The Rapture Event

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randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
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Pacific NW USA
kinda slick how you framed me personally as sarcastic and ungodly.
Ok slick.
You sank to the same level as those you are condemning

Btw
"Condemnation prior to investigation" has ZERO to do with condemning anyone personally.
It is simply saying people throw out study and facts because of ignorance and REFUSAL to look at evidence. (condemning a doctrine with no investigation of evidence of what that doctrine really says)
"Condemnation prior to investigation."
You could actually name the postrib workbook exactly that.

You actually come up with far fetched IDEAS of act 1 and Matt 25 and rev 14.

You are actually reducing revelation to a vision not to be taken seriously
I know disagreements can be annoying, but I prefer to keep all Christian discussions "Christian," and representative of Christian "love." Let's leave the "hostile" remarks out of it as much as possible if you wish to discuss our differences at all.

I have studied this subject--very much so over the last 50 years. I'm qualified to discuss it, I should think?
 
Aug 22, 2024
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It actually says that before the flood they (the ungodly) were eating and drinking up until Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and took the eaters and drinkers away into destruction before they knew what was happening.

But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:37-39
Yes
Pretrib rapture
Normal life is the setting.
The postrib rapture
You're welcome to your opinion. I understand your argument, but cannot accept it as reasonable.

I cannot see "in like manner" as an assumption that millions of horses followed Jesus as he ascended into the clouds of heaven. Rather, he ascended alone into heaven, and will return from heaven "in like manner."

That is, in the way he went up to heaven he will return from heaven. It has no reference to who went with him or to who comes with him. It strictly has to do with the fact that he left for heaven and will return from heaven. That is my opinion and conviction.

"In like manner" cannot possibly assume a Pretrib Rapture because it was a reference to Jesus' ascension into heaven following his resurrection, and had nothing whatsoever to do with the Rapture of the Church. And yet Jesus is coming back with his Church. So, when we are told Jesus will return "in like manner just as he left" the obvious inference is to his Ascension, and not to a Pretrib Rapture of the Church.
Jesus comes once correct?
That coming is with millions of horses correct?
..a warrior king doing battle with , and destroying the AC and his army, correct?
A warrior king coming and setting up his earthly rule, correct?
 
Aug 22, 2024
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I know disagreements can be annoying, but I prefer to keep all Christian discussions "Christian," and representative of Christian "love." Let's leave the "hostile" remarks out of it as much as possible if you wish to discuss our differences at all.

I have studied this subject--very much so over the last 50 years. I'm qualified to discuss it, I should think?
You do not know the doctrine of your opponent, nor do you understand it.

It is easy to debate one that investigates.
The facts and evidence are compared.
You are unwilling to investigate or compare facts.
Things like "before", or 50% presented twice in the same breath by Jesus, "virgins" meaning christian beleivers, "angels gather from heaven" completely reframed into, "Jesus gathers from earth", the 2 gatherings in rev 14, omitted or beyond any reasonable explaination.
The "like manner" you can not grasp, the dialogue at the last supper , which no postribber understands, the complete misunderstanding of the purpose of the GT, the COMPLETE OMISSION of the bride groom component ( the basis of the rapture that no postribber dares to venture into).

...just to name a few.

Flat out shocking the banner of your doctrine.
It is 100% "condemnation prior to investigation"
Zero investigation.
How do I debate people on a mission of "knowing I am wrong, but can't figure out why"
 
Aug 22, 2024
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Well, the truth is, you aren't really being honest. You said I haven't done any investigation. Of course i have. If all you want to do is marginalize my claims by submitting false evidence then I don't think we can debate anything.
Lol
Then address the pretrib verses that EVERY POSTRIBBER OMITS.
The fact you guys OMIT VERSES is in fact your REFUSAL to investigate.
Your doctrine is easy.
Form 2 opinions.
1) pretrib can not be right.
( which is every postribber banner, platform, and starting point)
2) omit every verse contrary to your theory.
Poooof! A doctrine is born.
 
