The Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The Blessed Hope of the Saints

[TheDivineWatermark]

There is only one body of Christ. The church, which is His Body includes all races who believe in the spiritual virtues of love, truth, and justice, that Christ believes in.

[Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence--if you're speaking of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" as I was)--ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"]

The Lord does not come back a second time for a group of Jews who repent after seeing Him up in the clouds earlier.

They WON'T be seeing Him in the clouds that day (just like Paul did not see Him, but saw "[SUDDENLY]... shined round about him a LIGHT FROM HEAVEN"), and just like NO ONE "saw" Jesus ascend the FIRST time ON FIRSTFRUIT (His Resurrection Day), but only "saw" Him (VISIBLY) ascend some "40 DAYS" later in Acts 1 (which, as they said, is how He will "so come in like manner as ye have SEEN Him 'traveling' into Heaven"--Two DISTINCT "ascensions" at two DISTINCT points in time, separated by "FORTY DAYS")

When the whole world see the Lord coming on the clouds of heaven and realize they messed up and now have no further hope, this includes any and all Jews who have participated in the beasts system.

Scripture reference, please?

I am NOT saying Jews who will REJECT Christ (and embrace the beast system) are who enter the MK age, to be clear!!

[I mean, a brief one, so I can get your gist, here... for I already pointed out the "TRIBE/TRIBES" study (maybe a different thread??)]

What do you think, will there be some Jews who just sit on the sidelines for 3.5 years, not accepting the beasts mark, while at the same time not believing in the spiritual virtues of love, truth, and justice, which to believe in is to be a member of Christ's body?

huh?

No... they will be the ones delivering the message of Matt24:14/Matt26:13 (in/during/within the trib yrs), and who are also [ID'd as] "the least of these My brethren" [25:40,45] who are NOT the ones BEING "judged/separated" in this passage, but whom the Gentiles/nations will have either AIDED [/blessed] and will then themselves be called "ye BLESSED" by our Lord, OR will NOT have AIDED [/blessed] and thus will be called "ye CURSED" by our Lord" (that is, "the nations/Gentiles" will be called one or the other of these, depending...)

All on earth, including the Jews, will either believe in the spiritual virtues of Christ, or they will not believe in these virtues, and will believe instead in the delusion of the carnal indulgences that will be the beast's system.

So...??

The only ones who will sit on the sidelines during the beast's hedonistic world order will be those who believe in the spiritual virtues of Christ, while all who do not believe in the spiritual virtues of Christ, will participate and worship the beast. No reprieve for any of the latter, including Jews.

Who's talking about ANYONE being lazy and sitting around in a lackadaisical stupor, here? Exactly no one has suggesting anything REMOTELY NEAR to this. This is all a figment of your imagination that you *THINK* is the "pre-trib perspective" on this. Rude! lol

It is not.


"Know ye not that WE SHALL JUDGE ANGELS?" (oh, we'll be busy alright, just as will be the "believing remnant of Jews/Israel" who will be on the earth, during that same time-period!)

 

[luigi]

[Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence--if you're speaking of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" as I was)--ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"]



They WON'T be seeing Him in the clouds that day (just like Paul did not see Him, but saw "[SUDDENLY]... shined round about him a LIGHT FROM HEAVEN"), and just like NO ONE "saw" Jesus ascend the FIRST time ON FIRSTFRUIT (His Resurrection Day), but only "saw" Him (VISIBLY) ascend some "40 DAYS" later in Acts 1 (which, as they said, is how He will "so come in like manner as ye have SEEN Him 'traveling' into Heaven"--Two DISTINCT "ascensions" at two DISTINCT points in time, separated by "FORTY DAYS")



Scripture reference, please?

I am NOT saying Jews who will REJECT Christ (and embrace the beast system) are who enter the MK age, to be clear!!

[I mean, a brief one, so I can get your gist, here... for I already pointed out the "TRIBE/TRIBES" study (maybe a different thread??)]



huh?

No... they will be the ones delivering the message of Matt24:14/Matt26:13 (in/during/within the trib yrs), and who are also [ID'd as] "the least of these My brethren" [25:40,45] who are NOT the ones BEING "judged/separated" in this passage, but whom the Gentiles/nations will have either AIDED [/blessed] and will then themselves be called "ye BLESSED" by our Lord, OR will NOT have AIDED [/blessed] and thus will be called "ye CURSED" by our Lord" (that is, "the nations/Gentiles" will be called one or the other of these, depending...)



