The MOST CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT MADE

newbirth · Oct 27, 2014

elf3 said:

I don't have to....after his resurrection he told his disciples.....
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

He put mud in a blind man's eye and the blind man saw...he turned water into wine....He had power to do those things...

Matthew 9:6

But that ye may know that the Son of man hath authority on earth to forgive sins (then saith he to the sick of the palsy), Arise, and take up thy bed, and go up unto thy house.

elf3 · Oct 27, 2014

newbirth said:

I first have a question...on this forum you say we must be baptized to be saved and another forum you seem to say "not by works". Aren't you contradicting yourself?

And yes I stand behind Eph 2:8,9 for salvation and justification. But I have also backed that up with other scripture.

I am not trying to be rude or say I just stand behind one verse alone. I use my phone for this so it's a bit harder to post long responses as I am way slow at this typing thing on a phone (even slower on a keyboard lol).

I will write up a list of passages that back up my view as soon as I get a chance.

elf3 · Oct 27, 2014

newbirth said:

So while Jesus was on earth before His ressurection people didn't need to be baptized to be saved but after His ressurection they needed baptized to be saved? That's what you are saying.

newbirth · Oct 27, 2014

elf3 said:

Mark 16:15-16King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]15 [/SUP]And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Ephesians 2:8-10King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

where is the contradiction?

fredjames · Oct 27, 2014

elf3 said:

It is true according to the Old Covenant also that one can incur curse from ignoring the Law of Moses and JESUS did not 'accomplish' them yet on the Cross. For HE was living pleasing GOD according to them and baptizing and preaching the Gospel of the New Covenant.

But did this man believe then JESUS is the MESSIAH and continue with HIM, to learn from HIM how to 'sin no more' and be born again from above, according to the Gospel of John, said to Nicodemus that;

"..............not only of water but also of the HOLY SPIRIT"?

SeaBass · Oct 27, 2014

dcontroversal said:

Jesus is saying the change from OT dispensation to the NT dispensation is now (present tense) taking place, He did NOT say it had already been completed. Again, true worshippers shall worship in the future after the change is completed at some point AFTER Christ's death. In your zeal to call me names, you continue to avoid to dealing with Heb 9:16,17 that you continue to contradict.

Bride · Oct 27, 2014

I think I see the problem. (I'm amazed, I've never seen people not understand something so simple...)

It appears that many people here don't even know what baptism means. Why take issue with the simple meaning? It is all about dying to self as Jesus did. Baptism is crucifixion. Be glad that we have only the water ritual and not what each of us really deserves... or do some not think they need to die to self and demonstrate it in the appointed way? Why instead, argue that it means only HS baptism? Where on earth did THAT rebellious spirit come from? I mentioned this earlier, and it was like someone sicced the wolves on me, as though that wasn't the issue... so what IS the issue?

People here don't know what "baptism" means. Let's see some scholarly acknowledgement from everyone here that it is full submission and personal total participation WATER/BLOOD/HOLY SPIRIT of Christ Jesus who is the Gateway to the Kingdom to those who humbly submit. Can we all agree on this? This argument by "Christians" is really embarrassing for me to witness, please stop this sillyness

newbirth · Oct 27, 2014

elf3 said:

you keep assuming things I did not say....was not baptism being practised while Christ walked the earth...was he not baptised also?
But that ye may know that the Son of man hath authority on earth to forgive sins (then saith he to the sick of the palsy), Arise, and take up thy bed, and go up unto thy house.

look at the red words...that is for you example in Matt....it's the reason Jesus gave for what he did....you don't read scripture do you?

eternally-gratefull · Oct 27, 2014

newbirth said:

1st off. Your attitude sucks. The mere fact you come off saying I am ignorant should put you on automatic ignore. But God is forgiving, and I am supposed to act like Christ, so I will forgive you.

2nd off. Your argument is flawed. It assumes the greek word Baptizo has something to do with water, which it does not. It is not like taking a bath, thus you can not use water as an example. The passage tells us what we are "baptizo'd" in.. Not water, but the death of Christ.

Using your own example. We would have to say we were "bathed" in christ. No one would assume water. so if someone came and bathed in water, and said they fulfilled the verse. they would be mistaken. They replaced Christ with water, that is a very dangerous thing to do!

No one is trying to take the word baptism out my friend. What we are doing is NOT ADDING THE WORD WATER, where you are. There is no water in the passage, your forcing the word where it does not belong.

I was baptised according to Romans 6. Not in water, But in his death and burial. that just as he was raised, I should walk in newness. No water involved, it is the work of God. Not man. A spiritual baptism, NOT PHYSICAL.