Aug 22, 2024
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You're welcome to your opinion. I understand your argument, but cannot accept it as reasonable.

I cannot see "in like manner" as an assumption that millions of horses followed Jesus as he ascended into the clouds of heaven. Rather, he ascended alone into heaven, and will return from heaven "in like manner."

That is, in the way he went up to heaven he will return from heaven. It has no reference to who went with him or to who comes with him. It strictly has to do with the fact that he left for heaven and will return from heaven. That is my opinion and conviction.

"In like manner" cannot possibly assume a Pretrib Rapture because it was a reference to Jesus' ascension into heaven following his resurrection, and had nothing whatsoever to do with the Rapture of the Church. And yet Jesus is coming back with his Church. So, when we are told Jesus will return "in like manner just as he left" the obvious inference is to his Ascension, and not to a Pretrib Rapture of the Church.
Try reading it real slow.
"....shall return in like manner".
Investigate the facts.
It is painfully easy.

Why would anyone that is is a bible hound dance around something that is a total no brainer???????
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
972
276
63
Pacific NW USA
You do not know the doctrine of your opponent, nor do you understand it.

It is easy to debate one that investigates.
The facts and evidence are compared.
You are unwilling to investigate or compare facts.
Things like "before", or 50% presented twice in the same breath by Jesus, "virgins" meaning christian beleivers, "angels gather from heaven" completely reframed into, "Jesus gathers from earth", the 2 gatherings in rev 14, omitted or beyond any reasonable explaination.
The "like manner" you can not grasp, the dialogue at the last supper , which no postribber understands, the complete misunderstanding of the purpose of the GT, the COMPLETE OMISSION of the bride groom component ( the basis of the rapture that no postribber dares to venture into).

...just to name a few.

Flat out shocking the banner of your doctrine.
It is 100% "condemnation prior to investigation"
Zero investigation.
How do I debate people on a mission of "knowing I am wrong, but can't figure out why"
Okay, you just explained that you cannot debate in a "Christian" manner. I have no interest in debating you on this. You positively misrepresent me. I just spent weeks studying a book that presents the Pretrib position by a Pretrib scholar. Is that "no investigation?" No. Is that condemnation? No. Bye.
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
972
276
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Pacific NW USA
Lol
Then address the pretrib verses that EVERY POSTRIBBER OMITS.
The fact you guys OMIT VERSES is in fact your REFUSAL to investigate..
The fact you throw out false charges is easy to prove. However, even if I should prove you wrong, you will not confess your misrepresentation. I've addresssed all of the Pretrib arguments thrown at me. I've omitted nothing. Rather than debate issues you wish to attack the person. I'm not interested in your style of "debate."
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
972
276
63
Pacific NW USA
Try reading it real slow.
"....shall return in like manner".
Investigate the facts.
It is painfully easy.

Why would anyone that is is a bible hound dance around something that is a total no brainer???????
Why is your brand of Christianity "rudeness?" It's more important that you learn true Christianity than debate various Christian disagreements.
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
972
276
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Pacific NW USA
Jesus shall indeed return "in like manner as he left.* He ascended into the clouds. He returns from the clouds. This does not mean the circumstances will be exactly the same in both instances. When Jesus left he left in his old body, healed from torture and death. When he returns he will come on a horse in a glorified body, with the saints and angels following him.

Are we to say that Jesus must come *exactly* as he left, that since he left alone he must return alone? No, the similarity consists of his promise to return, to return from the clouds just as he disappeared into the clouds. There is no thought to make the return exactly as the exit.

Not even the Pretrib position can say that a return *for the Church* is precisely the same as *leaving the 12 Apostles.* An international Church is very different from a small group of disciples. The assumption that Jesus' glorious return with his Church is too dissimilar from Jesus' departure in the clouds is to insert another "secret Coming" that meets the Church in the clouds rather than returns to them on earth, just as he left.
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
972
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Pacific NW USA
I was asked, if I wanted to discuss the Rapture and its controversies, to read "The Rapture Pretribulation, Prewrath, or Postribulation." This book shares the 3 viewpoints indicated, and I've read it, taken notes, and made comments. I still have to digest some of the material, but I'll begin with Blaising's Pretrib view.

