The problem of being rich

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TheLearner

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Jan 14, 2019
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In other words, you have no reply that would contain any substance. You began a thread based on . . . nothing except generalized condemnation.

There is plenty you could say on the falseness and danger of the Prosperity Doctrine. We all know who the purveys of those doctrines are and most of us who are actually serious, and recognize the doctrine for the confidence scheme that it actually is have spoken out against it's purveyors bluntly and often. If you where actually concerned about that, you would be conducting yourself much differently. You would be pointing out the flaws in the doctrine itself instead of just condemning anyone who's material and/or monetary levels are above some arbitrary tipping point you have assigned to them. People whom you do not know, and, it would seem, don't actually care about. If you did care about them, you would delineate the dangers this doctrine contains instead of pursuing the useless tact of "You're bad if you have material wealth." That does absolutely nothing to explain why the doctrine itself is dangerous.
huh means you don't make any sense. I posted information on the subject in this thread and others too.

I am here to learn how people think not just sling mud.

Problems I see with pentecostalism, charismaticism and WOF in general are: Pride or we are better than you all, Greed in WOF, False prophecies, man made speaking in tongues, aka gibberish or baby talk, Lingistic studies that shows that what is being spoken is just sounds form the speakers language, has no language structure at all, and so on.....selfishness too.
 

TheLearner

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Jan 14, 2019
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Aha! Luke 6:24! That's the verse I was looking for...

What does this mean to you guys? I have always been of the opinion that it makes sense to make as much as you can. To grow wealth in order to provide for others...mostly food/shelter/GOOD clothing (practical, not fashionable). It seems like most should desire to do this...

But then this scripture always kind of catches me. I haven't read it in a while but it's like scripture sort of knocks around in my spirit and crafts my worldview...occasionally I feel the use a magnifying glass on a particular "thread" of the tapestry so to speak.

So you can make a choice. To CHOOSE to be poor because of so many scriptures against the folly of riches...and yet, "something" has to pay the bills, so I always reach a sort of impasse.

I've always wanted to be rich, mostly to help people, also to enjoy all the DIY aspects of being a human being. To build on a solid foundation...every ministry requires donation of some sort. I also have a taste for luxury (even in poverty). Natural luxuries but even those usually cost something. Drinking in the beauty of the grand canyon is a luxury item IMO. Enjoying the beauty of Hawaii...

and yet, I feel guilty for things like that because it doesn't feel very sacrificial and just feels hedonistic to an extent. So it all gets a tad muddled for me.

So it seems like a trap to enjoy this world "fully" solomon style and yet there are times when I feel like that's exactly what the Lord wants me to do. Instead of focusing on eternal rewards...relax, praise and do some earthly content testing ;)

Anyway, any of you guys have frustrating dichotomies like that?
20 Then Jesus looked steadily at his disciples and said, “How happy are you who own nothing, for the kingdom of God is yours!

21 “How happy are you who are hungry now, for you will be satisfied! “How happy are you who weep now, for you are going to laugh!

22-23 “How happy you are when men hate you and turn you out of their company; when they slander you and detest all that you stand for because you are loyal to the Son of Man. Be glad when that happens and jump for joy—your reward in Heaven is magnificent. For that is exactly how their fathers treated the prophets.

24 “But how miserable for you who are rich, for you have had all your comforts!

25 “How miserable for you who have all you want, for you are going to be hungry! “How miserable for you who are laughing now, for you will know sorrow and tears!

26 “How miserable for you when everybody says nice things about you, for that is exactly how their fathers treated the false prophets.

27-28 “But I say to all of you who will listen to me: love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, and pray for those who treat you badly.

29a “As for the man who hits you on one cheek, offer him the other one as well!

29b-30 And if a man is taking away your coat, do not stop him from taking your shirt as well. Give to everyone who asks you, and when a man has taken what belongs to you, don’t demand it back.”

31 “Treat men exactly as you would like them to treat you.”

32-35 “If you love only those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them! And if you do good only to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that, And if you lend only to those from whom you hope to get your money back, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners and expect to get their money back. No, you are to love your enemies and do good and lend without hope of return. Your reward will be wonderful and you will be sons of the most high. For he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked!

36 “You must be merciful, as your father in Heaven is merciful.”

37-38 “Don’t judge other people and you will not be judged yourselves. Don’t condemn and you will not be condemned. Make allowances for others and people will make allowances for you. Give and men will give to you—yes, good measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over will they pour into your lap. For whatever measure you use with other people, they will use in their dealings with you.”

