The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

[Everlasting-Grace]

Yes, our new nature CANNOT SIN and will not sin.

Our flesh has never seen Him nor known Him.

If we grieve or quench the Spirit.....We are operating from our flesh and not abiding in Him.

1 John 1:9....Sadly many believers do not use Gods plan for them to get back in fellowship/abiding.

Saved as if through fire.

even in the flesh we can not live in sin as John says.

We are new creatures. we do not return to our vomit like a dog. because we are no longer dogs.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Sounds to me like you're making things up. I can just as easily take the other side and say the epitome of hating our siblings is to make them think there is nothing expected of them in the Christian Life. God's Standards are our concern and frankly the concern of all mankind even if they don't want this to be the case.

lol. I love this strawman.

I do not know of any church that does not preach Christian growth. and that we are expected to produce fruit. arm ourselves. learn to become like christ.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Okay but:

The question remains.
Does cashing or "depositing" a birthday check imply you have earned it?
Regardless of who is the check or how much is the check, is there a need to properly accept the check?

lol.

Your example fails.

how many times do you have to be told this?

Your check was cashed at the cross.

you were not handed a check, you were handed an unlimited amount of credit. Now you need to go out and use that credit to serve God. and you will be blessed if you do.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You would be surprised how many on this forum believe that.
They are oness pentacostals, you can only have your sins forgiven if you are baptised in the name of Jesus only.

Church of Christ believes this also

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Actually, we just let all of Scripture say what it says and don't try to explain away what doesn't agree with our presuppositional indoctrination.

You saw me pitting Scripture against Scripture. I saw me referencing more Scripture for a more complete picture as elaborated by the same author, John. So, which one of us has a perspective problem?

You still pitted scripture against scripture

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Have you read Matthew 7? The majority of professing Christians will be told depart from me…

But why? What did they try to give God in response?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I believe when the Bible, Jesus or the Apostles present salvation using the conditional conjunction IF they mean it to be taken literally. Saying we believe it because we are lazy students of the word or because we have "left our first love" is just an ad hominem accusation. In fact, the belief that we can abandon grace is not just a position derived from the NT but one believed in the Ante Nicene Believers.

We can abandon grace offered to us.

But we can not abandon salvation. Because we could never save ourselves. in this application we can never unsave ourselves. it is all of God

 

[PennEd]

But why? What did they try to give God in response?

THEIR works as justification.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

studier: I don't decry I am working. I was created to work, and I find working as a new creation to be very natural. In fact, I never found working to be as enjoyable as it is to be working together with Him always seeking to do His will.​

​

E-G: We agree 100 percent on this.​

You must have missed the part about working together with God. I'll leave to you to explain why working together doesn't mean to cooperate.

Working together, I work together with my co workers. and we get a job done, whatever the job is.

I am not cooperating with my co-worker.

And again, We do it because we are saved, Not to get saved.. thats the part you seem to not understand

Another misrepresentation but you have to do this to maintain your false narrative.

You pretty much show I am right every time we speak.

You can do the work. Here's some guidance: Copy what you wrote into a new post. Explain whether you translated it yourself or please supply the translation identification. Then copy and paste any other English version of the same verse and explain how yours compares and why.

I am not playing your game.. Why do you not just own up what you believe. practice what you preach. when you can convince me I have misrepresented you. Or change you view.. then we may get somewhere. You accused me of adding to the word. Back your accusation with facts

Says the one I've offered on several occasions to cooperate with in the review and analysis of any Scripture we had been discussing only to see you divert into one form of fallacious argument or another.

How about just taking up the task of explaining your latest post of a Scripture. If I agree with you, I'll state it clearly. If not, then I'll attempt to explain why.

Non responsive..

I pretty much paraphrased the words..

You claim I added to the word.

yet you can not show me and everyone else how I did this. You instead make excuses and refuse to back your accusations.

If you can not understand what I said. then you have more problems I can help with.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Besides what I said before. The entire verse that says everyone who believes in Him should not perish is a PRESENT TENSE PARTICIPLE of the Greek word BELIEVE. The fact that it is in the PRESENT TENSE indicates that the verse was not talking about a SINGLE PAST decision to believe but an ONGOING one. It means that we "believe and keep believing" That is not "spin" it is simply the grammatical sense of the word.

Again.

He who believes will never perish, and will live forever.

This happens at the point of faith.

Jesus is speaking to not only nicodemus, but everyone who would read his words later

those reading, If they believe, they know they will never perish.

however. If he tells them they will never perish at that point, and they can still peris.. then something is wrong. Jesus lied.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The verses do not comply or agree with each other, they oppose each other?

