The Rapture explained in two minutes

[GaryA]

Oh boy. This is too much for this one thread. Gary, I can't keep up with all your strange stuff AND the PreTribbers' strange stuff AND the Preterists' strange stuff. Ya'll need your own threads! Come on now.

"I can respect that..."

( I do believe that folks should follow the intent of the OP of the thread. )

If you want, I will back off and try to stick strictly to the OP.

I have already stated that I agree with your assessment of the order of events of Matthew 24:29-31.

Please, please, please...don't even try to explain to me why you don't believe in the 70th Week of Daniel.

I do believe in the 70th Week of Daniel.

I do believe it is past history.

It came to pass right after the 69th week...

 

[GaryA]

OOPS!

I have already stated that I agree with your assessment of the order of events of Matthew 24:29-31.

Matthew 24:15,29-31.

 

[MattTooFor]

I do believe in the 70th Week of Daniel.

It came to pass right after the 69th week...

OK so...you're just some variety of Preterist. I guess I can handle that.

 

[popeye]

I agree, Ephesians 2:3 "among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others."

We no longer are children of wrath by His grace. It's been so long since I've studied the rapture that I forgot what I believe, because I've been studying about God's nature and His love for us, while growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. It's been about thirty years since I studied end time prophecies. Jesus does say that as it was in the days of Noah, but in Luke 17 He adds Lot to the same story, it's not part of the Olivet Discourse, but it is about the nature of His coming.

Luke 17:28-32 "Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot—they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, 29 but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all—30 so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back. 32 Remember Lot's wife."

This always has made me think "remember Lot's wife", here's the context of both stories people are living life as though everything is normal, that God's judgement is a far off thing. Also wrapped up in those stories is God rescuing His people from His judgement on the wicked world, does this represent the rapture? If it does then Matthew 24 does talk about the rapture because, He mentions Noah in that chapter. Which would make it before the great tribulation, since it's God's wrath on the world. At the moment I can't remember what Scriptures that seem to lead to the idea of a post GT rapture, that's why I can't be dogmatic on either one, I've also seen Scripture that seems to say there's going to be a mid-trib. But, at that time I was not familiar with reading verses in context. I had a KJV which separates all verses from each other, so it made me think that they all stood alone, they don't.

I need to go over those Scriptures again since I've come to view the Olivet Discourse from the one I was taught, which was dispensational which I don't hold anymore after that study of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 and 17. Luke adds lots of clarification to Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

You are correct. Those examples are"prejudgment dynamics".

What postribs confuse with post trib return is that they work diligently to incorporate the rapture into the second coming.

There are no post trib rapture verses. He comes post trib alright....WITH his saints. Not FOR HIS SAINTS.

Note that ONLY the Jews are sealed against the locust plague. Jesus says to hurt all humanoids EXCEPT the 144 k.

......because all believers are absent.

 

[Johnny_B]

You're not even close. Apparently you didn't even read my long and carefully-composed post to you into which I put considerable effort. Oh well. Here again is what I said on the subject of whether or not Peter, James and John would live to see these events which Jesus described to them:
------

Well, if you can quit "yelling" at me long enough to settle down, you will notice that ONCE AGAIN, I had already described my beliefs in careful detail...not only in the post I had directed to you...but numerous times throughout this thread...although, perhaps you should be forgiven for not reading through 12 pages of a thread.

Here again, are my beliefs on the subject:

There it is. That is EXACTLY what I believe. I believe EXACTLY what Jesus said to Peter,James and John in answer to their questions about the end times: That there would be [1] the Abomination, followed by [2] the Great Tribulation, followed by [3] the Gathering.

OK. So? What are you saying? That Jesus contradicts Himself? - First telling the disciples to look for the end of the age...then (according to your erroneous interpretation) that they won't see the end of the age?

First of all, Jesus did not know either way. He clarifies that with His comment "no one knows the day or hour". When He makes the statement about "longing"...He isn't contradicting Himself. He is saying (if you look at the context and compare with the 2 other versions of the Olivet Discourse) that people will be so desirous to see the Lord's return, it will lead to them being seduced into deception - "do not go running after them".

