The Pentecostal and Charasmatic issue

[wolfwint]

Well wattie to answer your question and I can't speak for everyone but as I said these denominations are a thorn in my side because as I said it only splits the body of Christ as Jesus said how can a kingdom stand against itself? I don't even like to call myself denominational because that itself is classified as a denomination.

All I can say is I am that I am, whatever it is God needs or wants me to be then that is what I will be if he asks he will receive

Blain, thank you for the outline in your posts. Since i am a christian i never thougth in denominations. In heaven there will be no denominations.
What you wrote about Charismatics. Charismatic is no denomination, its a movement. Which occurs around 50 years later in several waves, after the pentecostal movement began in Azusa Street. In different to Charismatics, Pentecostals have own churches.
The thing which me bothers is, that the doctrine of be baptised with the Holy Spirit with the manifestations which you wrote. Are not occur in church history after the apostolic time. The first Person which received the gift of the Holy spirit by laying hand upon her was Agnes N Ozman. This was 1st january 1901 in Topeka, kansas.
In the different to all known denominations which are foundet from persons, the pentecostal movement claim to be foundet from the Holy Spirit who gave the gifts as he did during the apostolic time.
If this would be so, then it is not understandable that between the Apostolic time and 1901 this not happend among christians. And also it was not happend to all christians at all time. In the bible evidents in acts (2,10,19) we do not found that the people had to pray ore beg the Holy Spirit to come upon them. The Holy Spirit and his gifts was sent from God/Jesus.
And instead to unit the christianity, the pentecostal movement divide the christianity, more then it was before.
Today we found more openenss in all denominations for the doctrine of the charismatics and pentecostals. But i doubt that this is a good sign. Because of cost of the truth. F.e. last year 100 pentecostal leaders had a meeting with the rcc pope.

The doctrine of be baptised with the Holy Spirit as a second expierience is a doctrine which is not taught by the NT.

 

[1ofthem]

I went to a Pentecostal church once in the US and after that it took me multiple years till I dared to enter one again, I was just in the states for about 3 weeks and wasnt all too fluid in english yet and only had a german luther bible.
The people that did the bible study thought I had a demonic problem because the spirit of God didnt give me the translations to the german bible into english, nor could read the old KJV.
But by now I am just perfectly fine with em lol. Im even with the organists and stuff at our National prayer conference that started today (im only there tomorrow) and haven't had a problem with Pentecostals ever since.
I have 2 Baptist pastors in my family and never had a problem with them either. Ive always went to the catholic priest when I felt the need of a blessing.

LOL... It's good to know that God has good people everywhere. I love worshiping God with people who are worshiping him in Spirit and in Truth out of a pure heart, no matter what denomination they belong to.

Hope you and everyone here has a good weekend!

 

[Demi777]

LOL... It's good to know that God has good people everywhere. I love worshiping God with people who are worshiping him in Spirit and in Truth out of a pure heart, no matter what denomination they belong to.

Hope you and everyone here has a good weekend!

Same to you my friend God bless you

 

[Miri]

Hi Blain, I can't speak for the churches in the US, but I go to a Pentecostal church
and it's brilliant.


My first church did not speak much about the Holy Spirit, in fact some of the leaders seemed
to go to great pains to refute the gifts of the holy spirit. But yet as a young person I
had a hunger to find out about the Holy Spirit. I also had godly dreams but I never
dared to tell anyone or ask questions about them, I would just have been labelled
weird or people would have assumed I was making it up.

I remember getting a book about the Holy Spirit and it was as if my understanding was
opened. But then in church the next Sunday, I over heard one of the youth leaders
critising the author of that same book. So I dare not tell them I had read it and learnt
so much from it. So I spent most of my early years completely confused about the
Holy Spirit. As a church we barely read the verses in the bible about the gifts.

Then fast forward a number of years and I started to attend an evangelical Pentecostal
church. From the very first service I felt at peace in that place. I was a bit stiff and starchy
as I witnessed the freedom the people had around me to worship God as I was not use
to doing church that way - raising hands in the air, tongues etc. But the sermons just
made sense and I could feel the presence of the Holy Spirit in a real tangible way.

Actually I was recently invited to another church when I met up again with the same
youth leaders of my old church, but honestly i could never ever go to a church again
which stifled the work of the Holy Spirit.

It has been in the pentecostal church that I properly developed a relationship with
Jesus and realised He is not just remote and distant. It was in the Pentecostal church
that I was at last able to talk to others about dreams and visions it was the place I have met
personally with the Holy Spirit.