So...??



Who's talking about ANYONE being lazy and sitting around in a lackadaisical stupor, here? Exactly no one has suggesting anything REMOTELY NEAR to this. This is all a figment of your imagination that you *THINK* is the "pre-trib perspective" on this. Rude! lol

It is not.


"Know ye not that WE SHALL JUDGE ANGELS?" (oh, we'll be busy alright, just as will be the "believing remnant of Jews/Israel" who will be on the earth, during that same time-period!)

You will either participate in the orgyfest that will be the beast's system, which will be comparable to those as in the days of Noah, and those as in the days of Lot, or you will not participate in the beast's hedonistic world order, because you believe otherwise. There will be no one sitting on the side lines thinking it over for 3.5 years.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ To be clear (on that last section I wrote, lol)

the word used in both 1Th5:2-3 AND Lk21:36 (G1628 - ekphygōsin / ekphygein / ekpheugo - FLEE OUT OF), BOTH TIMES refer to THOSE who will find themselves IN the trib (the one, referring to the UNBELIEVERS/WICKED; the other, to those who WILL HEED God's word at/in/during that time!)... These are NOT "RAPTURE" verses... (so do not in any way pertain to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY").



["having been INVITED to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER of the Lamb" is the INVITATION that WILL GO OUT *in/during/within* THE TRIB YRS... it pertains to "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (i.e. the EARTHLY MK age), NOT "the MARRIAGE" itself, which pertains to "the Bride/Wife [SINGULAR]," whereas the OTHER pertains to the "GUESTS [PLURAL]"]

 

[luigi]

To be clear (on that last section I wrote, lol)

the word used in both 1Th5:2-3 AND Lk21:36 (G1628 - ekphygōsin / ekphygein / ekpheugo - FLEE OUT OF), BOTH TIMES refer to THOSE who will find themselves IN the trib (the one, referring to the UNBELIEVERS/WICKED; the other, to those who WILL HEED God's word at/in/during that time!)... These are NOT "RAPTURE" verses... (so do not in any way pertain to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY")

Through your definition that those who find themselves in the trib representing unbelievers/wicked; the many Christians throughout the world who today find themselves in persecutions/tribulation, including their being killed, would represent wicked unbelievers. I guess this is why when things continue to get difficult throughout the world as the day of the Lord progresses, with His shaking of both the earth and heaven, in which those things made (dogmas) that can be shaken out, are shaken out; the shaken out will then hate those whose faith is the Word, and cannot be shaken out.

Matthew 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. 22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Through your definition that those who find themselves in the trib representing unbelievers/wicked;

You have not read what I wrote, correctly... Please try to re-read, to ascertain what I've actually said (unless I am misunderstanding your sentence here... care to clarify??)

For the former (I mentioned), these are the ones TO WHOM "God WILL SEND *TO THEM* GREAT DELUSION, that they should believe THE LIE/the FALSE/the pseudei" (DURING those trib yrs, that they will enter... and NOT "FLEE OUT OF [G1628]")

But ALSO who will enter those same trib years, are ppl who are simply not believers before that time period commences to unfold upon the earth, but WHO WILL *HEED HIS WORD* and come to faith (all this, FOLLOWING "our Rapture"), thus being enabled TO "FLEE OUT OF [G1628]" each and every thing that will come to pass on the earth (DURING that time period!)

the many Christians throughout the world who today find themselves in persecutions/tribulation, including their being killed, would represent wicked unbelievers.

It makes no sense to me why you would EVER *CONFLATE* believers/Christians with "wicked unbelievers"... somehow you have missed a number of my points (in this thread or another where we've interacted).

Paul, in 2Th1 & 2, is CONTRASTING the TWO DISTINCT (OPPOSITE) beliefs ppl will come to when they are IN the trib yrs.

We know this, because EVERYWHERE in Scripture where the phrases "the DOTL" and "IN THAT DAY" are used in the same contexts, they are speaking of the SAME TIME PERIOD as each other. And this is exactly how Paul is using these 2 phrases in THIS 2Th1&2 CONTEXT.