I have no real idea what you're talking about. I have been explaining myself blue for thirteen pages of this thread. You're just jumping in here. And telling me to quit discussing my chosen topic for a thread I started?? Why? Why would I do that? It's a subject that is of interest to me. (??)

Well, again...you're just now jumping in here but...OK, let me re-state:

Peter, James and John are told by Jesus that the believers will be "gathered"/raptured just moments after the appearance of great cosmic signs.

By the same token, the Scriptures elsewhere clarify that the time of God's wrath does not begin until the appearance of these cosmic signs.

If you look carefully at the Olivet Discourse, the "gathering" occurs just moments after these cataclysmic "cosmic signs" make their appearance:

Matthew 24:29-31 -- "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky.

THEN notice Joel 2:31 -- "The sun will be turned into darkness and the moon into blood BEFORE the great and awesome day of the Lord comes."

You see that?

The great cosmic signs explode across the planet...the believers are "immediately" gathered...and ONLY THEN does God's wrath commence.

This is further confirmed in Rev 6: 12,13,16,17 -- "

I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; and the stars of the sky fell to the earth...and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; for the great day of their wrath has come...".
-----

First there is the Abomination, followed by the Great Tribulation, followed by the Gathering (rapture)...followed by the day of the Lord...the wrath of God. Believers are not subjected to the Day of the Lord.

Matt yelling is all caps, I'm not yelling, your just very defensive. Your 1, 2 and 3 left some parts out verse 30 says then the sign of the Son of Man will appear, after the earth mourns, are you saying the earth mourned when Jerusalem was destroyed?

No, Jesus didn't contradict Himself, so you must be missing something because that's what Jesus said. Here's what you are missing, Luke 21:21-24 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolationhas come near.21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those whoare inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it,22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written.23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people.24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

The time of the Gentiles has not been fulfilled yet. Also in the no one knows the hour of His coming, it has the story of Noah and Luke 21 adds Lot to the same example, both of them were taken out before God's earth came to judge the wicked.

Before you have your mind made up on Matthew 24-25, because the end of 25 answers the third question the disciples asked. Read Luke 21 and 17, 17:22-37 "And he said to the disciples, “The days are coming when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.23 And they will say to you, ‘Look,there!’ or ‘Look, here!’ Do not go out or follow them.24 For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day.25 But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.26 Just as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be in the days of the Son of Man.27 They were eating and drinking and marrying and being given in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.28 Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot—they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building,29 but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all—30 so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed.31 On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and like wise let the one who is in the field not turn back. 32 Remember Lot's wife.33 Whoever seeks to preserve his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will keep it.34 I tell you, in that night there will be two in one bed. One will be taken and the other left.35 There will be two women grinding together. One will be taken and the other left.” 37 And they said to him, “Where, Lord?” He said to them, “Where the corpse is, there to vultures will gather.”

You can see where the Olivet Discourse and this talk line up and where it fills in what Matthew left out. Also if you are looking for the Arch of Titus, read the Adam Clake commentaries, he has it in the comments on the Olivet Discourse.

 

[MattTooFor]

No, Jesus didn't contradict Himself, so you must be missing something because that's what Jesus said.

I really have no solid idea of what you're trying to say.

The simple fact is...Jesus told Peter, James and John to look for...NOT a mythical pre-70th Week "rapture" event...no, He told them to look for the Abomination of Desolation (etc.).

GAME OVER for PreTrib doctrine. It is a false doctrine.

There is no rebuttal to that. There is no rebuttal to the Bible. You can't contradict the Scriptures. Plain and simple.

Along with Peter, James and John, I believe what Jesus said. THAT is my belief.

 

[Dan_473]

I agree, Ephesians 2:3 "among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others."

We no longer are children of wrath by His grace. It's been so long since I've studied the rapture that I forgot what I believe, because I've been studying about God's nature and His love for us, while growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. It's been about thirty years since I studied end time prophecies. Jesus does say that as it was in the days of Noah, but in Luke 17 He adds Lot to the same story, it's not part of the Olivet Discourse, but it is about the nature of His coming.