Much of what Blaising believes is predicated on his unique view of the relationship between historical prophetic fulfillment and the Parousia (Coming of Christ). He believes OT prophecies of Antiochus 4 and the destruction of Jerusalem were deliberately given with an eschatological flavor, to present an eschatological sense of the imminence of Chtrist's Coming and Kingdom. At least that's how I read him here...

pg 40 "The point of this study is that in the 1st part of the Olivet Discourse ...Jesus gives a pattern that includes the sign of the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven. This pattern has as its structure Daniel's time of the end, and it carries the descriptive features of the day of the Lord. It is, in fact, this integrated day of the Lord, time of the end pattern that constitutes the contribution of the Olivet Discourse to the development of biblical eschatology."

What Blaising is doing is interpreting historical events as connected to eschatological realities, when it may actually only be a matter of his own interpretation. He just makes the assumption because this is a common view held by many of the competing positions.

But this belies other avenues that have been explored in the past--views that are now being overlooked by views that bypass them with their own biases. I believe that historical prophecies were *not* given, implicitly, in an eschatological context, but only with a view to aiming in that direction, ultimately. That is, prophecies fulfilled in history, like the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem, were not intended to "look endtime," but actually, to lead to it via the long road of the Jewish Diaspora.

Here is what Blaising says, regarding his sense of an "eschatological" history...

1) pg. 50 "the whole day is the day of his coming."
2) pg. 51 "his appearing is near in accordance with the well-known pattern that has been revealed about that coming."
3) pg. 53 "Furthermore, Paul focuses on the coming, the onset, the beginning of the day of the Lord by drawing upon Jesus' own teaching about the onset of the day as a whole in the 2nd part of the Olivet Discourse and by referencing the beginning of the day of the Lord with Jesus' own description of that beginning in the 1st part of the Olivet Discourse. In other words, Paul is speaking of the 7-year tribulation--the 70th week of Daniel--when he speaks of the day of the Lord in 1 Thess. 5. And he is speaking of the onset, the beginning of this tribulation as coming suddenly, without warning..."
4) pg. 54 "in the preceding discussion of both 1 Thess. 4-5 and the Olivet Discourse, the expression Parousia is not used merely of the visible descent but of the day of the Lord as a whole, of which the visible descent is the culmination."
5) pg. 54 "The sequential pattern that Paul gives begins with an apostasy" and the revelation of a "man of lawlessness," who is described by means of a citation from Dan 11.36... ...this temple blasphemy corresponding to and apparently interpreting the abomination of desolation in Daniel's 70th week and in the Olivet Discourse."
6) pg. 56 "Whatever the apostasy refers to, the activity of the Man of Lawlessness presented here actually belongs to the integrated day of the Lord. .. The coming of the day of the Lord in both the Olivet Discourse and in 1 Thess. 5 is without signs, without warning."

I will end with this for now. But it should be apparent that Blaising appears to confuse the Day of the Lord by changing it from the *day that Christ comes back" to an extended era, including the Signs of the Olivet Discourse, the Seals of the book of Revelation, a Pretrib Rapture, the AoD/Antichristian Reign, and the 2nd Coming. This hardly seems cogent.

He thinks that Jesus meant to instill an awareness that he could return imminently when he listed various signs that lead to the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, and reinterpreted them as *signs of imminence.* But I think he was quite literally giving signs of warning that presaged the imminent fall of Jerusalem on behalf of his Disciples who would see it.

The prophecy of Daniel 9 spoke of this very time of Jerusalem's fall to the Romans, and could not have been presaging the end of the age. Jesus was asked 2 questions, and not just 1. He was asked about both the fall of Jerusalem and his Return. They should not be mixed together.

