The Post Tribulation Rapture

[BenjaminN]

It was not my intent to "bully" Truth7t7.

It is never my intent to "bully" anyone.

I regret and apologize if anything I post is ever taken that way.

Then maybe a mis observation, my apologies. Through collaboration, and testing of God's word as the only unfailing truth, we will prevail in brotherly love, I hope.

 

[Blain]

All our words directed to others point back to ourselves as well.

"I said to you before there is a clear distinction in the bible in regards to the old covanent new covanent who he was speaking to at that time":

The new covenant is written in the blood of Yeshua ha'Mashiach, it is with Israel and Judah, Israel is Ephraim believing in Yeshua scattered among the Gentiles, Judah is the Jews still partially hardened living currently in Zion as a nation without Yeshua ha'Mashiach and without their brother Israel / Ephraim. So Judah needs to come to the Messiah, Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach, and Ephraim / Israel among the Gentiles ( even from beyond the rivers of Cush / Ethiopia / sub-Saharan Africa ), already believing in the Messiah, Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach, needs to come to Zion to rejoin their brother Judah, that will not happen until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in, ie. the gospel of the Kingdom has reached the whole of the world.


Zechariah 12 (ESV)

10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.


Zephaniah 3 (ESV)

1 Woe to her who is rebellious and defiled, the oppressing city! 2 She listens to no voice; she accepts no correction. She does not trust in the Lord; she does not draw near to her God. 9 "For at that time I will change the speech of the peoples to a pure speech, that all of them may call upon the name of the Lord and serve him with one accord. 10 From beyond the rivers of Cush my worshipers, the daughter of my dispersed ones, shall bring my offering. 11 "On that day you shall not be put to shame because of the deeds by which you have rebelled against me; for then I will remove from your midst your proudly exultant ones, and you shall no longer be haughty in my holy mountain. 12 But I will leave in your midst a people humble and lowly. They shall seek refuge in the name of the Lord, 13 those who are left in Israel; they shall do no injustice and speak no lies, nor shall there be found in their mouth a deceitful tongue. For they shall graze and lie down, and none shall make them afraid." 14 Sing aloud, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel! Rejoice and exult with all your heart, O daughter of Jerusalem!


Romans 11 (ESV)

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; 27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."


Hebrews 8 (ESV)

8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more." (COVENANT WRITTEN IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB THAT WAS SLAIN) 13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.


Jeremiah 31 (ESV)

31 "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." (COVENANT WRITTEN IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB THAT WAS SLAIN) 35 Thus says the Lord, who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the Lord of hosts is his name: 36 "If this fixed order departs from before me, declares the Lord, then shall the offspring of Israel cease from being a nation before me forever." 37 Thus says the Lord: "If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth below can be explored, then I will cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done, declares the Lord."

When I was speaking to him about the old and new covenant it was in regards to the distinct dealing and speaking to who was being spoken at that particular time however I am very impressed with your understanding of the Jewish people as well as the gentiles even I wasn't aware of this depth of detail

Honestly we may disagree on the prophetic timeline but I am very impressed all the same

 

[BenjaminN]

You might be surprised to discover just how many 'hoops' people would rather jump through than to simply acknowledge a simple truth found in a verse of scripture - rearrange their whole belief system if necessary so that they can "avoid" that simple truth in that verse of scripture.

(And, this is not "aimed" at Truth7t7.)

Pre-tribbers in particular are always asking post-tribbers:

"Why do you always mention Matthew 24:29? Why do you always bring up that verse?"

Well - the answer lies in the fact that - if you cannot acknowledge the simple truth about that verse, you may as well "hang-it-up" on End Times Prophecy - because, there is no way you are going to understand "the deeper things" if you cannot understand the simple things - such as is illustrated in that verse.

If a person cannot acknowledge that simple truth in that verse, they "don't stand a chance" in understanding what the Bible actually says about the End Times Scenario.

A lot more than most people realize occurs "after the tribulation"...

Pre-tribbers in particular think that everything 'End Times' occurs during the 'tribulation'.

The Bible tells us otherwise.

Anyone who can honestly acknowledge the simple truth in that verse --- has a much better opportunity for understanding the "bigger picture" of End Times prophecy.

I am asking the question:

"Who is willing to state that they understand the simple truth in that verse of scripture."

(And stand on it, for the truth that it is.)

Matthew 24:29 and only Mathew 24:29 states that the sun and moon will darken and stars will fall from heaven, and heavens powers will be shaken, after the great tribulation.

