The Plan of salvation.

[FreeGrace2]

Part 2: curse the 5 minute editing time limit:

This also harmonizes with Psalms 73 and Romans 9:13-16.

Please don't just throw out verses with a comment. Quote the verse or verses and EXPLAIN how they are relevant.

You are reading into this scripture, with your preconceived mind, that Christ died for all mankind

I take the verses at face value. They all SAY He died for everyone. Your comment highly suggests that YOU are the wone who reads verses with a ery preconceived mind. That He didn't die for everyone. But the verses say otherwise.

which the scriptures do not teach.

They all teach it.

Those that are not his sheep, are not sheep at all, they are actually referred to as goats. (matt 25:32)

Let's not do a bait and switch. The subject passage is John 10, where Jesus notes sheep that are His, and sheep that are not His.

Yet, he SAID he would die for THE sheep. So forget your goats. There aren't any in John 10. Just sheep. Meaning people.

There are saved people (His), and unsaved people (not His). And He died for THE sheep.

Again, the non-elect are not sheep, they are goats (matt 25:32)

Stay with Jon 10 and leave your goats at home.

When Jesus said He would die for THE sheep, He meant everyone. If your theology were correct, He would have said He would die for His sheep. But He didn't say that.

You need to face the facts.

FreeGrace2 said:
Your condescension is pitiful.

Sorry that you are taking this personally. All I ment by that, is that you are interpreting the scriptures wrongly, and you are stepping on my toes much more than I am yours, and I hope that I am not taking it as personal as you.

You have a reading problem if you think I take any of this personally. I was just pointing out your flaws. Don't take it personally.

We are all sick, lost, poor and unrighteous, ungodly and sinners, by our nature, the non-elect, as well as the elect.

And yet, having admitted this much, you simply REFUSE to accept the reality that all the verses I gave prove that He came for and died for all of mankind. Amazing.

1 Cor 2:14 tells us the frame of mind that the unregenerate person has, that he cannot discern the things of the Spirit, and thinks they are foolishness.

Your error is that unbelievers CAN and DO understand the gospel. I've read magazine articles by unbelievers who were able to accurately communicate the gospel yet not believe it. That alone proves your ideas about 1 Cor 2:14 wrong.

With this frame of mind, if it were true that Jesus died to only offer eternal deliverance, what are the chances that with "this frame of mind" the unregenerate person would accept an offering of a spiritual existence in a spiritual heaven?

I don't know what you mean by "external deliverance". Is this just a red herring, designed to distract from your inability to defend your position?

What would be the necessity of being born again, if he could bypass the new birth and still get to heaven?

Huh? No one can bypass regeneration and get to heaven. What motivates these really silly questions?

We know that we have to be born again in order to inter the kingdom of heaven.

Right. And we know that salvation and regeneration occur together, as Eph 2:5 shows. And 2:8 proves that both are through faith.

iow, faith precedes both.

It is as if you avoid considering all of the scriptures to give the unregenerate person the power to save himself.

I've never said such a thing because I don't believe such a thing.

It is God who regenerates people. And He regenerates ONLY those who believe in His Son. Johnb 5:24 is a start. Study it.

I hope that you do believe that God is a Spirit, and heaven is a spiritual place.

Yes, God is a Spirit, John 4:24. But heaven is a REAL place. I don't know where you get your "material", but some of it isn't from the Bible.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

And unbelievers have a conscience with which to understand good and evil, per Rom 2:14,15. So unbelievers CAN and DO understand the gospel when presented.

The unregenerate person does not have conscience that can be pricked by a spiritual God, because God has not exchanged their stony heart to a new fleshy heart in regeneration. The Gentiles did not have the oracles of God, as the Jews, but they had been born again with the new heart of flesh.

There is nothing in these verses that supports your claim. In fact, the Bible teaches that one is born again when they believe.

If they are his sheep, they are born again. All of mankind is not his sheep. Believing in spiritual things is not the cause of being born again, because you cannot believe in spiritual things until after you have been born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:22).

v.27 is a description of WHAT His sheep DO, or OUGHT to do. There is nothing about how to become one of His sheep, as you are insinuating.

The goats cannot become one of the sheep. The sheep are God's elect chosen before the foundation of the world.(Eph 1.)

Eph 2;8 - For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

The blue words here are the exact same as at the end of v.5. The green words show the MEANS of salvation; through faith.

This proves that faith PRECEDES both regeneratiaon and salvation.