I guess this is why when things continue to get difficult throughout the world as the day of the Lord progresses, with His shaking of both the earth and heaven, in which those things made (dogmas) that can be shaken out, are shaken out; the shaken out will then hate those whose faith is the Word, and cannot be shaken out.
Matthew 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. 22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

There's no denying this will indeed take place within those future trib years (the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period... that the Spirit wrote through Paul's pen that "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will NOT be on the earth to experience! ALL of the "LIGHTBULBS" will have been TAKEN OUT [/UP!!] prior to its commencing to unfold upon the earth [which is what the "in the twinkling of an eye" phrase refers to... "when the sun is 8-degrees below the horizon, at sundown [/dark]!"])

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ ... and what follows THAT is... "the LAMPS LIT" thing (having to do with the "watches OF THE NIGHT")--We ("the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY") will not be present on the earth, for that!!



[Gen46:2, for one small example...]

 

[luigi]

You have not read what I wrote, correctly... Please try to re-read, to ascertain what I've actually said (unless I am misunderstanding your sentence here... care to clarify??)

I did read your posts. You bring up numerous different topics in one post, and you primarily take a word in scripture, and try to make it mean what you want it to mean. This is often in error, as you did by claiming the Lord commencing to reign in Revelation 11:15 was future tense, when I showed it was present tense following the two witnesses testimony. I will therefore stick to the Word rather than spin, so that I will not be among those that are self made dogmas, who shall be shaken out when things get bad,---even here in the U.S..
If you want me to reply to your assertions, then try to reply with one or two claims about maybe one or two topics, which are corroborated with the Word, otherwise we will have a jumble of chaos to rummage through.
If you want me to reply to the issue about the great delusion people will choose over the truth in 2 Thessalonians, then make that the subject, and don't jump from one subject to another.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I did read your posts. You bring up numerous different topics in one post, and you primarily take a word in scripture, and try to make it mean what you want it to mean. This is often in error, as you did by claiming the Lord commencing to reign in Revelation 11:15 was future tense, when I showed it was present tense following the two witnesses testimony. I will therefore stick to the Word rather than spin,

The only part of Rev11:15 I said was "future tense" is the part which it SHOWS to be "future tense," and that is only in the phrase "He SHALL REIGN [FUTURE indicative active]" (forever and ever!) - Revelation 11:15 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com)

so that I will not be among those that are self made dogmas, who shall be shaken out when things get bad,---even here in the U.S..

Well, I'm not planning to change the word of God in order to "fit" with what YOU think it says, or would like it to say.

If you want me to reply to your assertions, then try to reply with one or two claims about maybe one or two topics, which are corroborated with the Word, otherwise we will have a jumble of chaos to rummage through.
If you want me to reply to the issue about the great delusion people will choose over the truth in 2 Thessalonians, then make that the subject, and don't jump from one subject to another.

It all pertained to the "FLEE OUT OF [G1628]" word (re: those [two distinct groups IN the trib]) I was speaking of specifically (thus, ONE ISSUE ); yet you went off on some other tangent... Whatever.

Nice talkin with you again. Good night.

 

[Absolutely]

The Lord is impartial on those who believe in/on Him, and does not favor one group over another. There is only one body in Christ.
If the Lord were to come and pick up a first group, and depart, then why would the whole world mourn when they see the Lord coming in the clouds, if there is still time to repent for a supposed second chance, upon a second return?

The 144k are jews. But messianic,or born again.
Jacob's trouble is FOR ISRAEL.
IOW the time of the gentiles closes and Jacobs/Israel's trouble starts.

The rapture is the gathering of the bride,which only pretrib fits.

Think about it.
Only pretrib teachers touch on the heart of the matter

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

EDIT to correct Post #205 at bottom... SHOULD READ (instead):

[which is what the "in the twinkling of an eye" phrase refers to... "the precise moment when one day turns into the next, when the sun is 8-degrees below the horizon, at sundown [/dark]!"--This is when "the DOTL" TIME-PERIOD *ARRIVES* (aka SEAL #1, aka "the man of sin BE REVEALED"... "IN HIS TIME" [the "IN THE NIGHT/DARK/DARKNESS" time-period, the 7-trib-yrs/70th-Wk, its START/BEGINNING-point])])

 

[luigi]

The only part of Rev11:15 I said was "future tense" is the part which it SHOWS to be "future tense," and that is only in the phrase "He SHALL REIGN [FUTURE indicative active]" (forever and ever!) - Revelation 11:15 Greek Text Analysis (biblehub.com)

That's great, but you stopped there at saying future tense, thereby implying that it was still future to the conclusion of the two witnesses testimony.

Well, I'm not planning to change the word of God in order to "fit" with what YOU think it says, or would like it to say.