Can I speak in tongues? Well a little but usually only during worship times of singing etc.
It's like something which rises within you. I've never been able to turn it on and off like
others can. For me it only happens at spontaneous moments.

We do not have people running around the church or barking like dogs. What we do have
is people worshipping God from the heart, free to do so without people giving you funny
odd ball looks. Lol

Maybe you can try the Pentecostal church and decided for your self if it is for you.
Dont use a website to look for information as every church will be different. I would
say you need to look for a well balanced church. Not one that over emphasises
the gifts and the Holy Spirit to the detriment of everything else. But also one
which does not stifle or deny the work of the Holy Spirit.

Happy hunting

 

[crossnote]

Blain, Here is a novel approach. Go visit a Pentecostal Church and speak with the pastor...then go visit a Charismatic Church and speak to their pastor (if they have one). This is usually more informative and more personal than pulling down a couple of sites off the internet.

 

[chancer]

Blain, Here is a novel approach. Go visit a Pentecostal Church and speak with the pastor...then go visit a Charismatic Church and speak to their pastor (if they have one). This is usually more informative and more personal than pulling down a couple of sites off the internet.

sound advice

 

[ji]

Its God who decides who goes to Heaven and not goes.That's what ultimately matters.

The issue like this comes because of lack of Prayer....Pray and mediate till God guides you, and you are sure(faith matters).
Being Holy Spirit filled puts a person in more dangerous trials and must make that person more humble and gentle.Its not just talking in tongues(that can be easily faked)...its walking in Holy fire....its given for sealing(Supernatural Anointing) a person to the Day Christ comes in Glory to pick up the Saints during His Secret Coming.Speaking in tongues don't qualify,but growing to the full stature of Christ only qualifies..

Denomination doesn't matter,path matters,doctrine matters,....only by Faith can man can please God(Heb Ch.11 KJV)..

Miracles don't matter,gifts don't matter,talents don't matter,authorities don't matter,different names and different man made denominations don't matter.
Only Faith Matters...and it matters through the one and only way Christ went to Heaven after defeating death by the Power of God(Holy Spirit)

It all comes to the point where i have to ask myself 'do i qualify as a good organ of the Bride of Christ'?
Bride of Christ(in Book of Revelation) - True Church(The First Born) to be taken to God prepared by Holy Spirit;irrespective of man made walls.Its a chosen set of people(dead in Christ and those who are alive) from various parts of the world(who eagerly prepared their lives individually to see the face of Jesus by sacrificing all else in their lives)and not from a denomination somewhere.

And if each and every person has to qualify then they need to ask the question to themselves(do i qualify as good organ of the Bride of Christ?),and must be Baptized in water,Baptized in Holy Fire(Baptism of the Holy Spirit) and must have Born again experience.Speaking in tongues is not the issue,nor does pentecostal/charismatic views,etc matters...its "Lord,whether i qualify for your Kingdom"?..its Judging myself and asking God to guide through Bible.

Pray until He answers,arguments and diverse opinions will only make more confusion.
Jesus was a Prayer Warrior,so must be a Christian....doesn't matter which denomination.
Jesus knew all the Jewish Doctrines,He taught and corrected and gave way to New Testament.Apostles followed and through their life it was made clear How a Christian Life should be.Read-Meditate-Pray.
Pray till God shows the clear path.There will be no more confusion.At the end its going to be individual,not denominational....

Decode ACTS OF APOSTLES through Payer.Ask Jesus to shed light so you can realize what happened then during that day of pentecost(Acts 2).It's how Christianity started spreading.That's the foundation of Christianity.Its not speaking in tongues.That's a sign given for recognition....not a custom.When a bulb is lighted heat and light can be sensed,but not the power that made that happen.So is the Anointing of Holy Spirit,its invisible.
No denomination has rights over that because God(who is the judge of all) own it.
If one needs to get to Heaven,then it must be through the Path Jesus went.Its contrary to what a denomination for money/authority says.
And one might be a part of one denomination or another.But one must be strictly connected to Christ through Prayer.That only matters.
Mathew 24:13 KJV

 

[kaylagrl]

this is mainly a short version of what I read on the site but then I read this third part called the third wave and then I was very confused


1. Those associated with this movement do not wish to be labeled “Pentecostal” or “charismatic.” despite sharing Pentecostal-like experiences and doctrines. They simply wish to be known as evangelicals who are open to the Holy Spirit.