I am sorry to burst your bubble of trying to make the unregenerate person their own savour, but your words in green, is not the unregenerate's faith, but it is Jesus's faith (Gal 2:16). Jesus's faithfulness in going to the cross made those that he died for just.

The fruit (singular) of the Spirit is what the Holy Spirit produces IN the believer, who is already saved.

I agree with this statement.

The Bible says that Jesus Christ took our place on the cross and paid for our sins. And those who believe in Him for it are given eternal life

I don't find any scriptures saying that if the unregenerate person believes in the fact that Jesus died for their sins that his belief is responsible for his eternal life. This idea, to me, is belittling Jesus's power to deliver eternal life to all that he died for whether they believed it or not. A person's belief has nothing to do with their eternal salvation, but the belief of a person who has been born again can deliver (save) them from things as they sojourn here on earth. Your failure to understand this, if, in fact, you do not, is that you do not understand that all of the salvation (deliverance) scriptures do not have reference to eternal deliverance. Most have reference to deliverances that the born again receive as they live here in this world.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

This verse clearly teaches that those who believe (are believers) POSSESS eternal life, WON'T be judged, and HAS crossed over from death to life.

If you don't understand this simple verse, it is you who misunderstands Scripture.

I have given you this scripture, more than once, but I guess you must have a short memory. Only God's sheep hear his voice, and those that can not hear are goats (John 10:26-29).

As just shown, regeneration and salvation occur together. And are preceded by faith. Eph 2;5,8.

This seems to be what you want to believe, but it does not make it truth. The faith mentioned in Eph 2:8 is not the unregenerate's faith, but is Jesus's faith (Gal 2:16). Jesus gets credit, man does not.

 

[Bluesproverb]

Repeating this reformed talking point will never make it true. Titus 2:11 refutes it, as does ALL the verses that plainly say that Jesus died for all.


I don't. Of course the word in the Hebrew and Greek simply means to deliver, to rescue. Context determines the deliverance/rescue is either for the soul or for some temporal danger.

Believng isn't a good work, btw. Salvation is by grace through faith. Faith isn't a work. You need to know that.

I think you miss the part where Jesus is specific about his mission.

Jesus said. Not FG2 said, not FGC said, not BP said but Jesus said, everyone the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will never cast out.[John 6]

Jesus death was a covenental sacrifice. There are 7 in the whole Bible.

If Jesus took the sins of everyone in the world upon himself and then died to save everyone, being immenent, God almighty, then besides that idea reflective of Universal Salvation, it would mean God did not need to write the names of his Elect in the Lamb's Book of Life before creating this world. Because he would predestined everyone on earth be saved. And the identity of God's Elect would not refer to a specific class of persons chosen of God. But it does in God's word.

Which, given God's preeminence, would mean he would not have to bestow his grace and give faith and salvation to those he titled his Elect in his word. Because he predetermined his death,Jesus death, on the cross saves everyone, as you said.

Therefore God having done this no one would need to believe it for it to pertain to them. Because God ordained it a fact and died to seal with his blood that covenant that saves everybody.

That's why allusions to universalism are refuted by scripture.

If Jesus took the sins of the world upon himself on the cross so to save everyone as God planned, no one would need God's grace to then have faith in their salvation.
Because God saved all people eternally himself.

And being he put the sins of the whole world under his blood shed on that altar the cross, sin would no longer have an effect or exist. Because for it to exist still would mean sin is able to overcome the blood of Christ she'd to wipe it away.
Making the sacrifice on the cross of none effect compared to the power of sin to still overcome it.

Because Jesus, as you say, saved everyone on the cross with his shed blood covering the sins of the world for everyone in the world. No need for faith from us to make that applicable to us when God ordained it to occur to save everyone by his actions.
But that's not actually the Gospel.

Jesus died for his Elect.

Those that the father gave him will come to him and he shall never lose one. Because no one can come to Jesus unless the father draws them.

That's a condition. No one can come to Jesus unless.....
If Jesus died to save everyone that condition would not exist because everyone is saved, everyone comes to salvation.

However, everyone are not saved.
All references in scripture pertains to God's Elect when we read, whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
Only those God leads to Jesus are that one.


Not even Jesus preaching God's Gospel was meant by God to be understood by everyone. As Jesus told his Disciples.

Therefore it is incongruous to say everyone is meant to be saved by Jesus sacrifice on the cross when his ministry leading to the cross wasn't intended by God's will to be understood by everyone hearing him speak it.

