
For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Or this...

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's
have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Or this...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but
ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18
Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

To Berit repentance is this...
"Repent (based on genuine Spirit-given conviction of sin -- not simply your human choice)"

You mean to say that SPIRIT-given conviction of sins does not only allude but accomplishes the freedom from bondage to sin?

You mean that you don't understand the difference between "simple human choice" to forsake sin versus "Spirit given conviction of sin"?

The difference between godly sorrow and worldly sorrow?

surely you jest?
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#11
do you disagree with her statement?

"We can't stop sinning by our own strength. Only by His Spirit and guidance can we truly overcome the sin nature in each of us."

Do you belive you can stop sinning by your own strength without the Holy Spirit and His guidance?

Or do you need help understanding these scriptures?

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:8-9
for us to confess our sins we must first acknowledge that we have sinned and have humble and contrite hearts and want God to cleanse us. otherwise its no true confession, just false justification of actions that go contray to God's word and will.

you can't say "Sorry God for ______(fill in your pet sin)_____ but if you had given me the strength (or if that woman that you gave hadn't tempted me) I wouldn't have done it."

that's not confessing your sins, that is shifting blame.

Confessing is taking responsibility for your past actions and asking God for forgiveness.

Knowing that you don't deserve it but having faith that God loves you enough to cleanse you and teach you His ways.

sorry OP for going off topic....
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#12
What are your thoughts on the Modern Church/Seeker-Sensitive Movement?
I guess it depends on how you define it. I don't believe all modern churchers are seeker sensitive. However, I do see the problem with some who claim that title, but I believe the open hearts and open doors policy is one that the early church had.

Is it natural progression from "old-school" ministry tactics, or is it a departure from Scripture?
what tactics are you referring to?

Do you believe we are the Church Jesus said He was coming back for in Ephesians 5:27, a Church "without spot or blemish"?
who is "we"? Do I believe a church exist that is without spot or blemish? yes. are they all in one building made by man? no

Or are we more like the Apostate Church the Apostle Paul speaks of in II Timothy 4:3 with our Universalistic Message that says God accepts you no matter what?
again who is "we"? there are some churches who teach a universalistic message that is like the apostate church, but I woud not classify all churches in that group. there are also many cults and legalistic/pharisical churches who claim to be Christian, but that is another topic really.

This post is not meant to demonize the Modern Church, I would just like your input on the matter.
so what are these "old school ministry tactics" you allude to?

I agree with Ugly, that the pastor is meant to teach and train the congregation by teaching God's wisdom from the Bible and that members are to take on the task of witnessing and ministrying to the larger community through food banks, homeless ministries, etc.

Did Jesus call out every person's individual sins in front of the crowd or did He speak privately with them?

God sent us the Holy Spirit to convict His children and chasten them of their sins.

I believe you have to have a lot of faith to speak and try and turn another from their sins.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
#13
Im all for the couches. latte stands and free lunch.
cant wait till they pay my mortgage.:p
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#14
RE: My obssessions which come up over and over regardless whom to i talk to
From: Scott [mailto:XXXXXX]
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 9:48 AM
To: EVERY PERSON IN THE WORLD
Subject: SEX AND PERVERSION


pornography
child molester


That's really all i ever want to talk about.
Thank you for your time.

Scott
suggested addendum to future stalker posing as penitent sinner poison letter campaigning:



Thank you for your personal counsel to someone you thought may be a penitent sinner.
It will help me in my demonically energized attack against you, the church, and against the Lord's shepherds.
I do these things because I feel superior, and righteous and pure.
Even though I have the courage to post your email,
I do not have to courage to reveal my own.

I do this evil work, never once considering Judgment Day, because....




"I make the distinction between willful sin (disobedience) and non-presumptuous sin and you do not."

you appear to believe Jesus Christ forgives ALL sin.
I won't stand for such an idea.

Insincerely,
Scott XXX
aka Skinski7
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
#15
suggested addendum to future stalker posing as penitent sinner poison letter campaigning:



Thank you for your personal counsel to someone you thought may be a penitent sinner.
It will help me in my demonically energized attack against you, the church, and against the Lord's shepherds.
I do these things because I feel superior, and righteous and pure.
Even though I have the courage to post your email,
I do not have to courage to reveal my own.

I do this evil work, never once considering Judgment Day, because....




"I make the distinction between willful sin (disobedience) and non-presumptuous sin and you do not."

you appear to believe Jesus Christ forgives ALL sin.
I won't stand for such an idea.

Insincerely,
Scott XXX
aka Skinski7
You know what, Zone? You are very sad.
 
D

dashadow

Guest
#16
I suppose it's a good idea to consider the merits of any given movement, so I can see the benefit of this discussion. But because there are always movements popping up, I think it would be even wiser to focus on what the Church should really be like. And a couple of responders have made some great points in that regard.

