The Plan of salvation.
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FreeGrace2 said:
That means WHEN they believe they are given eternal life.
I do not. I have it biblically correct. John 5:24 says those who believe possess eternal life. What isn't in the Bible is any verse that says that God gives eternal life so they can believe.
Unfortunately you missed a key verse here. Which explains everything.
Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
The last phrase in red explains the first phrase (bolded). iow, too be made alive means to be saved. You can't have one without the other, and there are no verses that show a person who has one before or after the other. They occur simultaneously.
Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Notice the red phrase is the exact same wording as in the last phrase in v.5.
The blue words show the means or mechanics of HOW one is saved.
So, being made alive (regeneration) AND salvation, which occur simultaneously, are by faith.
Faith first, followed by regeneration and salvation. The biblical order.
That means WHEN they believe they are given eternal life.
I do not. I have it biblically correct. John 5:24 says those who believe possess eternal life. What isn't in the Bible is any verse that says that God gives eternal life so they can believe.
Unfortunately you missed a key verse here. Which explains everything.
Eph 2:5 - made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved.
The last phrase in red explains the first phrase (bolded). iow, too be made alive means to be saved. You can't have one without the other, and there are no verses that show a person who has one before or after the other. They occur simultaneously.
Eph 2:8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
Notice the red phrase is the exact same wording as in the last phrase in v.5.
The blue words show the means or mechanics of HOW one is saved.
So, being made alive (regeneration) AND salvation, which occur simultaneously, are by faith.
Faith first, followed by regeneration and salvation. The biblical order.
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FreeGrace2 said:
There have been many authors who have written articles on "religion" who accurately described salvation yet didn't believe it. Which proves that unregenerate people CAN and DO understand the gospel message even though not believing it
This doesn't make sense. "when they harmonize together"?
When don't scriptures harmonize together?? They ALWAYS harmonize together. Your claim is in error.
Apparently you didn't read all I said, or didn't understand it.
I don't "consult" secular articles. But when I would read magazines like Time, Newsweek, Life, etc I would on occasion come across articles by unbelievers who would accurately describe the gospel. Whether you believe what I say or not doesn't matter to me at all.
What matters is that such articles PROVE that unbelievers ARE able to understand the gospel.
In fact, the Bible makes this clear. Here are some examples.
Acts 14:2 - But the Jews who refused to believe stirred up the other Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.
Acts 19:9 - But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.
Doesn't one have to at least understand an issue BEFORE they refuse to believe it?
iow, can you refuse to believe what you don't even understand or grasp? If you think you can, please give an example.
There have been many authors who have written articles on "religion" who accurately described salvation yet didn't believe it. Which proves that unregenerate people CAN and DO understand the gospel message even though not believing it
This doesn't make sense. "when they harmonize together"?
When don't scriptures harmonize together?? They ALWAYS harmonize together. Your claim is in error.
Apparently you didn't read all I said, or didn't understand it.
I don't "consult" secular articles. But when I would read magazines like Time, Newsweek, Life, etc I would on occasion come across articles by unbelievers who would accurately describe the gospel. Whether you believe what I say or not doesn't matter to me at all.
What matters is that such articles PROVE that unbelievers ARE able to understand the gospel.
In fact, the Bible makes this clear. Here are some examples.
Acts 14:2 - But the Jews who refused to believe stirred up the other Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.
Acts 19:9 - But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.
Doesn't one have to at least understand an issue BEFORE they refuse to believe it?
iow, can you refuse to believe what you don't even understand or grasp? If you think you can, please give an example.
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FreeGrace2 said:
I don't disagree. However, 1 Cor 2:14 doesn't apply to the gospel message, since it is merely a TRUST issue. There have been many authors who have written articles on "religion" who accurately described salvation yet didn't believe it. Which proves that unregenerate people CAN and DO understand the gospel message even though not believing it.
This is not true..
No, it is potential believers. That's what Jesus said.
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
"shall not perish" and "have eternal life" are in the subjunctive mood. iow, the "whoever" refers to those who hear and believe the gospel. But the subjunctive mood shows potential.
They AREN'T believers until they believe.
Since you didn't make clear what your response is in reference to in my post, I don't know what you are responding to.
Matt 11:25 - At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
Given your calvinistic view of Scripture, I suppose you believe that Jesus didn't die for everyone, but only 'the elect'. So of course, you would take this verse to support that idea.