And so, Jesus separated from his prediction of the fall of Jerusalem his 2nd Coming by inserting the need to preach the Gospel to all nations and by stating that following the fall of Jerusalem Israel would go into exile for the rest of the age (the Jewish Diaspora). This fall of Israel would mean homelessness for the Jewish Church, as well, since they would lose their homeland along with unbelieving Jews who were actually the targets of God's Wrath.

Enough for now...
 

randyk

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Jan 14, 2021
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Pacific NW USA
Page 2

As I've been saying, Blaising stretches the meaning of the "Day of the Lord" to include much more than the single day of Christ's Return. Instead, it is based on the notion that historical prophecies intentionally have an eschatological flair, and attempt to instill in readers a sense of imminent expectation. This anxious expectation is associated with a private revelation, instigated by the events designed to herald its beginning.

8) pg. 59 "The question is whether this seal-breaking series presents the day of the Lord as occurring subsequent to the tribulational events of the 1st 5 seal visions or whether all of these events are meant to be taken as the day of the Lord. 3 considerations support the latter view... The 1st is the parallel between the elements of John's seal visions and the early elements of Jesus' Olivet Discourse... The 2nd consideration has to do with the way the day of the Lord is said to begin in the 2nd part of the Olivet Discourse...The 3rd consideration is related to the grammatical/literary description of the day of the Lord's "coming" in Rev. 6... In the visions that correspond to the breaking of the 1st 4 seals, John hears each of the 4 living creatures calling, "Come!"...features of the day of the Lord."

9) pg. 52 "One point of agreement is that "the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world to try those who dwell on the earth" is the future tribulation."

The "hour of trial" was actually an historical experience of the ancient church at Philadelphia, who were given to escape a major problem in their day. And yet Blaising turns this into a future event--something that futurist interpreters often do with prophecies that might ordinarily be viewed as historically fulfilled.

Blaising recognizes that there is general tribulation that all Christians experience, but he, as a futurist interpreter, identifies a future "Great Tribulation" associated with the Reign of Antichrist. However, the "Great Tribulation," as defined by Jesus, is a strictly Jewish punishment, including both believers and unbelievers among the Jews in the suffering.

And it lasts throughout the NT age, which is what actually makes it the greatest tribulation, ie the greatest punishment Israel as a nation has ever suffered. Futurists tend to view the Reign of Antichrist as a fulfillment of the "Great Tribulation," mentioned by Jesus in his Olivet Discourse and also mentioned by Daniel in ch. 12. They feel that this tribulation, in being so terrible, would have to constitute a kind of wrath from God that excludes the Church.

But I believe the "Great Tribulation" is purely a prophecy applying to Jewish history which at the time was still under the Law. Luke 21 makes it pretty clear that this "Great Distress" was a Jewish "punishment!"

Blaising identifies this so-called "Great Tribulation" not just with the Reign of Antichrist, but also with the Wrath of God that is coming from Christ to bring judgment upon the world. It is assumed that this requires some length of time, instead of just a single day. And in fact, some judgments do take time, though they may not necessarily be called the "Day of the Lord."

So despite the fact Blaising acknowledges that Christians, or saints, are in this "Tribulation Period," he denies that the Church of the present age can be in that time period, being that it is God's Wrath and the Church as a whole should be protected from it. But again, general tribulation is the lot of all Christians, and experiencing God's Wrath in our land does not indicate that we are the targets of God's wrath. If Antichrist's Reign is not really the "greatest tribulation" in history, as Blaising seems to think, then it is no more "God's Wrath" upon the whole world than it is "God's Wrath" when we live in lands under Divine judgment.

The greatest wrath of God directed at the whole world will be Armageddon itself, which is the beginning of sentencing men to eternal death in the act of God punishing their rebellion. And this appears to happen on the last day of the age in the book of Revelation. Those who suffer on earth during this period are not the objects of God's wrath necessarily, but may be unfortunate casualties in this battle of Christ versus the Antichrist.

