The rapture? The comimg of Christ.

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Musicmaster

Well-known member
Feb 8, 2021
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It will ALSO be like THIS:

--Daniel 7:22 [PARALLEL WORDING to that of Rev20:4a] - "Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom." [see also vv.25,27];


--Daniel 12:12 [PARALLEL to about 8 other "BLESSED" passages] "BLESSED is he that WAITETH, and COMETH TO the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days." [This "BLESSED" corresponds with Rev19:9's "BLESSED" and Matt24:46[,42-51] / Lk12:37,43[,36-48]'s "BLESSED" and Matt25:34[,31-46]'s [ABOUT "GENTILES / those of the NATIONS"] "BLESSED"... and several other passages...]... about "still-living" saints (at the time of His Second Coming to the earth) who will ENTER the promised and prophesied earthly MK age IN THEIR MORTAL BODIES (Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 = same time-slot... AFTER the Trib, same!) ;


--Matt24:13 [and parallel] "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (thus entering the MK age ^ as in the above);


--Rev19:15b "... and He SHALL [future tense to this point in the chronology] RULE / SHEPHERD them [the nations] with a rod / sceptre [Heb1:8b] of iron [/righteousness and strength]" (the ONLY ONES of the "nations" permitted ENTRANCE INTO the MK age, are the "believers / saints" [those having come to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (i.e. IN the TRIB yrs)]--NO "UNbelievers" will be granted ENTRANCE INTO the MK age);


--etc etc...





So based on all of the above passages (and many more), I remain unconvinced of your conclusion
Are you saying that every occurrence of the term "saints" refers to the Church...the body of Christ? The body of Christ will not live in the New Jerusalem. We will dwell in the Heavenlies, as scripture declares.

MM
 
Oct 23, 2022
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^ Allow me to highlight just one of the passages I referenced in the above post ^ :

Luk 12:36 [parallel Matt24:42-51 in His Olivet Discourse] -
And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
Luk 12:37
Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat [G347 (see also Mt8:11 and parallel)], and will come forth and serve them.







These "BLESSED" do not EVER "lift off" the earth (as this is NOT a "rapture" CONTEXT, but is His "Second Coming TO THE EARTH, *FOR* the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age--They will ENTER IT [the MK age] in their "mortal bodies" [never having lifted off the earth! They are located THERE upon His "RETURN" to the earth! (see also Lk19:12,15,17,19--SAME LOCATION! earth!)])
Translation to the word of return not completely self evident;
to return
ἀναλύσῃ (analysē)
Verb - Aorist Subjunctive Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 360: To unloose, unloose for departure, depart, return. From ana and luo; to break up, i.e. Depart.

(Biblehub.com)
 
Aug 22, 2024
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^ I'm a "pre-tribber" who sees Jesus' second ascension (the one in Acts 1) to be "in like manner AS YE HAVE SEEN" (i.e. "VISIBLE") to be how He will "RETURN" to the earth (when "every eye shall SEE Him"); whereas His EARLIER ascension (some "40 days" earlier, ON "FIRSTFRUIT" / His Resurrection Day) to be like "our Rapture"... it was only "TOLD" to MM (Jn20:17) but no one visibly saw Him "traveling-up to Heaven" like in the Acts 1 event.






[these TWO events ^ SEPARATED BY "40 days"... and remember, "40" = "TRIAL, etc"]
Like manner.
Peacetime
Commerce
Normal life.
The other coming on horses with judgement and war is tge second coming.

The ascension in Acts 1 is compared by the Angels to the pretrib rapture.
Like manner
Has to be the pretrib rapture.
 
Oct 23, 2022
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Translation to the word of return not completely self evident;
to return
ἀναλύσῃ (analysē)
Verb - Aorist Subjunctive Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 360: To unloose, unloose for departure, depart, return. From ana and luo; to break up, i.e. Depart.