However, there are many verses that plainly SAY that Jesus died for everyone, so we can ignore that error.
Do you know why Jesus spoke in parables? He was giving truth to the unbelievers who wouldn't have believed even if He taught in plain language. And that was to fulfill Scripture.
Matt 13:13 This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
I don't disagree. However, 1 Cor 2:14 doesn't apply to the gospel message, since it is merely a TRUST issue. There have been many authors who have written articles on "religion" who accurately described salvation yet didn't believe it. Which proves that unregenerate people CAN and DO understand the gospel message even though not believing it.
This is not true..
No, it is potential believers. That's what Jesus said.
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
"shall not perish" and "have eternal life" are in the subjunctive mood. iow, the "whoever" refers to those who hear and believe the gospel. But the subjunctive mood shows potential.
They AREN'T believers until they believe.
Since you didn't make clear what your response is in reference to in my post, I don't know what you are responding to.
Matt 11:25 - At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
Given your calvinistic view of Scripture, I suppose you believe that Jesus didn't die for everyone, but only 'the elect'. So of course, you would take this verse to support that idea.
However, there are many verses that plainly SAY that Jesus died for everyone, so we can ignore that error.
Do you know why Jesus spoke in parables? He was giving truth to the unbelievers who wouldn't have believed even if He taught in plain language. And that was to fulfill Scripture.
Matt 13:13 This is why I speak to them in parables: “Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.
14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah:
John 17:2 - As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
John 6:39 - And this is the Father's will which hash sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. These scriptures says that he only died for "AS MANY AS GOD GAVE HIM" and if he does not lose any, but will raise them up at the last day, it does not mean he died for all mankind, unless he is going to raise all mankind up at the last day.
Who is it that will believe? Acts 13:48 - As many as were ordained to eternal life.
John 6:39 - And this is the Father's will which hash sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. These scriptures says that he only died for "AS MANY AS GOD GAVE HIM" and if he does not lose any, but will raise them up at the last day, it does not mean he died for all mankind, unless he is going to raise all mankind up at the last day.
Who is it that will believe? Acts 13:48 - As many as were ordained to eternal life.
FreeGrace2 said:
However, there are many verses that plainly SAY that Jesus died for everyone, so we can ignore that error.
Just who do you think God gives to Jesus? Random unbelievers to regenerate?
No, the Bible tells us plainly:
John 6:44- “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
This verse parallels John 17:2. Now read the next verse:
John 6:45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
Plain as day. Everyone has been taught by God (Rom 1:19-21). Those who have heard and learned "comes to Him".
So, it is BELIEVERS that God has given to His Son.
Sorry to burst another bubble of yours, but the Greek word for "ordained" is tasso. It never means "ordained" and is never translated that way in the NT. It comes from military usage and means to "arrange" "set in a certain station" "to assign".
The "voice" of the word is described as "middle or passive" since the form is the same in both voices. The middle voice means the subject acts upon himself, while the passive means an outside force acts on the subject.
So the only way to determine which voice is meant is from the context. And we have context, from which to determine.
Acts 13-
42 As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath.
43 When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord.
So, from these verses, we see the interest from the people to hear Paul again.
So, these verses show that the middle voice was meant. iow, the Gentiles "arranged" themselves (passive voice) to hear Paul again.
However, there are many verses that plainly SAY that Jesus died for everyone, so we can ignore that error.
Just who do you think God gives to Jesus? Random unbelievers to regenerate?
No, the Bible tells us plainly:
John 6:44- “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
This verse parallels John 17:2. Now read the next verse:
John 6:45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
Plain as day. Everyone has been taught by God (Rom 1:19-21). Those who have heard and learned "comes to Him".
So, it is BELIEVERS that God has given to His Son.
Sorry to burst another bubble of yours, but the Greek word for "ordained" is tasso. It never means "ordained" and is never translated that way in the NT. It comes from military usage and means to "arrange" "set in a certain station" "to assign".
The "voice" of the word is described as "middle or passive" since the form is the same in both voices. The middle voice means the subject acts upon himself, while the passive means an outside force acts on the subject.
So the only way to determine which voice is meant is from the context. And we have context, from which to determine.