Though Blaising asserts that the Church of the present age cannot be in the time of Antichrist's Reign, he admits that he cannot show a "Rapture" event in the book of Revelation. He can only state that there was ambiguity in Jesus' message warning his Disciples to avoid God's Wrath by watching for him imminently, even though they may not be the ones who actually see the Rapture event.

10) pg. 57 "If we are right in assuming that this refers to the rapture, then one naturally expects it to be addressed in the text that follows... Here we find the contrast between "you" and "them."... We have here a clear parallel to 1 Thess. 5.9, "For God did not appoint us...to suffer wrath but to receive salvation."

11) pg. 51 "There is no explicit mention of the rapture in the book of Revelation."

12 pg. 55 "The 2 orientations to the Parousia are most easily seen in the Olivet Discourse. On the one hand, there is the orientation described in the 2nd part of the discourse, in which one does not know the day or the hour... This is the same orientation given to the disciples in Acts 1, where the Lord tells them, "It is not for you to know times or seasons.... The other orientation is that given in the 1st part of the Olivet Discourse and summarized in the illustration of the fig tree: "when you see all these things, you know that he is near... This is the orientation of watching the signs as the tribulation pattern unfolds."

13) pg. 66 "These 2 orientations are different and manifest 2 different forms of "imminency." The imminence of the rapture is due to the lack of any signs by which its proximity may be determined. It may be near or far. The time is unknown. It will occur unexpectedly. It could happen at any moment for those who will form the company that Christ will bring with him when he descends to the earth at the end of the day of the Lord to begin his millennial reign. This is the imminency that pretribulationism has traditionally advocated when describing the rapture."

This problem of separating "Tribulation Saints" from the present Church is compounded by its several contradictions. Not only do Tribulation Saints apparently suffer "God's Wrath" when Blaising indicates Christians shouldn't be there, but he also posits a Rapture that isn't even in the book of Revelation and imposes, arbitrarily, a pretribulational timing in the passage that mentions the Rapture (1 Thes 4).

Saints in the Tribulation are then determined, by Blaising, to not be Spirit-Baptized Christians, simply because he expects that the Church, together with the Holy Spirit, has been removed to heaven. And it is somehow thought that these Tribulation Saints, who are Jewish, must somehow come to faith without the Church being present so that they can enter into the Millennial age as mortals!

14) pg. 68 "The problem is, of course, that the more proximate the rapture is to the judgment of mortals, the fewer if any believers there will be to be admitted as mortals into the kingdom. Postribulationism obviously has the greatest difficulty with this problem."

15) pg. 69 "The church, as a previously unrevealed heavenly program, comes into existence as a parenthesis within the earthly program of God's purpose for Israel.. This parenthesis must be closed for the earthly program to resume... Daniel's chronology of the 70 7s, having been interrupted by the church, would resume... The church by definition cannot be present when Daniel's "earthly" chronology resumes. The church cannot suffer "wrath," because it cannot by definition be present in the time of tribulation wrath."

15) pg. 70 "It logically follows, then, that those who come to faith during the tribulation period are not part of the churches as the church is defined universally to be those united to Christ by the baptism of the Holy Spirit... In accordance with this, dispensationalists have typically identified the restrainer in 2.6-7 as the Holy Spirit in his mode of indwelling the church."

I cannot buy into this Dispensational distinction between the Church of the present age and the so-called "Tribulation Church!" And I can't buy into some notion of an age-long "imminency" inspired by historical events that indicate Christ could come "at any time."

No, the true "Great Tribulation" is an event that must precede the Rapture, which is the Jewish Diaspora of the present age, along with the universal preaching of the Gospel. Furthermore, we are not only not taught a Pretrib Rapture in 1 Thes 4 or in the book of Revelation, but we are in fact taught an explicit Postribulational Coming of Christ, terminating the age of Jewish Tribulation, ending the Antichristian persecution of the Church, and establishing God's Kingdom in a single day.