Luke 17:28-32 "Likewise, just as it was in the days of Lot—they were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building, 29 but on the day when Lot went out from Sodom, fire and sulfur rained from heaven and destroyed them all—30 so will it be on the day when the Son of Man is revealed. 31 On that day, let the one who is on the housetop, with his goods in the house, not come down to take them away, and likewise let the one who is in the field not turn back. 32 Remember Lot's wife."

This always has made me think "remember Lot's wife", here's the context of both stories people are living life as though everything is normal, that God's judgement is a far off thing. Also wrapped up in those stories is God rescuing His people from His judgement on the wicked world, does this represent the rapture? If it does then Matthew 24 does talk about the rapture because, He mentions Noah in that chapter. Which would make it before the great tribulation, since it's God's wrath on the world. At the moment I can't remember what Scriptures that seem to lead to the idea of a post GT rapture, that's why I can't be dogmatic on either one, I've also seen Scripture that seems to say there's going to be a mid-trib. But, at that time I was not familiar with reading verses in context. I had a KJV which separates all verses from each other, so it made me think that they all stood alone, they don't.

I need to go over those Scriptures again since I've come to view the Olivet Discourse from the one I was taught, which was dispensational which I don't hold anymore after that study of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 and 17. Luke adds lots of clarification to Matthew 24 and Mark 13.

yes, I agree with, and experienced things like what you wrote here

"We no longer are children of wrath by His grace."

"It's been so long since I've studied the rapture that I forgot what I believe, because I've been studying about God's nature and His love for us, while growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. It's been about thirty years since I studied end time prophecies."

"At the moment I can't remember what Scriptures that seem to lead to the idea of a post GT rapture, that's why I can't be dogmatic on either one, I've also seen Scripture that seems to say there's going to be a mid-trib. But, at that time I was not familiar with reading verses in context."

 

[popeye]

yes, I agree with, and experienced things like what you wrote here

"We no longer are children of wrath by His grace."

"It's been so long since I've studied the rapture that I forgot what I believe, because I've been studying about God's nature and His love for us, while growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ. It's been about thirty years since I studied end time prophecies."

"At the moment I can't remember what Scriptures that seem to lead to the idea of a post GT rapture, that's why I can't be dogmatic on either one, I've also seen Scripture that seems to say there's going to be a mid-trib. But, at that time I was not familiar with reading verses in context."

Same here.
I've never found any post trib rapture verses

 

[GaryA]

OK so...you're just some variety of Preterist. I guess I can handle that.

I don't really consider myself to be a preterist. I guess some people consider a person to be a preterist if they believe that even-one-little-thing in Olivet Discourse prophecy or Revelation prophecy has been fulfilled?

I believe that some has and some has not [ yet ].

 

[GaryA]

What postribs confuse with post trib return is that they work diligently to incorporate the rapture into the second coming.

It is the 'pre-trib' folks who work diligently to remove the rapture from the Second Coming - into a separate 'event'.

He comes post trib alright....WITH his saints. Not FOR HIS SAINTS.

He comes WITH the SOULS of His saints FOR the BODIES of His saints.

What do you think the rapture is all about?

Note that ONLY the Jews are sealed against the locust plague. Jesus says to hurt all humanoids EXCEPT the 144 k.

......because all believers are absent.

Because they have been killed during the Great Tribulation - for not worshipping the beast.

 

[GaryA]

Your 1, 2 and 3 left some parts out verse 30 says then the sign of the Son of Man will appear, after the earth mourns, are you saying the earth mourned when Jerusalem was destroyed?

You do realize - don't you - that Matt believes those things ( 1, 2, and 3 ) to be all future events?

His point is based on the order of those events. And, about that, he is absolutely correct:

1. Abomination of Desolation
2. Great Tribulation
3. Rapture

 

[GaryA]

The time of the Gentiles has not been fulfilled yet.

But, you would agree that we are IN the "times of the Gentiles" ( Luke 21:24 ) NOW - right?

 

[Johnny_B]

This is the longest two minutes I ever experienced LOL, at the same time I've learned a few things and reidentified some of my beliefs.