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Mathew 24:30 says then will be the coming of the Son of Man

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Mathew 24:40 says then one will be raptured and one will be left behind

Now as a "great tribulation -> darkening of the sun and moon and falling of stars -> return of the Son of God accompanying the rapture of the elect" believer, I need to ask you as a PreTrib believer, why you want to know if we understand Mathew 24:29 as it is grammatically stated, as it states: "great tribulation -> darkening of the sun and moon and falling of stars"?

 

[Corban]

There is no such thing as Christian in the whole bible. It is all about different views of Judaism. Paul was called to be from the Nazarene 'sect' of Judaism (the same Judaic 'sect' of Jesus / Yeshua and his disciples), which had Messianic views, hence Messianic Judaism of the 'sect' of the Nazarenes ( as opposed to the Judaic 'parties' of the Pharisees and Sadducees ).


Acts 24 (ESV)

1 And after five days the high priest Ananias came down with some elders and a spokesman, one Tertullus. They laid before the governor their case against Paul. 2 And when he had been summoned, Tertullus began to accuse him, saying: "Since through you we enjoy much peace, and since by your foresight, most excellent Felix, reforms are being made for this nation, 3 in every way and everywhere we accept this with all gratitude. 4 But, to detain you no further, I beg you in your kindness to hear us briefly. 5 For we have found this man a plague, one who stirs up riots among all the Jews throughout the world and is a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes.

I'll grant you that the term Christian only appears once in the Bible. But you dismissed my argument about the various ORIGINS. I'm happy though. An argument dismissed and not countered is proof that remains.

But go well brother and God bless.

 

[BenjaminN]

No - I think you have misunderstood what I said.


Did 'the end' come at the end of verse 14 - and then - everything in all of the verses after that - occur after 'the end'???

Did the full complete 'the end' come-and-go before the tribulation? (verse 21)

I am saying:

~ verse 29 - talks about everything that occurs between the 'tribulation' and verse 30 (please notice the 'And then' in verse 30)

~ verse 30 - talks about the Second Coming of Christ (when He "shows up")

~ verse 31 - talks about the Rapture

Verses 40-41 are specifically associated with the Rapture; however, it does not mean that no verse before it refers to the Rapture - as if the verses describe everything in strict chronological order. They do not.

In many places in the Bible, the text makes mention of something - and then - afterward - "re-visits" it again to give more detail.

~

The prophecy of the Olivet Discourse is NOT in chronological order - verse-by-verse.

Please see the small chart at the bottom of the page (below the large chart):

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Olivet_Discourse.html

Agreed, Matthew 24:31-51 all deals with matters pertaining to the rapture, which is the last, last, last event in Mathew 24.

I like simplicity, if you want to complicate matters, there must be a reason. What's your reason for not wanting to keep to Matthew 24's simple chronological order, which the Lord gave to simple folks, and I consider myself one of them.

 

[Corban]

So without the parenthesis you object to, please read literal the house of Ephraim/Israel and house of Judah, now one renewed Israel under Israel's King from Judah, Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach, with one new Messianic ( Christian in the Greek ) Judaic covenant. Please note that these texts ONLY apply to Jews / Judah still in their partial hardening, AND to those from Ephraim scattered among the Gentiles, partially without knowledge of their identity, but out of their partial hardening:

Let the scriptures talk to you if you consider yourself to be of Judah's King, Messiah's ( or Christ's in the Greek ) Gentile Ephraim, and you love God's laws - his 613 mitzvot - written on our hearts and minds with the blood of our Judah King, Jesus' / Yeshua's under his new covenant. If you do not love them, you are of the Gentiles, that are not of the Ephraim Gentiles, and its ok, Acts 15:19-20 applies to you, and your nation statehood identity. The King of Judah, Messiah's ( or Christ's in the Greek ) Gentile Ephraim are still physically among the Gentiles, split from our still parially hardened unbelieving brother Judah (although they are becoming less hardened day-by-day, see OneForIsrael until Zechariah 12:10 will become to its fulness ), scattered physically, but spiritually already gathered from among the Gentiles, by our King from Judah, Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Mashiach, otherwise it will not talk to you:


Acts 15 (ESV)

19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.


2 Corinthians 5 (ESV)


17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.


Romans 11 (ESV)

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; 27 "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins."


Hebrews 8 (ESV)

8 For he finds fault with them when he says: "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 9 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 11 And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more." 13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.



Jeremiah 31 (ESV)

31 "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." 35 Thus says the Lord, who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar— the Lord of hosts is his name: 36 "If this fixed order departs from before me, declares the Lord, then shall the offspring of Israel cease from being a nation before me forever."