2. They are Gnostics. They believe God can and does communicate outside of the Scripture and directly to His children, giving new revelation that is apart from Scripture. Third Wavers thus deny the sufficiency of Scripture.

3. Five-Fold Ministry is one of the "truths" God is supposedly restoring to the church and is associated with the Latter Rain Movement. This is a system of church government with apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. See The Faulty Foundation of the Five-Fold Ministry by Robert M. Bowman.

4. In these end times, God is re-establishing the offices of prophet and apostle with the power and authority beyond anything experienced by the Old Testament prophets and the New Testament apostles. For more information, see False Prophets, Pseudo Apostles, and a New Gospel

5. Unity is far more important than doctrine. Unity is built through relationships, not doctrine. Doctrinal differences are set aside. As a result, those riding this wave are able to infiltrate various churches with the goal of influencing the church to accept the vision of the Third Wave which is unity under modern day apostles and prophets.

6. Power Evangelism and Power Encounters. Jesus and the apostles met the needs of people by healing, casting out demons, and even raising the dead. These miracles made people interested in the Good News. This is how we should evangelize today. A Power Encounter happens when the Kingdom of God encounters the Kingdom of Satan. It is here when God shows his power over Satan and people turn to the Lord.

7. Those associated with this movement are not waiting for the return of Christ but for the Church to rise up and usher in the kingdom. The ushering in of the kingdom depends on the church. Instead of looking for the coming Savior, the church is to solve the problems of planet earth. God’s glory now replaces the physical Son of God coming back.

8. Individuals can be demonized; that is, a demon can live within a part of the body. Even a Christian can be demonized. A demon cannot inhabit the spirit of a Christian, but a demon can live in the body of a Christian.

1. Quote "Those associated with this movement do not wish to be labeled “Pentecostal”

Been Pentecostal most my life. I call myself Pentecostal I dont care that others do. In all the Pentecostal churches I traveled in,a lot in 20yrs. No one cared about being called Pentecostal.

2. They are Gnostics. They believe God can and does communicate outside of the Scripture and directly to His children, giving new revelation that is apart from Scripture.

No,not true at all. Some independent Pentecostals believe a lot of crazy things. But an Assemblies of God church doesn't believe or teach that the Bible is not sufficient or there are revelations outside the Bible.

3. Five-Fold Ministry is one of the "truths" God is supposedly restoring to the church and is associated with the Latter Rain Movement.

No, again that is independant no name Pentecostal churches. Mainline churches do not agree with that.

4. In these end times, God is re-establishing the offices of prophet and apostle with the power and authority beyond anything experienced by the Old Testament prophets and the New Testament apostles. For more information, see False Prophets, Pseudo Apostles, and a New Gospel

Sorry,broken record but independent Pentecostals not mainline, believe this.

5.Unity is far more important than doctrine. Unity is built through relationships, not doctrine. Doctrinal differences are set aside. As a result, those riding this wave are able to infiltrate various churches with the goal of influencing the church to accept the vision of the Third Wave which is unity under modern day apostles and prophets.

Sigh, not true. Doctrines are very important. Third wave,never heard of it. Again,been Pentecostal all my life and traveled in hundreds of churches and never heard of this.

6. Power Evangelism and Power Encounters. Jesus and the apostles met the needs of people by healing, casting out demons, and even raising the dead.

Yes,we believe in healing, casting out demons is rarely encountered,very rarely. I hear missionaries talk more if that. Yes I believe Jesus can raise a person from the dead. Has nothing to do with our power, simply asking in faith. It Gods power that heals,raises from the dead etc,not ours.

7. Those associated with this movement are not waiting for the return of Christ but for the Church to rise up and usher in the kingdom.

No, that is a specific belief of one of the no name,independent brands. Mainline Pentecostals do not believe this.


8. Individuals can be demonized; that is, a demon can live within a part of the body.

Yes, a person can be possessed,same as in the NT.

9.Even a Christian can be demonized.

No,no,no! I wont repeat again but no, dont believe that at all.

10.A demon cannot inhabit the spirit of a Christian, but a demon can live in the body of a Christian.

Nope! No,cant happen. We dont believe that. Light and dark cannot abide together. No!

 

[wolfwint]

Sigh, not true. Doctrines are very important. Third wave,never heard of it. Again,been Pentecostal all my life and traveled in hundreds of churches and never heard of this.