“The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.” Proverbs 16:4

 

[Bluesproverb]

Part 2: curse the 5 minute editing time limit:




Please don't just throw out verses with a comment. Quote the verse or verses and EXPLAIN how they are relevant.


I take the verses at face value. They all SAY He died for everyone. Your comment highly suggests that YOU are the wone who reads verses with a ery preconceived mind. That He didn't die for everyone. But the verses say otherwise.


They all teach it.


Let's not do a bait and switch. The subject passage is John 10, where Jesus notes sheep that are His, and sheep that are not His.

Yet, he SAID he would die for THE sheep. So forget your goats. There aren't any in John 10. Just sheep. Meaning people.

There are saved people (His), and unsaved people (not His). And He died for THE sheep.


Stay with Jon 10 and leave your goats at home.

When Jesus said He would die for THE sheep, He meant everyone. If your theology were correct, He would have said He would die for His sheep. But He didn't say that.

You need to face the facts.

FreeGrace2 said:
Your condescension is pitiful.

You have a reading problem if you think I take any of this personally. I was just pointing out your flaws. Don't take it personally.


And yet, having admitted this much, you simply REFUSE to accept the reality that all the verses I gave prove that He came for and died for all of mankind. Amazing.


Your error is that unbelievers CAN and DO understand the gospel. I've read magazine articles by unbelievers who were able to accurately communicate the gospel yet not believe it. That alone proves your ideas about 1 Cor 2:14 wrong.


I don't know what you mean by "external deliverance". Is this just a red herring, designed to distract from your inability to defend your position?


Huh? No one can bypass regeneration and get to heaven. What motivates these really silly questions?


Right. And we know that salvation and regeneration occur together, as Eph 2:5 shows. And 2:8 proves that both are through faith.

iow, faith precedes both.


I've never said such a thing because I don't believe such a thing.

It is God who regenerates people. And He regenerates ONLY those who believe in His Son. Johnb 5:24 is a start. Study it.


Yes, God is a Spirit, John 4:24. But heaven is a REAL place. I don't know where you get your "material", but some of it isn't from the Bible.

I agree about editing time frame. Maybe the new owner I've read talked about here will extend it to 15 minutes.
We can only hope.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I think you miss the part where Jesus is specific about his mission.

Jesus said. Not FG2 said, not FGC said, not BP said but Jesus said, everyone the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will never cast out.[John 6]

Jesus death was a covenental sacrifice. There are 7 in the whole Bible.

If Jesus took the sins of everyone in the world upon himself and then died to save everyone, being immenent, God almighty, then besides that idea reflective of Universal Salvation, it would mean God did not need to write the names of his Elect in the Lamb's Book of Life before creating this world. Because he would predestined everyone on earth be saved. And the identity of God's Elect would not refer to a specific class of persons chosen of God. But it does in God's word.

Which, given God's preeminence, would mean he would not have to bestow his grace and give faith and salvation to those he titled his Elect in his word. Because he predetermined his death,Jesus death, on the cross saves everyone, as you said.

Therefore God having done this no one would need to believe it for it to pertain to them. Because God ordained it a fact and died to seal with his blood that covenant that saves everybody.

That's why allusions to universalism are refuted by scripture.

If Jesus took the sins of the world upon himself on the cross so to save everyone as God planned, no one would need God's grace to then have faith in their salvation.
Because God saved all people eternally himself.

And being he put the sins of the whole world under his blood shed on that altar the cross, sin would no longer have an effect or exist. Because for it to exist still would mean sin is able to overcome the blood of Christ she'd to wipe it away.
Making the sacrifice on the cross of none effect compared to the power of sin to still overcome it.

Because Jesus, as you say, saved everyone on the cross with his shed blood covering the sins of the world for everyone in the world. No need for faith from us to make that applicable to us when God ordained it to occur to save everyone by his actions.
But that's not actually the Gospel.

Jesus died for his Elect.

Those that the father gave him will come to him and he shall never lose one. Because no one can come to Jesus unless the father draws them.

That's a condition. No one can come to Jesus unless.....
If Jesus died to save everyone that condition would not exist because everyone is saved, everyone comes to salvation.

However, everyone are not saved.
All references in scripture pertains to God's Elect when we read, whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.
Only those God leads to Jesus are that one.


Not even Jesus preaching God's Gospel was meant by God to be understood by everyone. As Jesus told his Disciples.

Therefore it is incongruous to say everyone is meant to be saved by Jesus sacrifice on the cross when his ministry leading to the cross wasn't intended by God's will to be understood by everyone hearing him speak it.