Acts 13-
42 As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath.
43 When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord.
So, from these verses, we see the interest from the people to hear Paul again.
So, these verses show that the middle voice was meant. iow, the Gentiles "arranged" themselves (passive voice) to hear Paul again.
Some of the Jews that were responsible for crucifying Jesus were born again by having their old heart of stone exchanged for a fleshy heart that could feel guilt when pricked by God. Acts 2:36-37 - Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, men and brethren, what must we do.
In contrast, those that still had their hearts of stone, in Acts 7:54, after hearing Stephen preach the same sermon, were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
When Saul was converted on the road to Damascus, God ask him "why do you kick against the pricks".
In contrast, those that still had their hearts of stone, in Acts 7:54, after hearing Stephen preach the same sermon, were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
When Saul was converted on the road to Damascus, God ask him "why do you kick against the pricks".
FreeGrace2 said:
So you just ignore John 5:24 then. Why?
What translation are you reading from? Or do you just like to ADD to the Word of God. You can leave out your parenthesis since it doesn't occur in the Bible.
The word "believe" is in the present tense, and so is "HATH". They occur at the same time. If the eternal life preceded believing, the Greek would have shown it. And it doesn't.
I was waiting for this. I have an interlinear parallel NT in Greek and English, by Alfred Marshall, and on page 744, he translates the Greek this way "of (in) Christ". So he equates the word.
Let's look at the verse:
know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith of Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
Yes, the first sentence says we are justified by the faith (or faithfulness) OF Jesus Christ. No problem. Of course we are.
However, please read on. "So too, we have put OUR FAITH IN IN IN Christ Jesus that (purpose clause) we may be justified by faith IN IN IN Christ.
So the second sentence clarifies or explains the first sentence.
Please show me ANY verse that clearly limits Christ's death for ONLY believers.
So you just ignore John 5:24 then. Why?
What translation are you reading from? Or do you just like to ADD to the Word of God. You can leave out your parenthesis since it doesn't occur in the Bible.
The word "believe" is in the present tense, and so is "HATH". They occur at the same time. If the eternal life preceded believing, the Greek would have shown it. And it doesn't.
I was waiting for this. I have an interlinear parallel NT in Greek and English, by Alfred Marshall, and on page 744, he translates the Greek this way "of (in) Christ". So he equates the word.
Let's look at the verse:
know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith of Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.
Yes, the first sentence says we are justified by the faith (or faithfulness) OF Jesus Christ. No problem. Of course we are.
However, please read on. "So too, we have put OUR FAITH IN IN IN Christ Jesus that (purpose clause) we may be justified by faith IN IN IN Christ.
So the second sentence clarifies or explains the first sentence.
Please show me ANY verse that clearly limits Christ's death for ONLY believers.
I couldn't disagree more. The REASON the people participated in the crucifixion was because they rejected His claim to be God's Son.
They viewed Him as a mortal only, and their law said that anyone who claimed to be God would die.
I don't see any relevance of this to the discussion.
And what is your point?
They viewed Him as a mortal only, and their law said that anyone who claimed to be God would die.
I don't see any relevance of this to the discussion.
And what is your point?
And who is it that he will raise up at the last day? John 6:39 - it is "that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing but raise it up again at the last day".
So, how did they arrange themselves to eternal life. It does not say arranged themselves to hear Paul again.
It does say that God exchanges their stony heart to a fleshy heart that can be pricked to feel guilt and believe.
Your version has changed the word "OF" Christ to "I
My point is , that God pricks the changed heart that was changed in the new spiritual birth, and he does not prick the heart of stone in the un-regenerant man.
N" Christ
So, how did they arrange themselves to eternal life. It does not say arranged themselves to hear Paul again.
It does say that God exchanges their stony heart to a fleshy heart that can be pricked to feel guilt and believe.
Your version has changed the word "OF" Christ to "I
My point is , that God pricks the changed heart that was changed in the new spiritual birth, and he does not prick the heart of stone in the un-regenerant man.
N" Christ
FreeGrace2 said:
John 6:44- “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
Interesting that you didn't include the next verse from my post. v.45 explains who will come to Jesus. Those who have listened and learned from the Father.
They showed up.
[UOTE] It does not say arranged themselves to hear Paul again.[/QUOTE]
Here are the 3 verses again:
42 As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath.
43 When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord.
These verses show the high interest in hearing Paul again. I love v.44 - "almost the whole city gathered to hear the Word"!!