The need for thorough-going sincerity
39-40 Then he gave them an illustration—“Can one blind man be guide to another blind man? Surely they will both fall into the ditch together. A disciple is not above his teacher, but when he is fully trained he will be like his teacher.”

41-42 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and fail to notice the plank in your own? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye’ when you cannot see the plank in your own? You fraud, take the plank out of your own eye first and then you can see clearly enough to remove your brother’s speck.”

43-45 “It is impossible for a good tree to produce bad fruit—as impossible as it is for a bad tree to produce good fruit. Do not men know what a tree is by its fruit? You cannot pick figs from briars, or gather a bunch of grapes from a blackberry bush! A good man produces good things from the good stored up in his heart, and a bad man produce evil things from his own stores of evil. For a man’s words will always express what has been treasured in his heart.”

46 “And what is the point of calling me, ‘Lord, Lord’, without doing what I tell you to do?”

47-49 “Let me show you what the man who comes to me, hears what I have to say, and puts it into practice, is really like. He is like a man building a house, who dug down to rock-bottom and laid the foundation of his house upon it. Then when the flood came and flood-water swept down upon that house, it could not shift it because it was properly built. But the man who hears me and does nothing about it is like a man who built his house with its foundation upon the soft earth. When the flood-water swept down upon it, it collapsed and the whole house crashed down in ruins.”
 

Mii

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Mar 23, 2019
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Yeah but that doesn't really answer anything for me. If the Lord called you to be a prophet, it doesn't necessarily have to mean that you are dirt poor. I struggle with that myself...if I can work for a week and have food for a month am I being pretentious to ask the Lord to provide when provision is in work? Paul paid his own way for practical reasons, a self sustaining ministry that needs no financial donations...many would call that rich. How many self funded lone missionaries do you know?
 

TheLearner

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Jan 14, 2019
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Yeah but that doesn't really answer anything for me. If the Lord called you to be a prophet, it doesn't necessarily have to mean that you are dirt poor. I struggle with that myself...if I can work for a week and have food for a month am I being pretentious to ask the Lord to provide when provision is in work? Paul paid his own way for practical reasons, a self sustaining ministry that needs no financial donations...many would call that rich. How many self funded lone missionaries do you know?
did you read my post about being comfortable?
 

Mii

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Mar 23, 2019
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did you read my post about being comfortable?
Perhaps you can partially quote it because I scrolled back through to page 3 and that was all stuff I remembered.
 
Sep 3, 2016
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But thou shalt remember the LORD thy God: for it is He that giveth thee power to get wealth, that He may establish His covenant which He sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day. Deuteronomy 8:18

Faith demands that God be your source; not one among many - Matthew 6:33
 

oyster67

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May 24, 2014
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Enjoying the beauty of Hawaii...
You live in Georgia, for pete's sake! To a guy stuck in PA, that IS Hawaii :) Don't worry, we won't have to wait much longer... The glorious things we shall behold in the future shall be even grander than the grandest canyons of the present time.
 

oyster67

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May 24, 2014
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So you can make a choice. To CHOOSE to be poor because of so many scriptures against the folly of riches...and yet, "something" has to pay the bills, so I always reach a sort of impasse.
Yes, I have been thinking about that one. I believe that our choice may result in a humble and meek lifestyle, but only indirectly. We choose to conform to the will of Christ for us. This may not be the same for all of us. As for me, yes it did result in a meek lifestyle and income that will never get me to the Grand Canyon or Hawaii, but the Lord has given me peace, joy, and contentment right here where I am at, talking to you, right now. God bless you, brother.
 
Feb 28, 2019
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I believe money is the root of all evil. When one has financial wealth, the desire for power comes along with it regardless of what their intentions started out to be.
 

cobalt1959

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Feb 10, 2019
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huh means you don't make any sense. I posted information on the subject in this thread and others too.

I am here to learn how people think not just sling mud.

Problems I see with pentecostalism, charismaticism and WOF in general are: Pride or we are better than you all, Greed in WOF, False prophecies, man made speaking in tongues, aka gibberish or baby talk, Lingistic studies that shows that what is being spoken is just sounds form the speakers language, has no language structure at all, and so on.....selfishness too.
You should not be slinging mud at all. That's the entire point.

I wouldn't place Pentecostalism in the same tub with Charismatics or WOF'ers. Don't forget New Apostolic Reformation false prophets because they take the other two's bad teachings and turn them up to 11. I've seen tongues in operation many times and is not all gibberish. Sometimes it's faked, sometimes it's not. At any rate, it is something that is way over-sold in every movement that advocates it.