The history of Charismatic and Pentecostal movement since beginning in 1900 is divided in 3 waves of the Holy Spirit.
The 1. wave is the pentecostal movement since around 1900
The 2. wave is the charismatic movement since around 1960
The 3. wave is the called "Power evangelism" taugth from John Wimber at Fuller Seminary since around 1980
if you google it you will find more information about it

 

[jb]

The Pentecostal and Charasmatic issue

You might want to start off by having a look at This

 

[Willie-T]

We went to two Pentecostal churches, off and on, for a couple of years while we were still searching, but they were too dogmatically legalistic for us.

 

[Grace777x70]

We went to two Pentecostal churches, off and on, for a couple of years while we were still searching, but they were too dogmatically legalistic for us.

My experience with some Pentecostal and Charismatic churches was the same. Pretty legalistic and they gave lip-service to grace but they definitely were not grace-based at all. But then again I have not been to every Pentecostal or Charismatic church in the world either. I'm sure a lot are coming out of legalism as God is revealing Jesus and His finished work to so many people world wide now.

 

[Willie-T]

My experience with some Pentecostal and Charismatic churches was the same. Pretty legalistic and they gave lip-service to grace but they definitely were not grace-based at all. But then again I have not been to every Pentecostal or Charismatic church in the world either. I'm sure a lot are coming out of legalism as God is revealing Jesus and His finished work to so many people world wide now.

God seems to be waking a lot of people up. We have a Presbyterian church now sharing our building, and their preacher would probably be shunned at most PCA churches, even though he is a great guy, and closer to Jesus than most preachers.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

this is mainly a short version of what I read on the site but then I read this third part called the third wave and then I was very confused


1. Those associated with this movement do not wish to be labeled “Pentecostal” or “charismatic.” despite sharing Pentecostal-like experiences and doctrines. They simply wish to be known as evangelicals who are open to the Holy Spirit.

2. They are Gnostics. They believe God can and does communicate outside of the Scripture and directly to His children, giving new revelation that is apart from Scripture. Third Wavers thus deny the sufficiency of Scripture.

3. Five-Fold Ministry is one of the "truths" God is supposedly restoring to the church and is associated with the Latter Rain Movement. This is a system of church government with apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. See The Faulty Foundation of the Five-Fold Ministry by Robert M. Bowman.

4. In these end times, God is re-establishing the offices of prophet and apostle with the power and authority beyond anything experienced by the Old Testament prophets and the New Testament apostles. For more information, see False Prophets, Pseudo Apostles, and a New Gospel

5. Unity is far more important than doctrine. Unity is built through relationships, not doctrine. Doctrinal differences are set aside. As a result, those riding this wave are able to infiltrate various churches with the goal of influencing the church to accept the vision of the Third Wave which is unity under modern day apostles and prophets.

6. Power Evangelism and Power Encounters. Jesus and the apostles met the needs of people by healing, casting out demons, and even raising the dead. These miracles made people interested in the Good News. This is how we should evangelize today. A Power Encounter happens when the Kingdom of God encounters the Kingdom of Satan. It is here when God shows his power over Satan and people turn to the Lord.

7. Those associated with this movement are not waiting for the return of Christ but for the Church to rise up and usher in the kingdom. The ushering in of the kingdom depends on the church. Instead of looking for the coming Savior, the church is to solve the problems of planet earth. God’s glory now replaces the physical Son of God coming back.

8. Individuals can be demonized; that is, a demon can live within a part of the body. Even a Christian can be demonized. A demon cannot inhabit the spirit of a Christian, but a demon can live in the body of a Christian.

Have you attended different Pentecostal and/or charismatic churches for their services?
If so did any of them ever site the Apostles' Creed?

 

[Blain]

Have you attended different Pentecostal and/or charismatic churches for their services?
If so did any of them ever site the Apostles' Creed?

I have only been to one and I never went back to it it just kind of freaked me out a whole group put their hands on my head and started praying over me and it just gave me a bad feeling inside.
Like have you ever felt the uneasy feeling inside as if the spirit is saying to you this isn't good? it was like but more like run away now kind of feeling something wasn't right but I never heard a creed I honestly didn't stay long enough

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

I have only been to one and I never went back to it it just kind of freaked me out a whole group put their hands on my head and started praying over me and it just gave me a bad feeling inside.
Like have you ever felt the uneasy feeling inside as if the spirit is saying to you this isn't good? it was like but more like run away now kind of feeling something wasn't right but I never heard a creed I honestly didn't stay long enough

Interesting. Did they do courtesy or prayer drops? Not sure what this is called exactly, maybe "slain in the spirit".