I did Die. I was spiritually made dead, thus in faith I humbled myself to the cross, Just like Jesus did. This God imputed his death to me, As Christ died, I died. As Christ was risen, I was given new life. No water involved, Your trying to take a physical work. and add it to faith, which is a dangerous thing, Your making the gospel of gospel of works. not faith.

eternally-gratefull · Oct 27, 2014

newbirth said:

He says

"whoever believes in him, shall never perish, but has eternal life" John 3: 16

He says;

" He who believes is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already because he has not believed in the name of Jesus"

Now if you want to take a questional passage in mark which contradicts these two verses. then feel free. As for me. I will do what Jesus told nicodemus, And believe in him.

or I will accept Mark 16, and not add water to it, But understand Jesus spoke of spiritual baptism there, Not water, the baptism John the baptist spoke of.. you remember, He (jesus) will baptize with the HS and fire.. The one Jesus said to his disciples they would be baptized with (not water) etc etc.

posthuman · Oct 27, 2014

Bride said:

this discussion has been going on for months here in one thread or another, and i came to the same conclusion too - that "baptism" is not being properly understood. it's because of the same kind of thinking that i keep typing "H[SUB]2[/SUB]O" instead of "water" -- because of discussion about John 3, and elsewhere, where we understand that "water" is symbolic of the Word of God. so i want to make that distinction. "baptism by water (the word of God)" is not the same as "baptism by H[SUB]2[/SUB]O" in the strict sense.

i think that when we as believers hear and say the word, we shouldn't confine our understanding of it to a tub of H[SUB]2[/SUB]O and a quick ritual bathing. if that's all baptism is, everywhere it's mentioned in scripture, it certainly is only an empty ritual. H[SUB]2[/SUB]O is a physical, earthly thing. flesh begets flesh.
but the scripture confounds that definition - because Jesus referred to the work of the cross as "baptism," Paul called the exodus "baptism" into Moses, Jesus, John the baptizer and Peter all talked about Christ baptizing with the spirit instead of H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, Paul writes about it as a figurative immersion into Christ, and Peter explicitly says that the baptism that brings us to salvation is not the "putting away of filth from the flesh" ... etc.

the Greek word baptizo is transliterated in English bibles, not translated, and it means "immersion"
immersion into what? this verb takes a direct object. you can't just "be baptized" -- you have to "be baptized unto or into" something.

now, don't we all say "be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost" ?

so we must be immersed into His name. we must abide in Him, or we cannot bear fruit. we must remain in Him, and He remains in us.

all of this talk becomes clear to me when i stop looking at earthly works done by human hands, and see spiritual, heavenly things done by the hand of God.
as far as i can understand, there is one baptism, and it is immersion into Christ.

is discipleship something different than immersing oneself in the teaching and life and knowledge of a Master?
so Christ instructed the apostles to go out and baptize, making disciples of every people. this is exactly an instruction to immerse believers into the name, teaching & gospel of Christ, that they may bear His name.

eternally-gratefull · Oct 27, 2014

newbirth said:

why are you turning this around?

This is a test of how we know we love the children of God. Not how we get saved, or how we actually do it.. Love produces work (just like faith does) work does not produce faith or love, you have it backwards. Your trying to pull the cart before the horse. Not after it.

eternally-gratefull · Oct 27, 2014

newbirth said:

Yeah I did. By having faith in the promise of God. Then HE washes me, and makes me clean (titus 3: 5) it is not by my work (water baptism) but by his work, I recieved the washing of regeneration.(new birth)

Bride · Oct 27, 2014

eternally-gratefull said:

1st off. Your attitude sucks. The mere fact you come off saying I am ignorant should put you on automatic ignore. But God is forgiving, and I am supposed to act like Christ, so I will forgive you.

2nd off. Your argument is flawed. It assumes the greek word Baptizo has something to do with water, which it does not. It is not like taking a bath, thus you can not use water as an example. The passage tells us what we are "baptizo'd" in.. Not water, but the death of Christ.

Using your own example. We would have to say we were "bathed" in christ. No one would assume water. so if someone came and bathed in water, and said they fulfilled the verse. they would be mistaken. They replaced Christ with water, that is a very dangerous thing to do!

No one is trying to take the word baptism out my friend. What we are doing is NOT ADDING THE WORD WATER, where you are. There is no water in the passage, your forcing the word where it does not belong.

I was baptised according to Romans 6. Not in water, But in his death and burial. that just as he was raised, I should walk in newness. No water involved, it is the work of God. Not man. A spiritual baptism, NOT PHYSICAL.

I did Die. I was spiritually made dead, thus in faith I humbled myself to the cross, Just like Jesus did. This God imputed his death to me, As Christ died, I died. As Christ was risen, I was given new life. No water involved, Your trying to take a physical work. and add it to faith, which is a dangerous thing, Your making the gospel of gospel of works. not faith.