When it comes into fruition, Judah will embrace Ephraim among the Gentiles, and allow Ephraim to make Aliyah, because they would also believe in Jesus Christ / Yeshua ha'Maschiach, as the Judah King of Israel:

Zechariah 12 (ESV)

10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

Thank you for replying. Your format is difficult for me. You also do not enter into debate on my points. This is your right, so no complaints from me. But it sure stops discussion.

Go well brother (or maybe not "brother" if you are a son of Jacob).

 

[BenjaminN]

When I was speaking to him about the old and new covenant it was in regards to the distinct dealing and speaking to who was being spoken at that particular time however I am very impressed with your understanding of the Jewish people as well as the gentiles even I wasn't aware of this depth of detail

Honestly we may disagree on the prophetic timeline but I am very impressed all the same

All glory to God, I could not have read the whole Bible and come up with it - it would have taken me a lifetime. But through random opening from personal Bible study, the puzzle started to fit - unless it is torn to pieces if I might have misinterpreted, and someone can show scripturally that the interpretation was not revealed by God.

 

[Corban]

Jeremiah 31:31-33. It is "IN THAT DAY"! What day? It actually reads "Behold, the days are coming" - When the new covenant of sins being forgiven came into effect, at the resurrection of Judah King Yeshua ha'Mashiach, formerly identityless Ephraim among the Gentiles acknowledge Him, Judah not yet, until the time of the Gentiles has been fulfilled, ie. the Gospel of the Kingdom of Yeshua ha'Mashiach has reached the whole world - whereto Ephraim was scattered 2700+ years ago. Then when all of formerly identityless Ephraim heard the good news, Judah will accept Judah King Yeshua ha'Maschiach, and be reunited under Him with their Torah loving, Messiah believing brother, Ephraim scattered among the Gentiles.


Jeremiah 31 (ESV)

31 "Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the Lord. 33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more."

Your reply is read and noted. The New Covenant is made with Israel and with Judah. "THEIR FATHERS" are the offspring of twelve men born to Jacob. My FATHER is God (Jn.1:12-13). We are two totally different KINDS. I respect Israel and declare them to be God's People IN CHASTISEMENT. I believe in their restoration as a NATION among all nations. But I am a member of the New Man - made out of TWAIN - TWO PEOPLES with the Law (and thus the Covenant of Law) abolished (Eph.2:15). Israel remain Israel even into eternity. I am a stone in the Wall of New Jerusalem. Israel remian 12 Tribes and are twelve Gates to the City. There is no mixing of the two - ever.

 

[Blain]

All glory to God, I could not have read the whole Bible and come up with it - it would have taken me a lifetime. But through random opening from personal Bible study, the puzzle started to fit - unless it is torn to pieces if I might have misinterpreted, and someone can show scripturally that the interpretation was not revealed by God.

Yes a puzzle is the perfect way to describe to it, we all who study the bible love God more than life itself and are his each hold a piece to the puzzle no one person is ever given all the pieces this is often used as discord in debates but that wasn't the purpose of giving each believe a piece the other may not have it was to bring us together.

When it comes to bible prophecy however even with the spirit this is the meat of all meats and so it is much more difficult to chew and digest even for veteran believers who have studied for years but this also is why I love to study it bible prophecy is a fascinating subject and the depth of layers it has in it is amazing.

But it really is no surprise that there are contriding views and understanding when it comes to the end times but as long as people can still discuss things in brotherly love and respect then that is what is important there is always many factors to a persons understandiing view perspective insight ect. so we have to give people room for error sometimes

 

[GaryA]

Agreed, Matthew 24:31-51 all deals with matters pertaining to the rapture, which is the last, last, last event in Mathew 24.

I like simplicity, if you want to complicate matters, there must be a reason. What's your reason for not wanting to keep to Matthew 24's simple chronological order, which the Lord gave to simple folks, and I consider myself one of them.

What is the phrase 'But before all these' in Luke 21:12 telling you - with regard to the order of events described in the Olivet Discourse?

 

[BenjaminN]

Thank you for replying. Your format is difficult for me. You also do not enter into debate on my points. This is your right, so no complaints from me. But it sure stops discussion.

Go well brother (or maybe not "brother" if you are a son of Jacob).

Sorry, what do you mean - can sons of Jacob not be part of the Body of Messiah, in accordance with your theology? Or do you mean you are not part of the Body of Messiah?

Jews about Yeshua ha'Mashiach / Jesus the Messiah: "Why nobody told us before?"

OneForIsrael

 

[GaryA]

I need to ask you as a PreTrib believer

Are you saying you are pre-trib or are you thinking that I am pre-trib?

I am certainly not pre-trib.

I grew up learning "the pre-trib way" - but, in my late teens - I [realized the truth and] "converted" to post-trib.