(Biblehub.com)

I mean to say in this verse Jesus interrupts the feast to come and knock at doors.. again, i find that immensely interesting.
And then to think who is He talking to in this verse? He is talking to those that follow Him, you and me!
We are all in the same location at this point in the story.
I personally do not believe in a pre or mid trib. But I try to read, also this thread, without previous convictions that I am looking to support (and yes, also for me that's not always easy).
Just like God guides and teaches us, it is never in the manner we expect or pursue, the human way (proof, cause and effect in our linear way of thinking, and proud way). But there is a lot to learn though! God has not given us secret codes, words and formulas to calculate coming events by. To me that is really coming close to divination;)
 
Oct 23, 2022
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I mean to say in this verse Jesus interrupts the feast to come and knock at doors.. again, i find that immensely interesting.
And then to think who is He talking to in this verse? He is talking to those that follow Him, you and me!
We are all in the same location at this point in the story.
I personally do not believe in a pre or mid trib. But I try to read, also this thread, without previous convictions that I am looking to support (and yes, also for me that's not always easy).
Just like God guides and teaches us, it is never in the manner we expect or pursue, the human way (proof, cause and effect in our linear way of thinking, and proud way). But there is a lot to learn though! God has not given us secret codes, words and formulas to calculate coming events by. To me that is really coming close to divination;)
Pity I can't seem to edit,
*starting this post I ought to say: -what I understand is- Jesus interrupts the feast to come knock at our doors
*God has not given us secret codes, words etc. to calculate -and understand- coming events by
 
Aug 3, 2018
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TheDivineWatermark said:
It will ALSO be like THIS:

--Daniel 7:22 [PARALLEL WORDING to that of Rev20:4a] - "Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom." [see also vv.25,27];


--Daniel 12:12 [PARALLEL to about 8 other "BLESSED" passages] "BLESSED is he that WAITETH, and COMETH TO the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days." [This "BLESSED" corresponds with Rev19:9's "BLESSED" and Matt24:46[,42-51] / Lk12:37,43[,36-48]'s "BLESSED" and Matt25:34[,31-46]'s [ABOUT "GENTILES / those of the NATIONS"] "BLESSED"... and several other passages...]... about "still-living" saints (at the time of His Second Coming to the earth) who will ENTER the promised and prophesied earthly MK age IN THEIR MORTAL BODIES (Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 = same time-slot... AFTER the Trib, same!) ;


--Matt24:13 [and parallel] "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (thus entering the MK age ^ as in the above);


--Rev19:15b "... and He SHALL [future tense to this point in the chronology] RULE / SHEPHERD them [the nations] with a rod / sceptre [Heb1:8b] of iron [/righteousness and strength]" (the ONLY ONES of the "nations" permitted ENTRANCE INTO the MK age, are the "believers / saints" [those having come to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (i.e. IN the TRIB yrs)]--NO "UNbelievers" will be granted ENTRANCE INTO the MK age);


--etc etc...





So based on all of the above passages (and many more), I remain unconvinced of your conclusion
Are you saying that every occurrence of the term "saints" refers to the Church...the body of Christ?
No. I've not made that point whatsoever.


[There WILL be people coming to faith in Christ when they find themselves IN the Tribulation Period. They are called "saints" also; just as, at times, members of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (that's us) are also called "saints"]



____________

BTW,

neither do I make the points (as many attempt to do), that:

--every usage of the word "ekklesia" refers ONLY EVER TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY". Um, NO!;


--every usage of the word "elect" refers ONLY EVER TO "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY". Um, NO!







[I *AM* however, saying that "CONTEXT" matters]
 
Aug 3, 2018
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Translation to the word of return not completely self evident;
to return
ἀναλύσῃ (analysē)
Verb - Aorist Subjunctive Active - 3rd Person Singular
Strong's 360: To unloose, unloose for departure, depart, return. From ana and luo; to break up, i.e. Depart.

(Biblehub.com)
I wouldn't say that the word "RETURN" alone, informs anything in particular, but coupled WITH THE REST OF THE CONTEXT, where it says "when he will RETURN FROM THE WEDDING" (THEN says that "the MEAL [G347]" comes after that), that this CORRESPONDS with both Rev19:7 / Rev19:9 [THIS SEQUENCE ALSO] and other related passages.