Actually, you are quite ignorant in the things you say sir. Newbirth rebuked you, very appropriately I might add. What you post is so unlearned, so unscriptural, and so blatantly false, that you demonstrate rebellious intent toward simple facts. You should read more and respond less, so that you might learn and not be so arrogant in your false doctrine.

posthuman · Oct 27, 2014

newbirth said:

yep, sure does!

born of water (1[SUP]st[/SUP] birth)
born of spirit (2[SUP]nd[/SUP] birth)
born again (referring to a 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] birth)

flesh begets flesh. H[SUB]2[/SUB]O is an earthly, physical thing.
spirit begets spirit. H[SUB]2[/SUB]O ≠ spirit.

Or are ye ignorant that all we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

sounds more like spirit, and less like flesh, to me

posthuman · Oct 27, 2014

i'm a mathematician.
we write proofs.
when you write a proof, it's different from other classes of 'problems' because you know the conclusion and you are working towards linking the first principles to it. in other 'problems' you have the first principles and you try to reach an unknown conclusion.

we know the conclusion of this:
that Jesus Christ is glorified!! this is the conclusion of all things.

so if our reasoning leads us to glorify H[SUB]2[/SUB]O, or glorify rituals, we are in some error. there is something incomplete.
the truth, the right path, the fullness of it, glorifies Christ.

newbirth · Oct 27, 2014

eternally-gratefull said:

1st off. Your attitude sucks. The mere fact you come off saying I am ignorant should put you on automatic ignore. But God is forgiving, and I am supposed to act like Christ, so I will forgive you.

Click to expand...

as I read your response I still see your ignorance....

2nd off. Your argument is flawed. It assumes the greek word Baptizo has something to do with water, which it does not. It is not like taking a bath, thus you can not use water as an example. The passage tells us what we are "baptizo'd" in.. Not water, but the death of Christ.

Click to expand...

I must assume your translation would read....
[SUP]36 [/SUP]And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain HS: and the eunuch said, See, here is HS; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

[SUP]37 [/SUP]And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the HS, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

[SUP]39 [/SUP]And when they were come up out of the HS, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

what good is baptism without water? you take the water you take baptism.....

I was baptised according to Romans 6. Not in water, But in his death and burial. that just as he was raised, I should walk in newness. No water involved, it is the work of God. Not man. A spiritual baptism, NOT PHYSICAL.

Click to expand...

[SUP]4 [/SUP]We were buried therefore with him through baptism unto death: that like as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we also might walk in newness of life.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection;

then you were not buried with him through baptism ...the same baptism Peter commanded...Philip did it ...it is taught in the gospel....Christ did it....all with water......

and you are making your own gospel of disobedience...

I have no doubt you died ...but for what it's worth I don't know what was resurrected....because you are preaching a different gospel bro...

elf3 · Oct 27, 2014

newbirth said:

First of all thank you for that little "jab" accusation there at the end. Yeah actually I don't read scripture.....does study count as reading?

Second yes I understand the "red".

Third do you think Jesus was just proving who He is or was he also teaching His disciples at the same time? For if He was also teaching and baptism saves us don't you think He would have added that?

newbirth · Oct 27, 2014

posthuman said:

Jesus does not separate water and spirit......you separate water and spirit
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

he did not say what is born of water is flesh did he...?
[SUP]6 [/SUP]That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

so tell me how are you baptised into Christ to be baptised into his death....unless you are telling me the HS immerses you into death....The scripture teaches the HS brings newness of life...not death....

posthuman · Oct 27, 2014

newbirth said:

oh, He sure does. have a look, you quoted it, but did you understand it?

newbirth said:

have another look at Acts 10. the spirit gave life, by the living water that is the word of God. the H[SUB]2[/SUB]O came later, as an willing and obedient response to the life already attained and made sure by the work of God. the human work of ritual public confession by baptism, identifying those purchased and approved by God through His Spirit also by an earthly, righteous work.
was it not this same Jesus who sent the Comforter? who else?? then here Christ has made a clear distinction between the gift of God and the obedient self-identification by the sign of immersion in H[SUB]2[/SUB]O.

newbirth said:

maybe you haven't read this?

Very truly I tell you, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed.
But if it dies, it produces many seeds.
Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
(John 12:24-25)

but isn't your argument contradicting itself?
you say the water and spirit are one, and that they together are physical baptism, and that this baptism is into the death of Christ - doesn't it follow in your reasoning that the both the spirit and the water work death? even the death of our old carnal nature, crucified with Christ. this death is nothing to be ashamed of, but rejoiced over, brother !!!

The MOST CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT MADE

Banned

elf3

Guest

elf3

Guest

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

Banned

eternally-gratefull

Guest

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Senior Member

eternally-gratefull

Guest

eternally-gratefull

Guest

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

elf3

Guest

Banned

Senior Member