The Prophet John the Baptist’ Message

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7seasrekeyed

Guest
Anyone on either side of this debate is partly in error. Since error is error, there is no dfference in partly and fully.

No one in the love o Jesus Christ would ever dny entrance to our Family in Yeshua simply because they, for one reason or another have not yet been baptized..

Jesus told His disciples to go out and spread the Word baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

I received the Holy Spirit without the benefit of having read the Word...……...I was over joyed constantly and reading throught the Word for the first time, when a brother in Jesus told me I should be baptized, and I was.

I did because I wanted to do as Jesus did…...I did, I am happy, but my realzation of being saved came with the infilling of the Holy Spirit……..to argue baptizm is kind of moot. There are people who were saved yet not baptized inthe Word, and all know this.

actually, having followed Wansvics posts in several threads now (she has diverted other threads from their topic to her topic of baptism which amounts to preaching in a way that reminds one of trolling IMO), I am sorry to tell you that is exactly what she believes

she believes if you are not water baptized you are not saved. she believes that water ... physical water...cleanses your inward sin

she has said this many times and people need to understand what she is actually pushing

this error goes back to the roots of Catholicism and it adds to salvation and makes salvation part works
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
Jesus was buried as part of His redemption plan to save us, so water baptism is part of the Gospel.
no that is not the gospel

the gospel is the 'good news' concerning salvation

water baptism is an illustration of our being buried with Christ and rising up with him in new life

if water actually washed away sins, we would not need Jesus
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
You misunderstand. I know that without the sacrifice of Jesus nothing else matters. However, upon accepting Him as my savior the bible states clear instructions that are adhered to numerous times as a witness to new believers. Ignoring the instructions given is not wise for anyone.

if you actually believe that the sacrifice of Christ is all sufficient, how is it you preach the opposite?

you say you believe that, but your posts concerning baptism are in direct conflict with this
 
Dec 27, 2018
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The reason I don't waver in this is because the scriptures so clearly express the need. (2 Timothy 3:16) Experiences as those you mention are just not recorded in the word. Some would argue that the thief on the cross is an example. But upon rightly dividing the word it is clear that the thief died in the dispensation prior to the institution of the rebirth experience provided to the NT church.
a true disciple will obey his Lord. I am not arguing against baptism, just against its efficacy to save. Cornelius recived the Spirit before baptism, and other folks, I think in Acts 19 were baptized without receiving the Spirit immediately

it is Grace (God's authority mingled with generous mercy) that saves, not anything we do, even faith is secondary and not the cause of our salvation

Exercise all means of Grace at your disposal, but trust none of them. The Grace of God is our only hope and trust
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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that's right

people need to study the historical record

making statements that John started baptism bolsters the erroneous belief that water baptism removes sin as Wansvic is actually teaching

it's just more twisting to align with an already bogus belief
John's baptism differed from the mikveh in that John stated it was a baptism of repentance for the remission of sin. Also, individual's immersed themselves in the Jewish mikveh. Whereas John's baptism required a person to submit to being baptized by someone else.

Also interesting, as mentioned, is the fact that the mikveh was the means by which one converted to Judaism.
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
John's baptism differed from the mikveh in that John stated it was a baptism of repentance for the remission of sin. Also, individual's immersed themselves in the Jewish mikveh. Whereas John's baptism required a person to submit to being baptized by someone else.

Also interesting, as mentioned, is the fact that the mikveh was the means by which one converted to Judaism.

still no baptismal regeneration

still wrong

John told people to repent and THEN he baptized them

he never said come and have your sins washed away in the river Jordan
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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actually, having followed Wansvics posts in several threads now (she has diverted other threads from their topic to her topic of baptism which amounts to preaching in a way that reminds one of trolling IMO), I am sorry to tell you that is exactly what she believes

she believes if you are not water baptized you are not saved. she believes that water ... physical water...cleanses your inward sin

she has said this many times and people need to understand what she is actually pushing

this error goes back to the roots of Catholicism and it adds to salvation and makes salvation part works
The bible expresses numerous times the way in which one receives remission of sin:

Luke 24:47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, BEGINNING AT JERUSALEM:

In Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost "...Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the NAME of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38

For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him. Matt 21:25, 32

Mark 1:2-4
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance FOR the remission of sins.

Luke 1:76-77
And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
To give knowledge of salvation unto his people BY the remission of their sins,

Luke 3:3
And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance FOR the remission of sins;

Acts 10:43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 22:16 (Apostle Paul’s water baptism)
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, CALLING ON THE NAME of the Lord.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Ok,JTB represents change. The water represents change.