Many here do just that, spinning the meaning of what is in scriptures so that it fits in with their dogmas. These are the man made faiths, which when they are shaken, shall be shaken out. If your perspectives of certain scriptures do not line up with other scriptures, then you need to be looking to see what's wrong.

It all pertained to the "FLEE OUT OF [G1628]" word (re: those [two distinct groups IN the trib]) I was speaking of specifically (thus, ONE ISSUE ); yet you went off on some other tangent... Whatever.

Nice talkin with you again. Good night.

Excuse me, but I am confused about what point you are trying to make about fleeing out, to whom it pertains, and all other claims you are trying to make about two distinct groups.

 

[luigi]

The 144k are jews. But messianic,or born again.
Jacob's trouble is FOR ISRAEL.
IOW the time of the gentiles closes and Jacobs/Israel's trouble starts.

The rapture is the gathering of the bride,which only pretrib fits.

Think about it.
Only pretrib teachers touch on the heart of the matter

Yes the 144,000 are Jews, and more specifically, virgins, 12,000 of whom from each of the twelve tribes.
Are they carnal race Jews, of which there is not a single Jew today whose family heritage has not been assimilated into the whole of Judaism? And if there were pure blood tribe individuals, would there be 144,000 virgins?
Don't get me wrong, I totally agree that there are those Jews currently in the land of Israel who do believe in love, truth, and justice, which are the spiritual virtues comprising faith in the Lord, whom the Lord will protect through the first half of the week (Daniel 9:26), in which the land of Israel will be desolated. Not the least one of these having faith in the Lord shall fall to the ground (Amos 9:9), while those who do not believe in the Lord, and therefore believe in unjust oppression for their carnal selves, are they who shall fall (Micha 2:1-5).

Amos 9:9 For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.

Amos 2:1 Woe to them that devise iniquity, and work evil upon their beds! when the morning is light, they practise it, because it is in the power of their hand. 2 And they covet fields, and take them by violence; and houses, and take them away: so they oppress a man and his house, even a man and his heritage. 3 Therefore thus saith the Lord; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil, from which ye shall not remove your necks; neither shall ye go haughtily: for this time is evil. 4 In that day shall one take up a parable against you, and lament with a doleful lamentation, and say, We be utterly spoiled: he hath changed the portion of my people: how hath he removed it from me! turning away he hath divided our fields. 5 Therefore thou shalt have none that shall cast a cord by lot in the congregation of the Lord.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

The 144k are jews. But messianic,or born again.
Jacob's trouble is FOR ISRAEL.
IOW the time of the gentiles closes and Jacobs/Israel's trouble starts.

The rapture is the gathering of the bride,which only pretrib fits.

Think about it.
Only pretrib teachers touch on the heart of the matter

Hi, I like your new avatar image.

But you've sort of side stepped the point there. Which was that the pre-trib model has the church fragmented & broken up into multiple gatherings. (Or at least 2) The Church is the whole body of Christ. It can't be one group partying in heaven while the rest suffer for 7 years. He gathers us all to him at his return when we are revealed in him.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yes the 144,000 are Jews, and more specifically, virgins, 12,000 of whom from each of the twelve tribes.
Are they carnal race Jews, of which there is not a single Jew today whose family heritage has not been assimilated into the whole of Judaism? And if there were pure blood tribe individuals, would there be 144,000 virgins?

Well, to be fair... the word translated "virgins" can also be translated thus:

"These are they who have not been defiled with women; for they are pure [G3933], these following the Lamb wherever He shall go. [...]" Rev14:4



In Revelation 7, "the 144,000" (of the SINGULAR nation, Israel) are set in contradistinction to the "a great multitude... of all the nations [PLURAL]" who are said to have been "coming out of THE GREAT tribulation" (I see the latter verses of this chpt to be parallel with Isa49:10--an earthly MK passage--their "destination-location," so to speak). ALL of these (from both groups) are BELIEVERS/SAINTS (but are not called "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY")

 

[luigi]

Well, to be fair... the word translated "virgins" can also be translated thus:

"These are they who have not been defiled with women; for they are pure [G3933], these following the Lamb wherever He shall go. [...]" Rev14:4