The "Rapture," in my view, is more descriptive of the event of our glorification and resurrection, than a name for the event itself. It takes place when we are caught up to heaven, and the "event" of the Rapture actually assumes the form of a glorified, resurrected Church appearing at the end of the age of tribulation in the book of Revelation and elsewhere in the Bible.

Thanks for slogging through this conflicted material!
 
Aug 22, 2024
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Why is your brand of Christianity "rudeness?" It's more important that you learn true Christianity than debate various Christian disagreements.
What part of that post is rude???
if that post you are addressing is supposedly rude, then what is it when you are actually calling me "non christian" , in branding my Christianity as different that your superior Christianity????
What is " my brand of Christianity"????.
IOW you just hit below the belt, asserting I am lost.
You really got that subliminal attacking your brother thingy down pat huh?

Any pushback against postribbers seems to hurt their feelings.
 
Aug 22, 2024
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Matt 24.29 Immediately after the distress of those days
‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.


I mean no offence to my brothers who are Dispensational and Pretribulational, because that is what I once was, as well, and that is the position of my church. But I have to advance what I believe--not what others believe.

So respectfully, I do not see an imminent Rapture here, ie belief that Christ could come "at any time." I do not see Jesus calling upon us to expect him imminently, that we should continually expect that he can come at any moment.

Rather, I see here Jesus put our gaze on a future event that will end the present age, when he will come again to gather up, through his angels, his people who have been waiting for him and living for him. We are called to look for him, and in this way curb our ungodly ways and determine to live godly lives in expectation that he will judge the whole world by his righteousness.

Our anticipation of his coming, therefore, determines how we live. And this is to be the kind of expectation we are to have, even as we await his coming to terminate the present ungodly age.

It is said that in the above reference there is no evidence of a "Rapture" event. Well, that may be because the Bible does not refer to Christ's Coming, to gather his saints, as a "Rapture." Rather, it is here referred to as a gathering by angels at the sound of a trumpet.

On the other hand, Paul describes this event as a "Rapture," not calling the event that name, but describing it as such. When we are gathered, we do not rise of our own accord, but are rather, "seized" by angels, to deliver us by the powers of heaven, and not by our own strength or ability.

So we may call it a "Rapture" if we like because that is how it is so described. But the event is called, biblically, as a gathering of saints, when the Son of Man returns from heaven with the clouds.

And where does this teaching come from? It comes from Daniel 7, where the Son of Man is said to have conferred with God his Father in heaven, receiving the mandate that will destroy the Antichrist and establish God's Kingdom on earth. In that place we are told that the Son of Man will come to earth, defeat the Little Horn, and deliver the saints from his abuses. In my view this is not an imminent event to be expected, but rather, the ultimate result of our waiting for it.

So how are we to relate this "gathering of the saints" to what Paul described as a "Rapture" in 1 Thes 4? At the time Jesus said this he was still under the Law and addressing only Israel. The "saints" he addressed at that time were Jewish believers, and not the international Church, though later this lesson can be applied to us all.

So Jesus was describing the future history of Israel, as only a remnant would be saved, and the many would be scattered across the earth in the Jewish Diaspora. Israel's national salvation would take place only after the return of the Son of Man.

And so, Jesus described this ultimate salvation of the nation addressing the Jewish saints of his time, while they were sitll under the Law. And now, we can apply this to all Christians, which is precisely what Paul did in 1 Thess 4.

When the Son of Man returns from heaven, we are gathered up to heaven by the angels of heaven. And we do so because we must do what Christ did when he said, "Do not hold me because I must return to my Father in heaven."

And so, we must, in order to be fully glorified, go to heaven to where the Son of Man is, to obtain from him our glorified bodies. In this way we may return with him in glory to establish his glorious Kingdom on the earth. And I believe this will happen immediately, in a moment of time.

So the mechanics of our leaving and returning with him is not the significant thing. What matters is that we be glorified with the Son of Man in order to enter into his rule together with him, so that the Kingdom may be established among mortal men on the earth.
Likewise I mean no offense to postribbers.
I was once in that doctrine

Then The word of God came in Acts 1, 1thess 4, Matt 25, Matt 24, Rev 14:14, Rev 19, the last supper dialogue, romans 9, 10, and 11., Daniel, Ruth, the 2 escape verses.