 

[soggykitten]

This is a four year old discussion. At least it made it past the terrible two's.

Having said that, I've never attended a Pentecostal church service. Though, thinking back to the OP, if I were invited I'd go just to know what it felt like to be in that atmosphere. Reading about Charismatic Pentecostals, and Charismatic is an umbrella term that can apply to other Christian denominations, and Pentecostal services is one thing. Being there affords a real opportunity I think to follow the leading of the holy spirit.
If it is positive the spirit will tell you. If not, I think the spirit will inform us on that level as well.

I don't know if I'd accommodate an entire church putting their hands on my head. That would be a little odd. Especially if I'm a first timer in the congregation. And knowing me, as I ducked out from the attempt, I'd say something quirky while looking for the door. Like, No, you cannot check to see if there really is a brain in there! I assure you there is and it was appropriated from a very willing donor ferret so no worries about ferret noggin invasion. Byeeee.

 

[Blain]

Interesting. Did they do courtesy or prayer drops? Not sure what this is called exactly, maybe "slain in the spirit".

Well I didn't see any holy spirit seizure attacks or those drops but something was not right and I knew to leave.
And I don't believe in those things I think if God is going to fill you up your not gonna just drop and start haveing a seizure
I mean out of all the fake things I have seen and heard of that right there is just like really guys?

 

[Blain]

This is a four year old discussion. At least it made it past the terrible two's.

Having said that, I've never attended a Pentecostal church service. Though, thinking back to the OP, if I were invited I'd go just to know what it felt like to be in that atmosphere. Reading about Charismatic Pentecostals, and Charismatic is an umbrella term that can apply to other Christian denominations, and Pentecostal services is one thing. Being there affords a real opportunity I think to follow the leading of the holy spirit.
If it is positive the spirit will tell you. If not, I think the spirit will inform us on that level as well.

I don't know if I'd accommodate an entire church putting their hands on my head. That would be a little odd. Especially if I'm a first timer in the congregation. And knowing me, as I ducked out from the attempt, I'd say something quirky while looking for the door. Like, No, you cannot check to see if there really is a brain in there! I assure you there is and it was appropriated from a very willing donor ferret so no worries about ferret noggin invasion. Byeeee.

Yeah I hear you, I have always wanted to go to an actual pentecostal church not a fake one or one that makes you uncomfortable being in, the holy spirit even though out og God the father and Jesus he is the least I understand he just fascinates me I ahev said it before on hre but I can sense when the spirit is there when I enter the room if someone is filled with him and I mean really filled with him I can sense and almost see this light and life in them.

I believe in the pentecostal not all of them but the power of the spirit the flow and embrace of him the healing and miracles I believe in them but never have found a church that actually thrives in it.
To me a pentecostal is not over spiritual they are overly spiritually filled they walk in him and it is more than evident you can tell something about them is different and honestly faking things like that to me is a massive insult to the spirit

 

[garee]

Interesting. Did they do courtesy or prayer drops? Not sure what this is called exactly, maybe "slain in the spirit".

What I find interesting is the foundation of the teaching (Isaiah 28). It reveals the exact sign that the sign seekers wonder after, the same which they are performing. . . filling something with something ?. Making a noise and fall backward mocking the spirit of judgment which is falling backward slain in the spirit.: It would appear to be an indication of a false gospel, false prophecy" And Christians are warned that even though they performed them they will refuse to obey and put away that tradition. . And again it is confirmed in 1 Corinthians 14 ... . Yet they will not hear but continue to fall backward slain in the spirit. .

Isaiah 28: 9-13 The people say, “Who does he think he is trying to teach and explain his message to? Does he think we are babies who were at their mother’s breast only a very short time ago? He speaks to us as though we were babies:

“Saw lasaw saw lasaw
Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw
Ze’er sham ze’er sham.”

So God will use this strange way of talking, and he will use other languages to speak to these people. In the past he spoke to them and said, “Here is a resting place. Let those who are tired come and rest. This is the place of peace.”

But they would not listen to him. So the Lord’s words will be senseless sounds to them:

“Saw lasaw saw lasaw.
Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw.
Ze’er sham ze’er sham.”

When the people try to walk, they will fall backwards. They will be defeated, trapped, and captured.

Out of all the oral traditions of men. Why copy the spirit of judgement, falling backward slain. ?