OR

The verses do agree in your interpretation.?

They do not agree when we use your interpretation. They contradict each other.

Is this hard to understand or what? I do not understand why you find this difficult to understand.

When I use my interpretation. then there is no division, they do not contradict each other. And that is the way it should be, If they contradicted each other. or caused division. then I would need to rethink my interpretation.

I personally have done this many times in my years. Have you not done this? Or do you even look for apparent contradictions?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

"If" is not always a conditional clause. You should know this.

"If" can also be stating the truth.

yes, not only in english. but in all languages.

If I do this, then I will recieve something - Conditional clause)

If I do this, I have recieved something - (I already did this. vs I have not already done this)\

If I do this, I will get that (It is impossible for me to meet the requirments. so the if is not a reality)

Another way to say is if Maybe I will Maybe I wont
If But I have

If, but I can't

In john 3 we see two possibilities

If I believe, I will never perish and live forever (I am no longer condemned)

If I have already believed, I am assured I will never die and will live forever (eternal life)

If I have not believed, I am condemned already

 

[NOV25]

🤪🍿

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Good Lord!

John 3:16
Acts 16:31
John 5:24.

You and I are Eternally saved. Finished. Never perish. No condemnation. Nothing separates us from the Love of Christ. We are sealed with the same seal as the Son. We have eternal life. We have a forever advocate. He will lose none.

Heb 5:12
For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the actual words of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.

sadly,

he disagrees you are eternally saved, you will never perish and are no longer condemned forever.

He thinks you can still lose all those things

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

In his popular textbook "Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics" Greek professor, Daniel Wallace, wrote that "believes" was conjugated as a PRESENT TENSE PARTICIPLE in John 3:16 because in the writings of John particularly FAITH indicates something ONGOING and PRESENT TENSE or "believe and keep believing." The ancient Christians did not see salvation as something that only happened in the past but something we continue in. Since you told me to study up I suppose you already knew that. As it happens, I met Dr. Wallace on several occasions and clarified this with him which does not, by itself make me right but it shows that I have done my homework.

Did Abraham believe it is something we continue in?

Did Paul?

Did Jesus?

What can we do to merit salvation?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The proper way to cash a check such as a birthday check.

Is the act of cashing the check imply merit on the person given the check?

So God gives you a check to save you?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

We may well agree, at least in part, if and when we could get to the bottom of all of this.

If you think never perish can ever mean may not perish

or no condemnation means may not be condemned.

then no. I doubt there can ever be agreement

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Loss of salvation for the armins is just like total depravity for the calvies.


Go WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY out in the weeds so the simple truth becomes convoluted and hard.

Any believer~~ You cannot, in any way, lose eternal life.PERIOD. Signed, "The Lord Jesus Christ." John 10:28, John 5:24.....and MANY others.

and for good measure, we have the seal of the spirit.. Which we can grieve, but we can not lose..

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

And Free Grace Dispensationalism has it all correct...But so does everyone who disagrees with it.

Be cautious to understand the difference between simple and simplistic - simplistic being some of what is being presented here by @Kroogz and a few others.

Grace is not free. its a misnomer.

The price paid was the cross.

I am dumbfounded you or anyone else thinks you can add your own works to what Christ did to make yourself saved.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

You alluded to Romans 8:1 so let me answer that. The verse says: 1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death.…

We as believers IN CHRIST are not under the condemnation of sin and the law because the gospel, the Word





It would have been easy to say that if a person believes ONCE only they will forever be saved. All that would ne necessary to communicate that idea would be to use the AORIST (past) tense. Instead, John used the PRESENT PARTICIPLE. John uses this verb to communicate the same idea in Gospel and his letters. It has nothing to do with the point in time when the verse is READ or HEARD. It is true that God's word is always present and always true. That does not mean WE are immutable and will inevitably continue in the word of salvation. In fact, John thought it necessary to exhorts us to remain in the word we received and that only if we do so will we CONTINUE in the FATHER and SON which the Apostle says IS ETERNAL LIFE

24As for you, LET what you have heard from the beginning REMAIN (abide, continue) in you. IF IT DOES, you will also remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And THIS IS THE PROMISE that He Himself made to us: ETERNAL LIFE.…
(1 John 2:24)

He said, as those who looked to the serpent in Moses day, they looked because they believed, and when they did they were saved (healed) they did not have to keep on believing to remain healed. and if they stopped believing the poison of the snakes returned and killed them, they were saved forever once they recieved the gift God gave them

He also said, the moment you are presently believing, you will never perish and you will live forever.

You can not tell a person this, if they can in the future still perish, and your eternal life is conditional on whatever you do or do not do.

It just does nto work.