“The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.” Proverbs 16:4

“Not even Jesus preaching God's Gospel was meant by God to be understood by everyone. As Jesus told his Disciples.”

It’s not that we’re or they are not meant to understand it , they were meant understand it after he sent the spirit , not until

“Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:15-17, 23-26‬ ‭

the deeper understanding of what Jesus said is what the epistles are and it’s all
Meant for the church to accept understand they were teaching the same things he taught them , now with revelation

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus disciples and all believers are meant to understand the gospel , the reason the Jews mostly didn’t believe was so they would reject him and the gospel could be sent to all the world and gather all believing gentiles into the kingdom which began in Jerusalem

even many Jews who had rejected it like Paul , later converted to the gospel and belief

it was thier orior rejection of the law being the reason why they were made blind to Jesus but it wasn’t permanent later many repented and still today some convert

Paul’s goal was to stamp out this new faith the church of Christ he was going to end it in his mknd because it was not true

he had been blind to it but then later , his eyes were opened to it and he became dedicated to the message he started out to end

free men have a choice slaves do not

 

[ForestGreenCook]

And Eph 1:4 isn't about salvation, but rather, service. iow, God has chosen ALL believers for service.

When God choose them, they were not believers. He choose them before the foundation of the world and predetermined that Jesus would adopt them as his children, securing them to eternal life. Sometime after they have been born into this world by natural birth, God quickens them to a new spiritual life, then they believed, and began to serve him.

Your error is that unbelievers CAN and DO understand the gospel. I've read magazine articles by unbelievers who were able to accurately communicate the gospel yet not believe it. That alone proves your ideas about 1 Cor 2:14 wrong.

I have already told you my view on considering other men's ideas and not relying totally upon the scriptures to prove themselves.

I don't know what you mean by "external deliverance". Is this just a red herring, designed to distract from your inability to defend your position?

I believe that you must have mistakenly hit the wrong key. I didn't say anything about "external deliverance". It seems evident that you are not going to accept the fact that the Greek meaning for salvation is "a deliverance", and are still thinking that all of the salvation scriptures has reference to eternal deliverance.

Huh? No one can bypass regeneration and get to heaven. What motivates these really silly questions?

Correct me, if I am wrong, but did you not say that the unregenerate person, if he accepts the offering of Jesus on the cross that he will give him eternal life?

Right. And we know that salvation and regeneration occur together, as Eph 2:5 shows. And 2:8 proves that both are through faith.

iow, faith precedes both.

How many times are we going to have go through my explanation that the faith mentioned in Eph 2:8 is not the unregenerate's faith, but is Jesus's faith?

It is God who regenerates people. And He regenerates ONLY those who believe in His Son. Johnb 5:24 is a start. Study it.

Maybe you should study John 10:26-29 to understand exactly who it is that can believe in his Son. And, by the way, Your previous statement that all mankind are his sheep, how does that harmonize with John 10:26?

Yes, God is a Spirit, John 4:24. But heaven is a REAL place. I don't know where you get your "material", but some of it isn't from the Bible.

Unlike you, I don't go anywhere to get my material, except the bible. I will admit that I don't know a whole lot about heaven, because the scriptures do not reveal that much about heaven, but I do know that God is a spirit and that he lives there.

 

[Bluesproverb]

“Not even Jesus preaching God's Gospel was meant by God to be understood by everyone. As Jesus told his Disciples.”

It’s not that we’re or they are not meant to understand it , they were meant understand it after he sent the spirit , not until

“Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭14:15-17, 23-26‬ ‭

the deeper understanding of what Jesus said is what the epistles are and it’s all
Meant for the church to accept understand they were teaching the same things he taught them , now with revelation

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus disciples and all believers are meant to understand the gospel , the reason the Jews mostly didn’t believe was so they would reject him and the gospel could be sent to all the world and gather all believing gentiles into the kingdom which began in Jerusalem

even many Jews who had rejected it like Paul , later converted to the gospel and belief

it was thier orior rejection of the law being the reason why they were made blind to Jesus but it wasn’t permanent later many repented and still today some convert

Paul’s goal was to stamp out this new faith the church of Christ he was going to end it in his mknd because it was not true

he had been blind to it but then later , his eyes were opened to it and he became dedicated to the message he started out to end

free men have a choice slaves do not

Paul, a Pharisee, cannot be let to supersede Jesus. Nor did Paul intend that.

Jesus said not everyone was meant to understand his Gospel and come into repentance.

Our preferred order of things cannot be let to supersede Jesus teachings either.