 

[BenjaminN]

Yes a puzzle is the perfect way to describe to it, we all who study the bible love God more than life itself and are his each hold a piece to the puzzle no one person is ever given all the pieces this is often used as discord in debates but that wasn't the purpose of giving each believe a piece the other may not have it was to bring us together.

When it comes to bible prophecy however even with the spirit this is the meat of all meats and so it is much more difficult to chew and digest even for veteran believers who have studied for years but this also is why I love to study it bible prophecy is a fascinating subject and the depth of layers it has in it is amazing.

But it really is no surprise that there are contriding views and understanding when it comes to the end times but as long as people can still discuss things in brotherly love and respect then that is what is important there is always many factors to a persons understandiing view perspective insight ect. so we have to give people room for error sometimes

I absolutely agree, I have learned so, so much from this forum, more in the last month than in my lifetime.

 

[GaryA]

Matthew 24:29 and only Mathew 24:29 states that the sun and moon will darken and stars will fall from heaven, and heavens powers will be shaken, after the great tribulation.

As does Mark 13:24...

But --- look at all of the other places where these things are described. What 'collective' thing can you derive from them?

All of them are lined up in columns here:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html

 

[BenjaminN]

What is the phrase 'But before all these' in Luke 21:12 telling you - with regard to the order of events described in the Olivet Discourse?

Before Herod's temple was destroyed in 70AC Rome's rise against the Jewish nation of the time, Jesus' / Yeshua's twelve disciples were persecuted.

Luke 21 (ESV)

6 "As for these things that you see, the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down." 7 And they asked him, "Teacher, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?" 8 And he said, "See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, 'I am he!' and, 'The time is at hand!' Do not go after them. 9 And when you hear of wars and tumults, do not be terrified, for these things must first take place, but the end will not be at once." 10 Then he said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. 12 But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake.

 

[BenjaminN]

Are you saying you are pre-trib or are you thinking that I am pre-trib?

I am certainly not pre-trib.

I grew up learning "the pre-trib way" - but, in my late teens - I [realized the truth and] "converted" to post-trib.

I believe the rapture is post of ( after, or following ) the tribulation. Is that a PostTrib rapture believe, I believe? Is that what you believe?

 

[GaryA]

Now as a "great tribulation -> darkening of the sun and moon and falling of stars -> return of the Son of God accompanying the rapture of the elect" believer, I need to ask you as a PreTrib believer, why you want to know if we understand Mathew 24:29 as it is grammatically stated, as it states: "great tribulation -> darkening of the sun and moon and falling of stars"?

Do you realize that there is a 3.5-year span of time between the 'start' of Matthew 24:29 and the 'start' of Matthew 24:30 - during which, all of the things described in the last part of verse 29 occur?

Do you realize that it is not the Second Coming of Christ that "ends" the 'tribulation'? But rather, that it is the Two Witnesses "showing up on the scene" that coincide with the "end" of the 'tribulation'?

Do you realize that the Second Coming of Christ does not occur until after the Two Witnesses are killed and raised 3 days later?

 

[GaryA]

Before Herod's temple was destroyed in 70AC Rome's rise against the Jewish nation of the time, Jesus' / Yeshua's twelve disciples were persecuted.

Luke 21 (ESV)

6 "As for these things that you see, the days will come when there will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down." 7 And they asked him, "Teacher, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?" 8 And he said, "See that you are not led astray. For many will come in my name, saying, 'I am he!' and, 'The time is at hand!' Do not go after them. 9 And when you hear of wars and tumults, do not be terrified, for these things must first take place, but the end will not be at once." 10 Then he said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11 There will be great earthquakes, and in various places famines and pestilences. And there will be terrors and great signs from heaven. 12 But before all this they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons, and you will be brought before kings and governors for my name's sake.

What is the phrase 'But before all these' in Luke 21:12 telling you - with regard to the order of events described in the Olivet Discourse?

Do you think that this just might "break" the whole verses-are-in-strict-chronological-order idea?

 

[GaryA]

I believe the rapture is post of ( after, or following ) the tribulation.

The fact that you understand this "puts you way ahead of many" in having a good foundation for study of the End Times Scenario.

 

[BenjaminN]

As does Mark 13:24...

But --- look at all of the other places where these things are described. What 'collective' thing can you derive from them?

All of them are lined up in columns here:

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Order_Of_Events.html

From a glance, reading your very helpful table from left to right, I agree with the following order of events:

Abomination Of Desolation -> Great Tribulation -> Trumpets -> Heaven Opened -> JESUS next and final return -> Trumpet -> Resurrection & Rapture -> Millenial Kingdom with Christ / Messiah on earth -> Armageddon / Gog and Magog -> New heaven and new earth