[the "Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]" of Rev19:7 is NOT the INVITED "GUESTS" [PLURAL] that Rev19:9 speaks of]
 
Aug 3, 2018
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"IN LIKE MANNER as ye have SEEN HIM traveling up to Heaven" (where the words "IN LIKE MANNER as" refers ONLY to HIM and HOW He will "SO COME" (and that they "SEE" it)... It speaks nothing of the "surrounding circumstances," either way.)




____________

I think it was another thread, where you'd asked (something like): PROVE that the "taken and left" verses speak to His Second Coming TO THE EARTH (and NOT to "our Rapture" point in time)... Well, where it says, "and THEY KNEW NOT UNTIL the flood came and took THEM all away"... the "THEY / THEM" is NOT speaking of "NOAH [and crew]". NOAH "knew" and PREPARED AHEAD OF IT, by building the ark as instructed, and he also "knew" 7 days BEFORE the floods came (see Gen7:4).

It was the ones who PERISHED IN THE FLOOD who the text refers to by saying "and THEY knew not UNTIL the flood came, and took THEM all away" (... they had DISREGARDED God's word via Noah! and thus PERISHED in the flood)


In the Lk17 passage, vv.27,29 add this fact, "and destroyed ALL" (THAT is NOT what takes place following "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" [to those (unbelievers) left on the earth for the Trib yrs]. NO! Many of them will be coming to faith IN / DURING / WITHIN the Trib yrs!)
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
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[There WILL be people coming to faith in Christ when they find themselves IN the Tribulation Period. /QUOTE]

This so called coming to faith in the trib is not found anywhere in the bible though. The truth is that Christians are here for the trib, and they are mentioned in basically every passage that discusses the trib timeframe. Never does the bible speak of most or all real Christians leaving suddenly then unbelievers becoming Christians within the trib timeframe.
 

BOY

Active member
Oct 11, 2024
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I don't think there will be a 7 year agreement. There will be an agreement that lasts seven years. because Jesus comes back after the seven years and breaks it.
The covenant is made. and Jesus comes back So the covenant only lasts seven years.

The more I think about you the. more it rings true.

He confirm the Covenant with many And it only lasts 7 years. because Jesus comes back and gets us

What does everybody think?

First, do you understand what I'm saying or what I'm getting at

He confirms the covenant and. it only lasts one week. ( 7 years.) because Jesus comes back and collects us.
I think if you're expecting to see a peace deal about seven years long, I think. you're going to be mistaken or surprised


And that will be so good for the pre-tribulation believe in Christians. They won't believe it. because it wasn't for 7 years.
 
Aug 3, 2018
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This so called coming to faith in the trib is not found anywhere in the bible though. The truth is that Christians are here for the trib, and they are mentioned in basically every passage that discusses the trib timeframe. Never does the bible speak of most or all real Christians leaving suddenly then unbelievers becoming Christians within the trib timeframe.
--in Matthew 24:14 / 26:13, the "message" that WILL BE going forth (IN / DURING / WITHIN the Trib years; that is, FOLLOWING "our Rapture") especially IN THE FIRST HALF (that you seem to have "misplaced" [mislocated]) has the RESULTS of this [msg] SHOWN in Revelation 7:9[,14]... LET the readers COMPARE the wording in both Matt24:14 and Rev7:9; They will be being "INVITED TO" the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age (and not "BY us"--WE will not be present on the earth during that time period);


--Paul (in 2Th chpts 1 & 2--in bracketed BOOKENDS, so to speak), Paul is CONTRASTING the TWO OPPOSITE "beliefs" people WILL BE coming to IN / DURING / WITHIN the Tribulation Period; I've pointed out how the phrases "the Day of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY" whenever they are used in the SAME CONTEXTS (as they are here also), they ALWAYS refer to the SAME TIME PERIOD;
And I've pointed out how the "IN FLAMING FIRE" of 2Th1:8 and context, refers to A TIME PERIOD (not merely a split second moment, at His Second Coming to the earth), being PARALLEL WORDING to that used in Lam2:3-4 (in the context of WRATH words, there--And note its context / REASONS, in Lam); Likewise, 2Th2:7b-8a is PARALLEL LANGUAGE to that used in Lam2:3... (so many other points I've made in numerous past threads);