Each of us will form our own opinions based upon what we've been exposed to, how we think and how the Spirit has guided us. Certain people try to force their beliefs on others, which I consider to be an obvious indication of their insecurity. In my opinion, if one is secure in his or her beliefs, he or she will allow the truth to speak for itself. I'm not saying vigorously sharing one's faith is the same as forcing one's beliefs on others, just to be clear.

Anyway, don't hesitate to question that which is suspect, but more importantly, seek the truth to establish a sound foundation of Faith. I think a nice place to find some answers is by reading "Unchurch" by kenisyes. Just check out his profile to visit his web site.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
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#18
suggested addendum to future stalker posing as penitent sinner poison letter campaigning:



Thank you for your personal counsel to someone you thought may be a penitent sinner.
It will help me in my demonically energized attack against you, the church, and against the Lord's shepherds.
I do these things because I feel superior, and righteous and pure.
Even though I have the courage to post your email,
I do not have to courage to reveal my own.

I do this evil work, never once considering Judgment Day, because....




"I make the distinction between willful sin (disobedience) and non-presumptuous sin and you do not."

you appear to believe Jesus Christ forgives ALL sin.
I won't stand for such an idea.

Insincerely,
Scott XXX
aka Skinski7

You continue to ignore the meat of what I am saying and simply continue to blow over it with strawman rhetoric.

There is nothing insincere about my question, I want to understand what the people I write to believe. So I ask them questions.

How they answer the question reveals a lot. How you mock me reveals a lot about you too Zone.



Why is it that these teachers cannot plainly state that any sin has to stop prior to forgiveness? They cannot say it because of their theology.

The theology teaches that the sin does not have to stop. They believe that a sinner is saved whilst in the pig pen.

Thus an individual addicted to pornography comes to Christ still viewing porn. They "confess their sinfulness" and "express a desire to change" and then they "trust in the provision made on the cross." They are then assured they are saved and through the work of the Holy Spirit God will help them overcome their addiction.

What is the problem with that? Well you have a person supposedly "saved" yet still engaging in known wicked behaviour. They are double-minded and serving two masters. You cannot deny that. It is plainly self evident. This message leaves converts in a double-minded state before God waiting on God to clean them up.

Thus all the scriptures which teach "depart from iniquity," "cease from sin," "the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom," "if you walk after the flesh you will die" MEAN NOTHING and have to be explained away.

The modern deceived Christian professes "you cannot stop sinning without the Holy Spirit." The ex-alcoholic Muslim hears this and knows that he stopped drinking without this "Holy Spirit" and thus draws the conclusion that Christianity is nonsense.

People forsake various kinds of sinful behaviour all the time without coming to Christ. Yet try to tell a theologian that a condition of forgiveness is that KNOWN SIN must be forsaken and you'll be deemed a Pelagian Heretic who doesn't know what he is talking about.

I was actually looking over that Lutheran material you linked Zone and I found this...

Article II: Of Original Sin.
1] Also they teach that since the fall of Adam all men begotten in the natural way are born
with sin, that is, without the fear of God, without trust in God, and with 2] concupiscence;
and that this disease, or vice of origin, is truly sin, even now condemning and bringing eternal
death upon those not born again through Baptism and the Holy Ghost.

3] They condemn the Pelagians and others who deny that original depravity is sin, and who,
to obscure the glory of Christ's merit and benefits, argue that man can be justified before
God by his own strength and reason.
The Lutheran Confessions - The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod
http://www.lcms.org/Document.fdoc?src=lcm&id=956

So you believe that a little baby is BORN ALREADY CONDEMNED due to being born with Concupiscence.

Genesis 3:6 completely blows Article II of the Augsburg Confession right out of the water because it clearly demonstrates that Concupiscence existed BEFORE Adam and Eve sinned.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

To teach that concupiscence is an inherited disease is pure foolishness. Jesus had concupiscence because he was "tempted in all points as we are" yet Jesus RULED OVER the flesh by the Spirit continually.

Lutheran doctrine is simply repeating the errors of Augustine and it is no surprise because Martin Luther was an Augustinian Monk and thus highly esteemed the theology of Augustine. The leaven of Augustine has surely spread far and wide today.
 
Nov 26, 2011
3,818
62
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#19
perhaps you should read again....

"Repent (based on genuine Spirit-given conviction of sin -- not simply your human choice)"

You mean to say that SPIRIT-given conviction of sins does not only allude but accomplishes the freedom from bondage to sin?

You mean that you don't understand the difference between "simple human choice" to forsake sin versus "Spirit given conviction of sin"?

The difference between godly sorrow and worldly sorrow?

surely you jest?
Indeed it is the Spirit of God that works a godly sorrow unto repentance but it is DYING WITH CHRIST and thus DYING TO SIN that achieves the release from bondage. This occurs BEFORE salvation not afterwards.

The Bible is VERY CLEAR that the rebellion must cease BEFORE forgiveness is granted. VERY CLEAR!

Modern theology completely negates that truth as I clearly demonstrate. That is the central issue which needs to be addressed.