The problem with the prosperity doctrine is the same core problem as with any other false doctrine: It sells people a bill of goods. It takes the real Gospel of Jesus out and replaces it with something else. In this case, salvation means you get lots of cool stuff in this life, and you don't have to change your life in ANY way. I call it the doctrine of least resistance. You can go around claiming to be a Christian, but no pesky repentance, regeneration, or obedience is required of you, and life is just one big series of perks. Every false doctrine sells something different with different incentives but at the core of most of them is that you follow the teachings of an organization or special prophet, the bible is secondary, and that you either don't have to change anything in your life at all, because it doesn't matter to God, or following a set standards of do's and don't's is going to earn you your salvation. Salvation based on either works, or materialism are attractive because they are all centered on Self. They are doctrines born out of selfishness.
 

cobalt1959

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Feb 10, 2019
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Yeah but that doesn't really answer anything for me. If the Lord called you to be a prophet, it doesn't necessarily have to mean that you are dirt poor. I struggle with that myself...if I can work for a week and have food for a month am I being pretentious to ask the Lord to provide when provision is in work? Paul paid his own way for practical reasons, a self sustaining ministry that needs no financial donations...many would call that rich. How many self funded lone missionaries do you know?
There are no "prophets" today, as in being sent directly by God to prophesy to the world. Nor are their any Apostles. Anyone carrying around these titles gave the title to themselves, or some one else pinned it on them. Simply using the title denotes an attitude of pride and superiority. It seems that every Christian forum has a few Self-Proclaimed Internet Super Prophets giving new prophecies in King James English, typing all in caps, (for IMPACT), and telling everyone that anything they speak has to be instantly believed. The Church needs preachers, teachers and evangelists, but it doesn't need prophets or apostles. We already have the Bible, and anything a modern-day "prophet" has to say is already found in the Bible or it is extraneous and unnecessary.
 

Mii

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2019
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You live in Georgia, for pete's sake! To a guy stuck in PA, that IS Hawaii :) Don't worry, we won't have to wait much longer... The glorious things we shall behold in the future shall be even grander than the grandest canyons of the present time.
Yeah I have that feeling also...but it's the patience during the interim that I find maddening sometimes. This site has helped a good bit, a little community helps loads :)

There are no "prophets" today, as in being sent directly by God to prophesy to the world. Nor are their any Apostles. Anyone carrying around these titles gave the title to themselves, or some one else pinned it on them. Simply using the title denotes an attitude of pride and superiority. It seems that every Christian forum has a few Self-Proclaimed Internet Super Prophets giving new prophecies in King James English, typing all in caps, (for IMPACT), and telling everyone that anything they speak has to be instantly believed. The Church needs preachers, teachers and evangelists, but it doesn't need prophets or apostles. We already have the Bible, and anything a modern-day "prophet" has to say is already found in the Bible or it is extraneous and unnecessary.

I would push against that a little bit...There are end times messages. The two witnesses WILL have something to say. The seven thunders (if they are people) WILL have something to say. Barring that though, yes, I am quite suspicious of anyone claiming to have direct words, that isn't to say it can't happen individually, just not corporately. Obviously the scripture about not believing another gospel comes into play STRONGLY.

Most Christians believe we won't be here regardless...could be. I see the remnant concept throughout scripture and it's worth considering up to a point. I personally want to see how everything plays out, at the same time...
 

Mii

Well-known member
Mar 23, 2019
703
453
63
You live in Georgia, for pete's sake! To a guy stuck in PA, that IS Hawaii :) Don't worry, we won't have to wait much longer... The glorious things we shall behold in the future shall be even grander than the grandest canyons of the present time.
Do you guys get pollen like yellow fog though? Not as bad as last year but I always forget about it and it isn't exactly a welcome development.
 

oyster67

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May 24, 2014
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Do you guys get pollen like yellow fog though? Not as bad as last year but I always forget about it and it isn't exactly a welcome development.
I used to have a terrible time with allergies when I was a little tot, but God seems to have used time to deliver me from that tribulation. Since you just mentioned it, I am a rapture guy, but I don't try to force it down other peoples' throats. I just tell them I prefer weddings to beheadings :)
 

cobalt1959

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Feb 10, 2019
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Yeah I have that feeling also...but it's the patience during the interim that I find maddening sometimes. This site has helped a good bit, a little community helps loads :)




I would push against that a little bit...There are end times messages. The two witnesses WILL have something to say. The seven thunders (if they are people) WILL have something to say. Barring that though, yes, I am quite suspicious of anyone claiming to have direct words, that isn't to say it can't happen individually, just not corporately. Obviously the scripture about not believing another gospel comes into play STRONGLY.