And understanding what the trib is and what the rapture is

Of which my former postrib position was bankrupt.
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
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Pacific NW USA
What part of that post is rude???
if that post you are addressing is supposedly rude, then what is it when you are actually calling me "non christian" , in branding my Christianity as different that your superior Christianity????
What is " my brand of Christianity"????.
IOW you just hit below the belt, asserting I am lost.
You really got that subliminal attacking your brother thingy down pat huh?

Any pushback against postribbers seems to hurt their feelings.
You must've completely misunderstood me, or thought I was someone else. I don't remember calling you "lost."

As for errors in our doctrine, I think they can be dangerous for others and for ourselves. But those of us who have held to wrong doctrines might include most, if not all, of us. It doesn't make us evil or lost.

We have to deal with errors in others and in ourselves. Otherwise, we would never improve on our condition. And we are all prone to mistakes.

I think we all know what an "amicable" spirit is? I think we can all do it, when so called upon. It's no doubt difficult for every one of us to be "amicable" when we're dealing with some difficult conversation, which is what happens when we're trying to put into words spiritual ideas.
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
972
276
63
Pacific NW USA
Likewise I mean no offense to postribbers.
I was once in that doctrine

Then The word of God came in Acts 1, 1thess 4, Matt 25, Matt 24, Rev 14:14, Rev 19, the last supper dialogue, romans 9, 10, and 11., Daniel, Ruth, the 2 escape verses.

And understanding what the trib is and what the rapture is

Of which my former postrib position was bankrupt.
I'm not saying your views are "bankrupt"--I'm just disagreeing with them. I'm happy to discuss each and every one of these passages, assuming we can disagree agreeably?
 

Webers.Home

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May 28, 2018
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FAQ: What is the purpose of the rapture?

REPLY: It's primarily an evacuation.

For example Rev 16:17-18 predicts a global earthquake so overwhelming on
the Richter scale that cities all over the world will collapse at once.


Something like 2,829 lost their lives when the World Trade Center was
demolished by a terrorist attack in 2001. Well that was only a few acres of
New York City. Just imagine the body count when all of Manhattan comes
down at once. along with other major cities like Los Angeles, San Francisco,
Mexico City, Paris, Moscow, Beijing, Tokyo, et al.


The carnage will be beyond belief; and that's just one of the many life
threatening events set to take place.
_
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
972
276
63
Pacific NW USA
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FAQ: What is the purpose of the rapture?

REPLY: It's primarily an evacuation.

For example Rev 16:17-18 predicts a global earthquake so overwhelming on
the Richter scale that cities all over the world will collapse at once.


Something like 2,829 lost their lives when the World Trade Center was
demolished by a terrorist attack in 2001. Well that was only a few acres of
New York City. Just imagine the body count when all of Manhattan comes
down at once. along with other major cities like Los Angeles, San Francisco,
Mexico City, Paris, Moscow, Beijing, Tokyo, et al.


The carnage will be beyond belief; and that's just one of the many life
threatening events set to take place.
_
Terrible earthquakes have taken place all through history, including volcanic explosions, deadly hurricanes, international wars, etc. They have never meant the end of the planet, and God has promised that the earth will be "forever."

What gives greatest intensity to these last plagues is the fact that this last generation is choosing clearly for Christ or for Antichrist. And much of the world at that time will choose to follow Antichrist. That means death will lead to eternal punishment.

So that's what makes these judgmentys so terrible, so final. It isn't that they're worse than all other judgments in history, but that they will bring such high numbers into immediate judgment, since the world has now become full of people.

This final punishment of the world is painted by Pretribulationists as so horrible that the Church must surely want to be "raptured" away from it, as if it is God's wrath upon the whole world, including believers. But believers have gone through such "punishments" before. Christians have unfortunately found themselves in many world wars that have brought devastation upon their own population, even though it wasn't God's wrath directed at them.