Change.

Jesus' baptism was into change.
1) the closing of the levitical priesthood
2) the begining of judaic priesthood(david/melchesidic)
3) the anointing/Holy Spirit
4) the Jordan itself represented change
5) JTB baptised into repentance. Repentance is change.

JTB is the end of the ot. He passed the priesthood on to Jesus. Only he could do that. Nobody else. Remove JTB and the entire deal is off.
JTB. by lineage could do it. Not chiaphas or annas whi were roman appointees.
The bible says in baptism [possibly Colossians ],we identify with Jesus death,burial and resurrection in water baptism. We not only seal ourselves in commitment,we declare who we are,what we are,and loyalty to,and ownership by,a new master.[change,change,change]
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
The bible expresses numerous times the way in which one receives remission of sin:

Luke 24:47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, BEGINNING AT JERUSALEM:

In Jerusalem on the Day of Pentecost "...Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the NAME of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38

For John came unto you in the way of righteousness, and ye believed him not: but the publicans and the harlots believed him: and ye, when ye had seen it, repented not afterward, that ye might believe him. Matt 21:25, 32

Mark 1:2-4
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance FOR the remission of sins.

Luke 1:76-77
And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
To give knowledge of salvation unto his people BY the remission of their sins,

Luke 3:3
And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance FOR the remission of sins;

Acts 10:43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 22:16 (Apostle Paul’s water baptism)
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, CALLING ON THE NAME of the Lord.

well right on cue

baptism baptism baptism

and yet Christ died and shed His blood

is there a reason you never mention the actual way to have our sins forgiven?

water is identified with repentance by John the Baptist and at no point does he baptize and claim the water cleanses from all sin

you have included scripture that identifies Jesus as the one to believe in to have sins forgiven

however you have 'diluted' this with your baptismal regeneration belief

you should have stopped at

Luke 1:76-77
And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
To give knowledge of salvation unto his people BY the remission of their sins,

Acts 10:43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
 
7

7seasrekeyed

Guest
now regarding your statement on mikvah which I overlooked, but did go into in some detail in your post on OT circumcsision, which you handily glossed over; you have a sketchy understanding of the mikvah

the mikvah was a physical act, just like water baptism was and is today

however, you would have it play some sort of mystical spiritual experience, which, again, is not biblical

the mikvah was SYMBOLIC. again, like baptism both in times past and today

total immersion is the norm for most Christians in our culture and was in the Jewish culture

however, research identifies this immersion of the body as SYMBOLIC of the new identification being taken on as conversion to the Jewish faith...just the way Christians symbolically identify with a new life in Christ when they come out of the water after being immersed

it is not for the forgiveness of sins

even the slightest knowledge of how sins were 'forgiven' (and even that symbolically before Christ the final sacrifice) illustrates there is no forgiveness without blood being shed

you are incorrect in your interpretation regarding the forgiveness of sins and apparently that holds true for both testaments
 
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7seasrekeyed

Guest
HEBREWS 9 tells us that the actual forgiveness of our sins is ONLY through the blood of Christ. All purification by water is symbolic and does not cleanse from inner sin. The High Priest went into the Holy of Holies but once a year and only after offering blood...the Jews understood what John the Baptist was getting at being familiar with temple ritual washing and blood sacrifice. They were not confused believing that they were being forgiven of sins by being dunked in the Jordan


The Earthly Sanctuary and Its Ritual
9 Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly sanctuary. 2 For a tent was set up, and in the first part were the lamp stand, the table, and the bread of the Presence. This was called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second curtain was the part of the tent called the Most Holy Place, 4 which had the gold altar for incense and the Ark of the Covenant completely covered with gold. In it were the gold jar holding the manna, Aaron’s staff that had budded, and the Tablets of the Covenant. 5 Above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the place of atonement. (We cannot discuss these things in detail now.)

6 When everything had been arranged like this, the priests always went into the first part of the tent to perform their duties. 7 But only the high priest went into the second part, and then only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins committed by the people in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was indicating by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first part of the tent was still standing. 9 This illustration for today indicates that the gifts and sacrifices being offered could not clear the conscience of a worshiper, 10 since they deal only with food, drink, and various washings, which are required for the body until the time when things would be set right.