--Where Matt24:9 says, "...and ye shall be hated of ALL THE NATIONS," it is speaking of the believing remnant of Israel, who will (at that time) have COME TO FAITH IN CHRIST [IN THE TRIB]... and I've pointed out in past posts that "our Rapture" is a PRIMARY IMPETUS that turns Israel to come to faith in Christ... THEY will be AMONG THE *FIRST* to grasp "what has just happened"... it is is THEY who will be DOING the "INVITING TO" their promised AND PROPHESIED *EARTHLY* Millennial Kingdom age (aka "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER"... aka "the kingdom OF THE heavenS [on the earth]" which will COMMENCE upon His "RETURN" there, TO THE EARTH--"when he will RETURN FROM THE WEDDING" (as an ALREADY-WED "Bridegroom," not a "TO BE WED" one);





....so YES... Scripture speaks of it... ABUNDANTLY!!!

(the MIS-application of MANY passages, is what prevents one from SEEING ALL that the Scripture HAS TO SAY ABOUT this very thing!!)
 
Aug 3, 2018
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^ the ALREADY-AWARDED saints are shown UP IN HEAVEN, saying, "hast redeemed US to God BY THY BLOOD out-of EVERY..." (Rev5:9) *BEFORE* the FIRST SEAL will be opened by Christ, when He will "STAND to JUDGE" Rev5:6 (Isa3:13)... and the SEALS *ARE* "the beginning of birth PANGS" at the START of the 7-yr Tribulation Period which will thereafter unfold upon the earth (this MEANS that "Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11"--"the beginning of birth PANGS" are what FOLLOW "our Rapture").

So, YES THERE IS!
 

TMS

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Mar 21, 2015
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In the Lk17 passage, vv.27,29 add this fact, "and destroyed ALL" (THAT is NOT what takes place following "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" [to those (unbelievers) left on the earth for the Trib yrs]. NO! Many of them will be coming to faith IN / DURING / WITHIN the Trib yrs!)
Are you saying there will be a second chance?
If you miss the first chance, Don't worry you get a second chance to come to the faith. ????
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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Pre Trib rapture.
Please show me from the Bible without twisting any verses that Jesus will cause people to disappear before He returns in glory??.
Clear bible verses please.

Don't use Matt 24, Luke 17, because it proves the opposite.

Bible verses that say people will be secretly be raptured.. secretly disappear,
Years before Jesus returns.

I isn't in my Bible.
 
Oct 23, 2022
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I wouldn't say that the word "RETURN" alone, informs anything in particular, but coupled WITH THE REST OF THE CONTEXT, where it says "when he will RETURN FROM THE WEDDING" (THEN says that "the MEAL [G347]" comes after that), that this CORRESPONDS with both Rev19:7 / Rev19:9 [THIS SEQUENCE ALSO] and other related passages.


[the "Bride / Wife [SINGULAR]" of Rev19:7 is NOT the INVITED "GUESTS" [PLURAL] that Rev19:9 speaks of]
Ok, hope his servants will not be too busy bickering over scripture to open the door.
The sun is shining outside, I'm off and leave it to the scribes;)
 
Aug 3, 2018
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In the Lk17 passage, vv.27,29 add this fact, "and destroyed ALL" (THAT is NOT what takes place following "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" [to those (unbelievers) left on the earth for the Trib yrs]. NO! Many of them will be coming to faith IN / DURING / WITHIN the Trib yrs!)
Are you saying there will be a second chance?
If you miss the first chance, Don't worry you get a second chance to come to the faith. ????
If you've read carefully my posts, you would see what I wrote regarding this, where I'd put (under the second bullet point in my Post #292):

--Paul (in 2Th chpts 1 & 2--in bracketed BOOKENDS, so to speak), Paul is CONTRASTING the TWO OPPOSITE "beliefs" people WILL BE coming to IN / DURING / WITHIN the Tribulation Period; I've pointed out how the phrases "the Day of the Lord" and "IN THAT DAY" whenever they are used in the SAME CONTEXTS (as they are here also), they ALWAYS refer to the SAME TIME PERIOD;




So when you examine the texts I'm pointing out, here ^ ...