I also see the 144,000 virgin Jews of the 12 tribes being a metaphoric description.
First: There are probably no pure blood Jews of any single tribe, but even if there were some, there would not be 12,000 virgins from each of the twelve tribes. I therefore understand the reference to regard the spiritual qualities each tribe represents, and that these 144,000 represent people with these specific spiritual qualities throughout the world.
Virgins, I also believe means something other than its basic carnal implication. It may mean that these 144,000 are not double minded individuals, who have not had other loves in this world, that would otherwise preclude their sole unification with the Lord.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Lol
Re read my post please.
And DO SEE THE QUOTES I listed BY JESUS.
(the ones you seem to leave out/skip)
Unbelievable

yes the whites your rioting don’t support your theory is my point , I did read the scriptural references you used and , I don’t see anything your saying supported there.

but again it’s not necessary for you to convert to My view and I can’t tomyours because those scriptures your shoring for support don’t support the things your saying . Sometimes the best move is to just move on to a different subject , you and I have completely different views regarding what we’re talking about

that doesn’t make you my enemy , it just means we have some different views on scriptures . It’s ok to end a conversation peacefully even if it doesn’t come to a united conclusion .

so maybe one day you’ll be raptured before Christ returns , in sort of set on waiting for him to return in the end of this world , and if I die before that day I’m set in going to be with him where he is .

so yes I realize you used some scriptural numerical references but when I took the time to look them all up , it doesn’t support what you are saying I would have to just throw out scriptures that you have never even acknowledged and just trust in you and your thinking that doesn’t appear in scripture I’m not willing to do that

and I’m sure you probably feel the opposite that all the scriptures referenc numbers you used infallibly support the rapture

it’s ok to end there I feel like anyways I’m not here to force you or anyone to thjnk Like I do Seems we’re at an impasse regarding this matter , o hope to find agreement in another matter at some point thanks for the time you have given to the discussion

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Good morning Pilgrimshope, Yes I do consider it to be a literal 42 months, because this time frame also appears in Revelation 11:2 & 3 when the gentiles tread Jerusalem underfoot, while the two witnesses are testifying there for 1,260 days. This is when the beast who rises from the bottomless pit (same as the beast in Revelation 13 who rises from the sea) makes war with the two witnesses, at the end of who's reign, the Lord will then commence to reign (Revelation 11:15). This 42 month period which are 1,260 days in Revelation 11:2-3 also appears in Revelation 12:6 & 14, by another description as a time (1), times (2), and half a time (1/2), totaling 3.5 times. When you then divide 1260 days by 3.5 times, we see that each time equals 360 days,---probably representing the shortened years the Lord will shorten.

Revelation 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.


If the first five kings were to come and go within the 42 month there would certainly be a problem. It is a matter of context in understanding what the five members of the beast having had their day means. Assume for example the G-7 represent the seven members of the beast; five of them having ruled and fallen would not mean that they are out of the picture; it just means they are no longer the predominant member of the group. As such, I then understand Italy/Rome having had its day of predominance, of these seven nations somewhere in the first to maybe fifth centuries. Japan would have had its day of predominance circa the 15th century; France circa the 16th, England circa the 18th century; the U.S. in the 20th century. I am, however, not sure about when Germany or Canada would have had their days of predominance.



This eighth king gets a little more complicated and difficult to understand. What is the criteria motivating the fourth beast in Daniel 7, who is the same beast with 10 horns in Revelation 13? Answer: The fourth beast devours the whole earth (Daniel 7:23). The seven member nations of the 10 horned beast are therefore the world's leading consumer nations. As such, the eighth king would be the nation that mostly supplies the seven member nations with the finished products its members worship. In my opinion, the eighth king represents China.

Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

The seven year covenant with many throughout Middle Eastern nations (Daniel 9:27), in which the Gentiles destroy the city (Daniel 9:26), and in the latter half of the week tread Jerusalem underfoot (Revelation 11), is likewise to secure and attain a very much needed commodity (oil) in order for the beast's system to manufacture and consume all the material goods it worships.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

so toy do consider it a literal time period , ok thanks for taking the time to leave your thoughts God bless

 

[luigi]

so toy do consider it a literal time period , ok thanks for taking the time to leave your thoughts God bless

God bless to you too.

 

[Lucy-Pevensie]

It means to not take up arms against the AC.
His job is to mark and controll earths population and martyr Christians.

Why would the scripture advise a Church that will be partying in heaven to have patience on the earth?
Daniel received the same warning.
There will be military resistance and defiance of the Antichrist during the tribulation.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

God bless to you too.

Who do you think the two witnesses represent ? Just sort of picking your thoughts