God predestined all things according to his will for his creation. That doesn't change because we prefer it wasn't so. How can we say we believe in God if we prefer our will overcome his?

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Was hell created for the so called non-elect?

Yes, I believe the scriptures teach this. Matt 25:41

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Paul, a Pharisee, cannot be let to supersede Jesus. Nor did Paul intend that.

Jesus said not everyone was meant to understand his Gospel and come into repentance.

Our preferred order of things cannot be let to supersede Jesus teachings either.

God predestined all things according to his will for his creation. That doesn't change because we prefer it wasn't so. How can we say we believe in God if we prefer our will overcome his?

“Paul, a Pharisee, cannot be let to supersede Jesus. Nor did Paul intend that.”

um not sure where this came from , but yeah paul was a servant and witness of Jesus called to spread the gospel to everyone seems pretty clear

“Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: by whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:1, 3-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the apostles are wotnesses of the gospel it’s why we have a record of it they were carrying out the commission we still can hear them witnessing e truth of the gospel like they were appointed to do .

I’m not sure then doing what Jesus told Them to do means anyone “supersedes” Jesus nor would I ever suggest that any man supercedes Jesus they were appointed to preach his word to people with revelation from the Holy Ghost

So you have foundation

“For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:22, 24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and you have an apostle building on it

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:1-2

The law of the spirit of life

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭

you see Paul is speaking to people who believes the word of the gospel he’s helping the. Understand things Jesus was saying that’s thier job and commission

“Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his Lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: and ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:14-16, 26-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

simply this is salvstion

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

yet it’s just a summary true statement it doesn’t explain to gospel it’s just telling us a summary of how we’re saved

the apostles like Paul and Peter were sent revelation and sent to teach the things Jesus taught them ( Paul received it by revelation when he was converted ) so their letters are what’s explaining it what’s going deeper into thy concepts Jesus taught them

Jesus said thkngs like this

“That which is born of the flesh is flesh;

and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul’s doctrine is shaped from that conflict of spirit and flesh

“For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:5-6, 9-10, 12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬



“For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


That’s just a couple examples but Paul’s doctrine is all about the contrary nature of flesh and spirit , Jesus said it bery simply saying “ you have to be born of the spirit to enter the kingdom “

but the apostles were sent to witness and help understanding those things to add the depth of actually understanding this flesh and spiritual conflict

Jesus spoke the foundation of all they wrote everything they teach goes back to Christ and what he taught them first I’m not saying anyone supercedes Jesus …..I’m saying he is the head of the church , he is thy only mediator between God and man , he is our lord and everyone else were his servants and wot eases of the gospel working to spread his word through the world like he told them to do

 

[John146]

Yes, I believe the scriptures teach this. Matt 25:41

Satan and his devils, not man. God never intended any man to end up there. He’s not willing that any perish.

 

[Bluesproverb]

“Paul, a Pharisee, cannot be let to supersede Jesus. Nor did Paul intend that.”

um not sure where this came from , but yeah paul was a servant and witness of Jesus called to spread the gospel to everyone seems pretty clear

“Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: by whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:1, 3-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the apostles are wotnesses of the gospel it’s why we have a record of it they were carrying out the commission we still can hear them witnessing e truth of the gospel like they were appointed to do .

I’m not sure then doing what Jesus told Them to do means anyone “supersedes” Jesus nor would I ever suggest that any man supercedes Jesus they were appointed to preach his word to people with revelation from the Holy Ghost

So you have foundation

“For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:22, 24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and you have an apostle building on it

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:1-2

The law of the spirit of life

“It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭

you see Paul is speaking to people who believes the word of the gospel he’s helping the. Understand things Jesus was saying that’s thier job and commission

“Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his Lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: and ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:14-16, 26-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

simply this is salvstion

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

yet it’s just a summary true statement it doesn’t explain to gospel it’s just telling us a summary of how we’re saved

the apostles like Paul and Peter were sent revelation and sent to teach the things Jesus taught them ( Paul received it by revelation when he was converted ) so their letters are what’s explaining it what’s going deeper into thy concepts Jesus taught them

Jesus said thkngs like this

“That which is born of the flesh is flesh;

and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul’s doctrine is shaped from that conflict of spirit and flesh

“For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭8:5-6, 9-10, 12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬



“For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


That’s just a couple examples but Paul’s doctrine is all about the contrary nature of flesh and spirit , Jesus said it bery simply saying “ you have to be born of the spirit to enter the kingdom “

but the apostles were sent to witness and help understanding those things to add the depth of actually understanding this flesh and spiritual conflict

Jesus spoke the foundation of all they wrote everything they teach goes back to Christ and what he taught them first I’m not saying anyone supercedes Jesus …..I’m saying he is the head of the church , he is thy only mediator between God and man , he is our lord and everyone else were his servants and wot eases of the gospel working to spread his word through the world like he told them to do

It came from your prior posts where you imply Paul's perspective is allowed to interpolate that of Christ.