...ONE of those TWO OPPOSITE "beliefs" people will be coming to, IN the Trib yrs, is THIS (Paul says--of certain ones), "...God SHALL SEND to THEM strong delusion, SO THAT *THEY* should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI"... 2Th2:10-12 ("*BECAUSE*," it says, "they RECEIVED NOT the love of the truth that they might be saved"--These are ones who had hardened their hearts to the truth, and thus God hardens their hearts even further [LIKE what happened to Pharaoh, Ex8], in that, "God SHALL SEND TO THEM strong delusion, SO THAT they should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI" in the Trib yrs);


--however, it won't be the case that 100% of the unsaved people (having missed the rapture) will be sent this "strong delusion" by God; the ones that He won't be doing that to, are the ones who WON'T have hardened their hearts (as the others will have)--and GOD KNOWS which is which; Paul is showing the CONTRAST between these two OPPOSITE "beliefs" people WILL BE coming to, FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (when they find themselves IN the time-period we commonly call "the Tribulation Period"--the 7 years immediately preceding and LEADING UP TO His Second Coming TO THE EARTH Rev19);

There are numerous passages showing the saints who will exist on the earth at the time of His Second Coming TO THE EARTH (who never "lift off" the earth, but are PRESENT THERE when He RETURNS there);

...the ones "still-living" will ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies (as the only ones who will have the capacity to produce offspring / bear children... grandchildren and so forth...);

...the saints who DIE / are KILLED during the Trib years (the LAST "saints" to have DIED prior to the MK age commencing) will be "resurrected [which is biblically-defined as "to stand again" (on the earth)]"... FOR the earthly MK age--IOW, there will be NO "SAINTS" who will be MISSING, ALL will be PRESENT *FOR* the MK age... ALL "saints" (of ALL time periods) will be present there to enjoy it! (Mt8:11, etc... [OT saints... TRIB saints...]).

We, "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," will have returned to the earth "WITH [G4862--UNIONed-with] Him" (Rev19) and will be present there for "the wedding FEAST / SUPPER" (which IS the earthly MK age, or at least its INAUGURATION. I don't believe *we* will necessarily be "limited" to that sphere [during the MK age]). Whereas the "saints" who come to faith IN / DURING / WITHIN the Trib years, will be the INVITED "GUESTS [PLURAL]," etc... ("HAVING BEEN INVITED [perfect indicative, Rv19:9]" all throughout the TRIB yrs... BY the believing remnant of Israel, who will have ALSO come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture," and early on in the Trib yrs)






So, I wouldn't exactly call it "a second CHANCE".

Though some [many, actually] WILL BE coming to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (... certain OTHER ones will be sent "STRONG DELUSION" during that SAME TIME PERIOD / the Trib yrs).
 
Aug 22, 2024
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"IN LIKE MANNER as ye have SEEN HIM traveling up to Heaven" (where the words "IN LIKE MANNER as" refers ONLY to HIM and HOW He will "SO COME" (and that they "SEE" it)... It speaks nothing of the "surrounding circumstances," either way.)




____________

I think it was another thread, where you'd asked (something like): PROVE that the "taken and left" verses speak to His Second Coming TO THE EARTH (and NOT to "our Rapture" point in time)... Well, where it says, "and THEY KNEW NOT UNTIL the flood came and took THEM all away"... the "THEY / THEM" is NOT speaking of "NOAH [and crew]". NOAH "knew" and PREPARED AHEAD OF IT, by building the ark as instructed, and he also "knew" 7 days BEFORE the floods came (see Gen7:4).

It was the ones who PERISHED IN THE FLOOD who the text refers to by saying "and THEY knew not UNTIL the flood came, and took THEM all away" (... they had DISREGARDED God's word via Noah! and thus PERISHED in the flood)


In the Lk17 passage, vv.27,29 add this fact, "and destroyed ALL" (THAT is NOT what takes place following "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" [to those (unbelievers) left on the earth for the Trib yrs]. NO! Many of them will be coming to faith IN / DURING / WITHIN the Trib yrs!)
Never said that.
I am saying the taken/left is WHAT JESUS SAID...BEFORE THE FLOOD, ONE TAKEN/LEFT.
SO was Jesus confused?????
Did he consult your doctrine to correct his error?