Most Christians believe we won't be here regardless...could be. I see the remnant concept throughout scripture and it's worth considering up to a point. I personally want to see how everything plays out, at the same time...
Yes, but the Two Witnesses are specifically defined as special Prophets. There were no such people in that capacity described within the 1st Century Church, and the office of Prophet did not exist. Any time that prophets are being referenced in the New Testament there is always a clear delineation between the office of Old Testament Prophets, of which John the Baptist was the last, and people who simply prophesied, in the new Testament. I am not only highly suspicious of anyone who self-defines themselves as a prophet, I cringe at the thought of it. That's biting off a bigger piece of responsibility than anyone in this day and age can chew.
 

Mii

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Mar 23, 2019
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Yes, but the Two Witnesses are specifically defined as special Prophets. There were no such people in that capacity described within the 1st Century Church, and the office of Prophet did not exist. Any time that prophets are being referenced in the New Testament there is always a clear delineation between the office of Old Testament Prophets, of which John the Baptist was the last, and people who simply prophesied, in the new Testament. I am not only highly suspicious of anyone who self-defines themselves as a prophet, I cringe at the thought of it. That's biting off a bigger piece of responsibility than anyone in this day and age can chew.
Thanks for that...I do think anyone that believes they are a prophet should take a long hard look at the lives of the prophets and ask themselves if their lives testify to that in any shape or form ;)

Other than Elijah, I don't exactly see any other prophet with a ministry of wrath...I suppose moses after a fashion, but that looked more like "Strong-arming" than Judgement.

I think people get "being" with having the gift of prophecy...or some type of foreknowledge. Do you think that gift itself has ceased?
 

oyster67

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May 24, 2014
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That's biting off a bigger piece of responsibility than anyone in this day and age can chew.
Not if they are empowered by the Spirit of the Living God, it ain't. Get up and sharpen your sword, soldier.
 

cobalt1959

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Thanks for that...I do think anyone that believes they are a prophet should take a long hard look at the lives of the prophets and ask themselves if their lives testify to that in any shape or form ;)

Other than Elijah, I don't exactly see any other prophet with a ministry of wrath...I suppose moses after a fashion, but that looked more like "Strong-arming" than Judgement.

I think people get "being" with having the gift of prophecy...or some type of foreknowledge. Do you think that gift itself has ceased?
I don't know if my answer to your questions will make sense or not, depending on your own experience and perspective. Do I believe that the gifts have ceased? No. But there are certain ones that I can simply see no need for in the 21st century, such as tongues. There simply isn't a need for that gift. And I do not say that because I am one of those people who is a Pentecostal basher. I was a member of, and ministered within an Assemblies of God church for a decade. My wife and I did not know it was a Pentecostal church when we started going there. Too long a story to tell here. Charismatics are a Hot Mess. They do things based on emotion and "power" because they think that the only way that God could be working is because they have a Big Show every Sunday. That leads them to accept every single possible thing that could come along, no matter how ridiculous as being "of God." They abuse the system to death, just to make it look as if something is happening. If nothing "powerful" or dramatic is happening, God's is just not working. Pentecostals don't take it that far, but they still have misplaced goals. They want a message in tongues every Sunday simply because, kind of like Charismatics, to know God's really working, but also because they have an intense desire to be doing something for God. This leads to abuses, and an over-concentration on things like tongues. I never spoke in tongues, not one single time. But I was given the interpretation to a message a couple of times, but only gave the interpretation once, the second time, because, to me, saying you are speaking for God is not something that should be taken lightly, like you are going down to the store to buy a Big Gulp. I still worry about whether I actually got the message itself right or not. I have no doubt I had the message, but did I deliver it correctly? The first time it happened, and i didn't give the interpretation, my wife and I were at the Pastor's house that evening for a meeting and he looked at me, out of the blue and said "You had the interpretation of that message this morning. Why didn't you give it?" Now unless he was just fishing as to who actually had the interpretation, something was going on there. I simply doubt that things like that have to have the kind of frequency that Pentecostals require of them. God doesn't need a message in tongues every Sunday. He needs the Gospel preached. People who earnestly believe in the gifts tend to concentrate on them, and only them, and this leads to an imbalance, and not concentrating on other areas of ministry.