The Messiah Has Offered a Superior Sacrifice
11 But when the Messiah came as a high priest of the good things that have come, he went through the greater and more perfect tent that was not made by human hands and that is not a part of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with his own blood he went into the Most Holy Place once for all and secured our eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are unclean purifies them physically, 14 how much more will the blood of the Messiah, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from dead actions so that we may serve the living God!

The Messiah’s Perfect Sacrifice
23 Thus it was necessary for these earthly copies of the things in heaven to be cleansed by these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves are made clean with better sacrifices than these. 24 For the Messiah did not go into a sanctuary made by human hands that is merely a copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, to appear now in God’s presence on our behalf. 25 Nor did he go into heaven to sacrifice himself again and again, the way the high priest goes into the Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26 Then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the creation of the world. But now, at the end of the ages, he has appeared once for all to remove sin by his sacrifice. 27 Indeed, just as people are destined to die once and after that to be judged, 28 so the Messiah was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people. And he will appear a second time, not to deal with sin,but to bring salvation to those who eagerly wait for him.
 
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Prior to John’s conception, which was miraculous in itself, an angel told his father Zacharias that his son would be:

Great in the sight of the Lord.
He would turn the Jews to the Lord their God.
He would make ready a people prepared for the Lord.


And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying:

Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;” Luke 1:67-69

John’s name was of utmost importance:
An angel told his father his son’s name would be John.

Due to his unbelief in the angel’s message he was struck dumb and was unable to speak until the day his son would receive his name on the day he was circumcised.

When they came to circumcise baby John they called his name Zacharias, meaning the Lord has remembered, but his mother intervened and said not so, his name is John. Those present thought it odd because they had no family members with the name John. Normally babies were named after a family member. They questioned Zacharias and he wrote “His name is John,” on a tablet. Immediately Zacharias’ tongue was loosed.

The name John means God graciously gives. Ask yourself what God-given message was professed by John the Baptist; faith in the coming messiah; Jesus Christ, and water baptism.

Consider, also, the following words spoken to Zacharias about his son:

“And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways;
To give knowledge of salvation unto his people BY the remission of their sins,
Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,
To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.´ Luke 1:76-79


John begins preaching about the coming messiah who will take away the sins of the world and water baptism for remission of those sins:

The Word of God came unto John the Baptist while he was in the wilderness. Notice John’s message was preached to those in the wilderness. The wilderness symbolizes the natural world wherein is spiritual darkness. Luke 3:2

John began preaching the need for water baptism for the remission of sin. (1st time remission of sin connected to water baptism) Luke 3:3 One sees the continuation of the message that sins are remitted in water baptism in Acts 2:38.

After Jesus secured salvation through His death, burial, and resurrection, all of mankind must step out in faith by being obedient to the Word. One element in the Word is everyone must be water baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
Thank you for your inspiring post.
The house of Joseph & Zacharias was at the epicenter of the world
 
Jul 23, 2018
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John the Baptist first delivered the concept of water baptism to Israel; however, as noted in scripture it applied to all peoples.
The salvation plan which includes repentance and water baptism in Jesus name applies to all; Jews, Gentiles, Samaritans, etc.
I believe proselyites were baptised into the jewish faith,as well as priests into the priesthood.
The priests(apparently) were innersed before entering the hoh.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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I believe proselyites were baptised into the jewish faith,as well as priests into the priesthood.
The priests(apparently) were innersed before entering the hoh.
John the Baptist introduced water baptism as the "Baptism of repentance for the remission of sin."
"And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
...Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Luke 3:3-4

Jesus would later state that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name beginning at Jerusalem. Luke 24:47

The initial connection between repentance and remission of sins and Jesus' name is recorded in Peter's command given in JERUSALEM
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:38-39
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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John the Baptist introduced water baptism as the "Baptism of repentance for the remission of sin."
"And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
...Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. Luke 3:3-4

Jesus would later state that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name beginning at Jerusalem. Luke 24:47
Was this baptism of repentance (for) "in order to obtain" the remission of sins or (for) "in regards to/on the basis" of the remission of sins received upon repentance? In Matthew 3:11, we read - "I baptize you with water for repentance.. (NASB) Was this baptism for "in order to obtain" repentance? (which makes no sense at all) or was this baptism for "in regards to/on the basis of" repentance? So water baptism does not obtain repentance or the remission of sins, but is done "in regards to/on the basis of" the remission of sins which are received upon repentance. Luke 24:47 - and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

The initial connection between repentance and remission of sins and Jesus' name is recorded in Peter's command given in JERUSALEM Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Acts 2:38-39
In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony* (y)