SInce the only way to determine whether tasso is a middle or passive voice, as I explained last time, we have to look at the context, and these 3 verses show the interest of the Gentiles in hearing Paul again.
What the context doesn't show is God arranging anyone. So we know that Luke meant the middle voice; the Gentiles arranged themselves by showing up. The word can be translated "line up". If you've ever attended a concert or something in a big crowd, of course you have to "line up" to get it.
There is no support for the passive voice here. There is support for the middle voice.
FreeGrace2 said:
I do not. I have it biblically correct. John 5:24 says those who believe possess eternal life. What isn't in the Bible is any verse that says that God gives eternal life so they can believe
No, there is no verse that says that God changes hearts so they can believe. Or quote the verse that does.
?
The biblical fact is that regeneration and salvation occur together. Eph 2;5
And Eph 2;8 says we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. So faith precedes salvation and regeneration.
John 6:44- “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.
Interesting that you didn't include the next verse from my post. v.45 explains who will come to Jesus. Those who have listened and learned from the Father.
They showed up.
[UOTE] It does not say arranged themselves to hear Paul again.[/QUOTE]
Here are the 3 verses again:
42 As Paul and Barnabas were leaving the synagogue, the people invited them to speak further about these things on the next Sabbath.
43 When the congregation was dismissed, many of the Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who talked with them and urged them to continue in the grace of God.
44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord.
These verses show the high interest in hearing Paul again. I love v.44 - "almost the whole city gathered to hear the Word"!!
SInce the only way to determine whether tasso is a middle or passive voice, as I explained last time, we have to look at the context, and these 3 verses show the interest of the Gentiles in hearing Paul again.
What the context doesn't show is God arranging anyone. So we know that Luke meant the middle voice; the Gentiles arranged themselves by showing up. The word can be translated "line up". If you've ever attended a concert or something in a big crowd, of course you have to "line up" to get it.
There is no support for the passive voice here. There is support for the middle voice.
FreeGrace2 said:
I do not. I have it biblically correct. John 5:24 says those who believe possess eternal life. What isn't in the Bible is any verse that says that God gives eternal life so they can believe
No, there is no verse that says that God changes hearts so they can believe. Or quote the verse that does.
?
The biblical fact is that regeneration and salvation occur together. Eph 2;5
And Eph 2;8 says we are saved by grace THROUGH FAITH. So faith precedes salvation and regeneration.
FreeGrace2 said:
Please show me ANY verse that clearly limits Christ's death for ONLY believers.
John 6:37-40
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
Nope. Nothing about dying ONLY for some.
John 17:2 - For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.
Still nope. Nothing about dying ONLY for some.
Both texts speak of the fact that God the Father has given believers to His Son. That makes sense. But neither even addresses who He died for.
Here's my list of verses that clarifies all this:
John 1:29 - The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
John 4:42 - They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”
2 Cor 5-
14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
1 Tim 2-
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
I've heard all the ways Calvinists try to spin these verses trying to make them sound like Christ's death was limited.
Yet, there is no context for any of these passages that support the attempts by Calvinists.
1 Tim 4:10 - That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Please show me ANY verse that clearly limits Christ's death for ONLY believers.
John 6:37-40
37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me.
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
Nope. Nothing about dying ONLY for some.
John 17:2 - For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.
Still nope. Nothing about dying ONLY for some.
Both texts speak of the fact that God the Father has given believers to His Son. That makes sense. But neither even addresses who He died for.
Here's my list of verses that clarifies all this:
John 1:29 - The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
John 4:42 - They said to the woman, “We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.”
2 Cor 5-
14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died.
15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
1 Tim 2-
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.
I've heard all the ways Calvinists try to spin these verses trying to make them sound like Christ's death was limited.
Yet, there is no context for any of these passages that support the attempts by Calvinists.
1 Tim 4:10 - That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
And who is it that can listen and learn spiritual things from a spiritual Father? John 10:26-28 - But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you, my sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me, and I give unto them eternal life, and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
The un-regenerant man cannot discern spiritual things, and thinks them to be foolishness (1 Cor 2:14).
The un-regenerant man cannot discern spiritual things, and thinks them to be foolishness (1 Cor 2:14).