 

[Bluesproverb]

Satan and his devils, not man. God never intended any man to end up there. He’s not willing that any perish.

Not any of his Elect.

''The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of wrath.” Proverbs 16:4

Hell was made to hold Lucifer and his fallen angel followers.
Then it was made to receive humans.

The whole chapter is best for context. However, for the point being made, that is all things are according to God's will:

1 Peter 2:8
and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

“Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies.” Romans 8:33

“Also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.” Ephesians 1:11-12

Rather than reword God's word because we don't like what it bodes why not as we who are his Elect instead think to give thanksgiving for that? 💕✝️🕊️

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
And unbelievers have a conscience with which to understand good and evil, per Rom 2:14,15. So unbelievers CAN and DO understand the gospel when presented.

The unregenerate person does not have conscience that can be pricked by a spiritual God, because God has not exchanged their stony heart to a new fleshy heart in regeneration.

I already proved from Scripture that salvation/regeneration is preceded by faith. Eph 2:5,8. If you disagree, then please provide an explanation of what v.5 and 8 actually do teach.

The Gentiles did not have the oracles of God, as the Jews

This is what Paul taught on the subject:

Rom 2:14,15
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

When Paul mentioned Gentiles, he was talking about unbelievers.

but they had been born again with the new heart of flesh.

You seem to be intentionally misreading what Paul wrote. he was describing unbelievers.

Rom 2:24 - As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”

If they are his sheep, they are born again.

All of His sheep are believers, so yes, they are born again.

All of mankind is not his sheep.

Which is my point. In a chapter where Jesus divided sheep by noting some who were HIS and others who were NOT His, He said in the plainest of words that He would die for THE sheep.

If His plan was calvinistic and He only planned to die for those so-called elect, He would have said so clearly.

Believing in spiritual things is not the cause of being born again, because you cannot believe in spiritual things until after you have been born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:22).

The gospel isn't a "spiritual thing". It is a TRUST thing. God made promises and man is faced with a choice; to believe or not.

btw, Gal 5:22 only applies to believers who have the Holy Spirit indwelling them. In fact, only believers who are filled with the Spirit will produce the fruit of the Spirit.

The goats cannot become one of the sheep.

Do you think I ever said that?

The sheep are God's elect chosen before the foundation of the world.(Eph 1.)

In John 10, the entire human race is noted to be sheep. There are His sheep (the saved) and those NOT His sheep (the unsaved).

Again, you cannot prove that election is to salvation, regardless of how many times you may claim it is.

I am sorry to burst your bubble of trying to make the unregenerate person their own savour, but your words in green, is not the unregenerate's faith, but it is Jesus's faith (Gal 2:16).

The simple biblical FACT that man believes from his heart (Rom 10:10) doesn't make him his own savior. And yes, a man MUST believe in Jesus as Savior to be saved. That is exactly what Paul told the jailer. Do you really not understand these simple truths?

Jesus's faithfulness in going to the cross made those that he died for just.

Please prove this with verses. Which don't exist. But give it a try anyway.

In the meantime, I'll just refute you already. Rom 5:1 - Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,

And let's just put to bed your erroneous claim about "the faith of Jesus", once and for all.

Gal 2:16 - 16 know that a person is not justified by the works of the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law, because by the works of the law no one will be justified.

The first set of red words is translated by SOME translations as "faith OF Jesus". So what? Interlinears show the "in" in parentheses, which is a legitimate translation. And the second set of red words are all "in" in the Greek. So you don't have a point.

I agree with this statement.

FreeGrace2 said:
The Bible says that Jesus Christ took our place on the cross and paid for our sins. And those who believe in Him for it are given eternal life

I don't find any scriptures saying that if the unregenerate person believes in the fact that Jesus died for their sins that his belief is responsible for his eternal life.

The Bible doesn't have to say "the unregenerate person" when speaking about believing the gospel. As to the rest of your statement, allow me to flood your brain with what the Bible says about who will have salvation and eternal life.

Salvation:

Acts 4:12 "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved."

Acts 11:14 and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.'