 

[MattTooFor]

Because they have been killed during the Great Tribulation - for not worshipping the beast

If all the believers have been "killed"...then who is left to be "gathered" at the end of the Great Tribulation?

 

[MattTooFor]

This is the longest two minutes I ever experienced LOL, at the same time I've learned a few things and reidentified some of my beliefs.

I sure hope you're re-thinking PreTrib!

 

[MattTooFor]

I don't really consider myself to be a preterist. I guess some people consider a person to be a preterist if they believe that even-one-little-thing in Olivet Discourse prophecy or Revelation prophecy has been fulfilled?

The entire 70th Week of Daniel isn't "one little thing".

 

[MattTooFor]

Same here.
I've never found any post trib rapture verses

What in the world do you think Matthew 24 is talking abut when it says the believers are gathered from all over earth and all across the "heavens" (i.e. the entire universe)?

It certainly isn't describing the end of the seven years because Jesus says neither He nor anyone else knows the "day or hour" of this event...which, in turn, indicates it could NOT be the end of 1260 days because Jesus (and anyone else in those days) WOULD know the EXACT day.

You've botched your interpretation.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I sure hope you're re-thinking PreTrib!

And I sure hope that you will rethink your belief that the Lord would put his church through his wrath. Find me one place where the church is mentioned from Revelation 4 onward. The next time it is mentioned is figuratively as the bride, which is shown to already be in heaven at the Wedding of the Lamb (Rev.19:4-6). And the next place that the actual word Ekklesia/Church is found is in Revelation 22:16, which is outside of the narrative.

Those who trust in the Lord's promise are looking for His imminent return to rescue us from his coming wrath. You and others on the other hand, would have to watch for all of the events of Matt.24, including the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments before the Lord could come for his church, which would not be an imminent return at all.

In addition, scripture clearly demonstrates that the church, those who will have already been resurrected and caught up, are already in heaven and will be following the Lord out of heaven riding on those white horses (Revelation 19:14) wearing their white and clean linen that they will have received in Revelation 19:6-8.

By looking forward to the Lord gathering the church after his wrath, you are not truly believing that the Lord took upon himself the wrath that all believers deserve and because He did, we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath.

Your on-going problem is that you leave out all of the other exegetical information and that for the purpose of supporting your adopted teaching.

 

[MattTooFor]

There are no post trib rapture verses. He comes post trib alright....WITH his saints. Not FOR HIS SAINTS.

Once again, you've got the wrong passage of Scripture. Matthew 24 is NOT describing the end of the seven years because THAT would mean He (Jesus) and everyone else in those days would know the EXACT day of His return.

And that can't be because Jesus specifically indicates "no one knows the day or hour". You're using the wrong passage of Scripture.

In any case, none of your arguments matter anyway...because Jesus told Peter, James and John the first event to look for was the Abomination of Desolation...NOT a mythical "PreTrib" rapture which doesn't have a single passage in the Bible.

So...even if for the sake of argument we concede to you the Matthew 24 passage is describing an event at the very end of the seven years and NOT an event some time before that...it matters not. PreTrib is already D.O.A. the very moment Jesus tells Peter, James and John they need to expect to enter into the events deep INSIDE the 70th Week.

Obviously, they believed Jesus. And I absolutely want to believe the same thing those disciples believed. It's the only correct view.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Once again, you've got the wrong passage of Scripture. Matthew 24 is NOT describing the end of the seven years because THAT would mean He (Jesus) and everyone else in those days would know the EXACT day of His return.

That is where you make your mistake! In Matt.24:15, Jesus quotes Dan.9:27 regarding the abomination being set up, which marks the middle of the seven years. From Matt.24:15 to Matt.24:29-31 is covering that entire last 3 1/2 years when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

And you are correct when you say "THAT would mean He (Jesus) and everyone else in those days would know the EXACT day of His return," which is why the church is not gathered at that time, but will have been gathered seven years prior. Those whom the angels gather in Matt.24:31, are living people still in their mortal bodies who will have made it through the entire seven years until Christ returns to end the age. Those who survive will be the great tribulation saints who will have not have been killed as well as the woman/Israel, who will have been cared for out in that place prepared for them by God.