So I believe Christians will go through these difficult times, and I think the devastation will be quite severe. But I don't think it will be near as severe as the picture often painted, indicating everything falls apart.

The Scripture seems to portray it this way because the things the world has held onto, illicitly, is going to be taken away from them. The very elements will dissolve, indicating that the world will lose their houses, and even things that only melt. It will all be taken from them because they did not dedicate their works to God.
 

Webers.Home

Well-known member
May 28, 2018
5,896
1,084
113
Oregon
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"We who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in
the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." (1Thess 4:17)

I was a young paratrooper with the 101st Airborne Division during the
Cuban missile crises. My unit was fully armed and equipped, ready to be in
the air within one hour had President Kennedy given us the green light.

Anyway, my point is: I was always amazed how quiet and peaceful it is
outside an aircraft in the open atmosphere. (Well; except maybe for a few
guys around me whooping and yelling to each other; but other than that:
just silence. Some guys loved jumping but for me it was only duty and a way
to earn a little extra pay.)

Now; I've seen lots of photos of the earth from space but I have never seen
it from space with my own eyes. That'll be a treat. However; I expect the
ride up to be kinda scary because with a parachute, at least I had something
to hang on to, but in space I'll be walking on air (so to speak) with no visible
means of support.
_
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
972
276
63
Pacific NW USA
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"We who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in
the clouds to meet the Lord in the air." (1Thess 4:17)


I was a young paratrooper with the 101st Airborne Division during the
Cuban missile crises. My unit was fully armed and equipped, ready to be in
the air within one hour had President Kennedy given us the green light.


Anyway, my point is: I was always amazed how quiet and peaceful it is
outside an aircraft in the open atmosphere. (Well; except maybe for a few
guys around me whooping and yelling to each other; but other than that:
just silence. Some guys loved jumping but for me it was only duty and a way
to earn a little extra pay.)


Now; I've seen lots of photos of the earth from space but I have never seen
it from space with my own eyes. That'll be a treat. However; I expect the
ride up to be kinda scary because with a parachute, at least I had something
to hang on to, but in space I'll be walking on air (so to speak) with no visible
means of support.
_
Wow, you were part of that history of the Cuban invasion--amazing! We should've planned better for something like that!

My daughter went into the military jumping out of planes thing, but had to abandon that due to an injury. However, I have height fright, and do well going up a ladder, but terrible looking down.

That being said, I think we're very fortunate to be able to look down to the earth from space, via cameras. Nobody in history was able to do this! One day you might think the Rapture will suspend you in space perhaps?--I don't think that. I think it will be so quck you can't blink an eye and we'll be with the Lord, wherever he will be after establishing his Kingdom here on earth.

But some time ago we had a teacher in our church who taught out of Revelation, explaining the New Jerusalem in actual terms. I brought a photo showing earth from space via a satellie that is lower down than the New Jerusalem will be high.

I don't think I'll live on the upper stories of the New Jerusalem, looking down on earth from space. But I do think I'll be able to take elevators up there to enjoy the vistas. :)
 
Aug 22, 2024
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I'm not saying your views are "bankrupt"--I'm just disagreeing with them. I'm happy to discuss each and every one of these passages, assuming we can disagree agreeably?
The postrib position leaves no room for a separate focus of God to do what he declared in romans to gather the Jews.
Jesus said" Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the Gentiles, until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled."
That is the cut off point.
At that POINT God turns to the focus of the covenant Jews ( the subject of romans 9,10,11.)
The trib is framed in that concept.
( the purpose of the gt is to plow the Jews and bring them home. They will see rev14:14 (Jesus ) and know he is the Messiah they are , and have been waiting for.
Rev 14 is the Jewish Gathering.
So many,many things the postrib rapture theory COMPLETELY leaves out.
It is uncanny ,the NECESSARY OMISSIONS needed to believe in a postrib rapture.