Acts 16:31 They said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."


Rom 10:9, 10 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;

2 Tim 3:15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

1 Peter 1:9 obtaining as the outcome of your faith the salvation of your souls.

Eternal Life:

John 3:15-16 15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 6:40 "For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

John 6:47 "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord

1 Tim 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

Gal 3:22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

1 John 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

All these verses speak CLEARLY about personal faith in Jesus Christ.

This idea, to me, is belittling Jesus's power to deliver eternal life to all that he died for whether they believed it or not. A person's belief has nothing to do with their eternal salvation

Then you must not believe any of the verses I just quoted.

I have given you this scripture, more than once, but I guess you must have a short memory. Only God's sheep hear his voice, and those that can not hear are goats (John 10:26-29).

Why do you keep bringing up goats in a passagge that has NO goats? Focus. And I corrected your misunderstanding of v.27. It is NOT a conditional verse about how to become one of His sheep. No. It is a descriptive verse about WHAT His sheep DO, or ought to do.

FreeGrace2 said:
As just shown, regeneration and salvation occur together. And are preceded by faith. Eph 2;5,8.

This seems to be what you want to believe, but it does not make it truth.

You are free to reject any verse you want to reject, esp the ones that refute you. But Eph 2:5 is clear enough, so you have no excuse for your rejection of what it plainly says.

The faith mentioned in Eph 2:8 is not the unregenerate's faith, but is Jesus's faith (Gal 2:16). Jesus gets credit, man does not.

Even though man freely believes from his heart, per Rom 10:10, of course he gets no credit. All credit goes to the Savior.

You have a perverted view of man's response to the gospel message. I feel sorry for you.

The long list of verses I just shared prove that faith is personal faith. Not Jesus' faith.

 

[wolfwint]

If Christ died for only a few elect then those who have been chosen have salvation regardless of whether or not they hear the Gospel and those who haven’t been chosen are beat because there’s nothing they can do to ascertain salvation. Therefore sharing the Gospel is not only a complete and utter waste of time it’s actually a foolish directive.

No, i dont think so. You cant deny that the NT is speaking from an election. And also it clear states that everybody who believes in Jesus Christ will be safed. Both is true!

 

[wolfwint]

God, by his foreknowledge, saw that no one would seek him, that is why he choose an elect people, from among those that would not seek him, and predetermined that Jesus would die to pay for their sins, and adopt them as his children. (Eph 1:4-5) Jesus only died for those that God gave him, which were those that he had chosen (John 6:39). All of the rest of humanity will go to hell. If you would include all of the scriptures in your doctrine, and interpret them correctly, it would not be a false doctrine, in which all of those that go in the wide gate are teaching.



Your answer to my reference to Job 21:7-8; I was hoping that you could see that the wicked, according to Job, were healthy and prosperous and had no need of healing, unlike the poor and afflicted. Job 21:9 even says "neither is the rod of God upon them".

Heb 12:6-8 - For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening God dealeth with you as sons, for what son is he whom the Father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, wherefore all (that he loves) are partakers, then are ye bastards and not sons.

This also harmonizes with Psalms 73 and Romans 9:13-16.



You are reading into this scripture, with your preconceived mind, that Christ died for all mankind, which the scriptures do not teach. Those that are not his sheep, are not sheep at all, they are actually referred to as goats. (matt 25:32)




Again, the non-elect are not sheep, they are goats (matt 25:32)






Sorry that you are taking this personally. All I ment by that, is that you are interpreting the scriptures wrongly, and you are stepping on my toes much more than I am yours, and I hope that I am not taking it as personal as you.




We are all sick, lost, poor and unrighteous, ungodly and sinners, by our nature, the non-elect, as well as the elect. The elect does not leave behind their old nature just because they have been born again ((Rom 7:25)


1 Cor 2:14 tells us the frame of mind that the unregenerate person has, that he cannot discern the things of the Spirit, and thinks they are foolishness. With this frame of mind, if it were true that Jesus died to only offer eternal deliverance, what are the chances that with "this frame of mind" the unregenerate person would accept an offering of a spiritual existence in a spiritual heaven? What would be the necessity of being born again, if he could bypass the new birth and still get to heaven? We know that we have to be born again in order to inter the kingdom of heaven.

It is as if you avoid considering all of the scriptures to give the unregenerate person the power to save himself.

I hope that you do believe that God is a Spirit, and heaven is a spiritual place.

Maby it is more simple!
1. Jesus died for all ( John 3,16)
2. So the gospel is for all
3. Who believes in Jesus Christ is not going lost.
4. And is choosen from God from the beginning of the world.

People often make it more complicate then the bible. Even doctrines can irritate and dont fit the truth.

Let us not forget, nobody from us has deserved Gods grace and eternal live with Him.

Gods grace and love saves the believer.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If Jesus took the sins of the world upon himself on the cross so to save everyone as God planned, no one would need God's grace to then have faith in their salvation.

The very FACT that Jesus died in the place of mankind is GRACE. We don't deserve it nor do we earn it. That is what grace is all about.

But calvinists have managed to twist the idea of grace all out of shape.

Because God saved all people eternally himself.

Yes, He does. In fact, the Bible tells us WHO He is pleased to save. Please follow closely.

1 Cor 1:21 - For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

A person would have to try really hard to miss what Paul was teaching. God is pleased to save those who believe. Personal faith in Jesus Christ. Which my long list to the other calvinist proves.

Because Jesus, as you say, saved everyone on the cross with his shed blood covering the sins of the world for everyone in the world.

I NEVER said Jesus saved everyone. Why do you mis-state what I have said?

Jesus died for his Elect.

The prove it with Scripture. Show me any verse that limits His death to some only.

Those that the father gave him will come to him and he shall never lose one. Because no one can come to Jesus unless the father draws them.

What I find laughable about calvinists is their careful avoidance of ALL of what Jesus about those His Father has given Him.

So, let's take a trip through John 6.

37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.
39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.
40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
44 “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.

OK, these are the verses that calvinists love to quote. But they miss the KEY verse.

45 It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

There it is. The very next verse after v.44. v.45 explains WHO will come to Jesus, because Jesus said so.

It i those who have listened and learned from the Father. Nothing about being regenerated in order to come to Him.

That's a condition. No one can come to Jesus unless.....

Sure. v.45 tells us plainly.

If Jesus died to save everyone that condition would not exist because everyone is saved, everyone comes to salvation.

This is a very common error among calvinists. They assume if Jesus died for someone, that person is saved. Nope. You just don't really understand Jesus' sacrifice. He took mankind's sins so that God the Father could offer IN GRACE salvation to mankind. Titus 2:11 explains it well.

However, everyone are not saved.

Correct!

All references in scripture pertains to God's Elect when we read, whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life.

This is just an opinion. Prove it with verses that plainly say this.

Only those God leads to Jesus are that one.

And John 6:45 tells us who they are. The ones who have listened and learned from the Father will come to Jesus.

Therefore it is incongruous to say everyone is meant to be saved by Jesus sacrifice on the cross when his ministry leading to the cross wasn't intended by God's will to be understood by everyone hearing him speak it.

Then you don't know the Bible. Or very well, anyway.

1 Tim 2-
3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,
4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

Couldn't be any more clear as to who God wangts to be saved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

John146 said:
Was hell created for the so called non-elect?

Yes, I believe the scriptures teach this. Matt 25:41

Please read it again. Before you post.

 

[Bluesproverb]

FreeGrace2 said:
And unbelievers have a conscience with which to understand good and evil, per Rom 2:14,15. So unbelievers CAN and DO understand the gospel when presented.

Only those whom God calls can respond.
Natural man is defined in Jude 1.

'' The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.'' 1 Corinthians 2:14

1 Corinthians 2:12 "Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit which is from God, that we might understand the gifts bestowed on us by God."

 

[Bluesproverb]

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God isn't a Calvinist. Nor am I. 😊🕊️✝️💕

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

The Plan of salvation was instituted immediately after the fall of man.

Wrong!! The "Plan of Salvation" was in effect before the creation.

Adam and Eve broke the 10 commandments

There WERE NO "10 commandments" - only ONE: DON'T EAT OF THAT TREE

For this case Elohim had to seek a way of purging out sin from mankind;

Wrong again, the plan of salvation was already in place, and finally manifested 4000 years later in Jesus' perfect SIN OFFERING on Calvary.

By observing Lev 23 feasts---The Holly Convocations,, such Christians recieves the atoning, forgiveness, blessings and the seal of Elohim ,Ezek 20:20. Whoever is of Abraham he/she does the works of Abraham-Gen 26:4,5 and becomes heir of the promise according to Gal 3:29. Blessings

Wrong a third time, You're preaching "Salvation by WORKS", and Eph 2:8,9 teaches exactly the OPPOSITE - i.e. Being Born Again is by FAITH, which is gifted to the person by GOD.