The Rapture

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Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
7,359
395
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Brother Ahwatukee,

You say that the kingdom is removed in Rev 4:1-2. But there IS NO TRUMPET SOUNDED THERE.

Only a voice that sounds like a trumpet.
? The voice that sounds like a trumpet is God's clue which is referring to the last trumpet. The voice that sounds like a trumpet in Rev.4:1-2 is synonymous with "the trumpet of God" found in I Thes.4:16 where Paul is describing the resurrection and the living being changed and called up by that voice that sounds like a trumpet. That's why John hears a voice that sounds like a trumpet, because it is the trumpet call of God which takes place when the church is caught up.

You shouldn't be teaching these things because what you are teaching is false.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
106
63
? The voice that sounds like a trumpet is God's clue which is referring to the last trumpet. The voice that sounds like a trumpet in Rev.4:1-2 is synonymous with "the trumpet of God" found in I Thes.4:16 where Paul is describing the resurrection and the living being changed and called up by that voice that sounds like a trumpet. That's why John hears a voice that sounds like a trumpet, because it is the trumpet call of God which takes place when the church is caught up.

You shouldn't be teaching these things because what you are teaching is false.
Brother Ahwatukee,

You can't get much worse that teaching that there is a trumpet sounded in Rev 4:1-2, when there IS NO TRUMPET SOUNDED, Only a voice. But you say it is a trumpet when it clearly says that it is a voice ONLY, that sounds like a trumpet.

Plus there is NO RESUR/RAPT shown there. Only John is taken to be with Jesus.

You must accept this totally false teaching of pre-trib to begin with to make the pre-trib time line work.

Your whole time line is based on this false teaching that Rev 4:1-2 is the resur/rapt of the kingdom. Jesus doesn't come for the kingdom until Rev 11:15.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
106
63
? The voice that sounds like a trumpet is God's clue which is referring to the last trumpet.
Brother Ahwatukee,

The voice that sounds like a trumpet in Rev.4:1-2 is synonymous with "the trumpet of God"
This is an assumption on your part without verifying evidence.


found in I Thes.4:16 where Paul is describing the resurrection and the living being changed and called up by that voice
Yes the voice of the Archangel.

that sounds like a trumpet.
A false statement on your part, that is not what it says. It says "... and with the trump of God: ..." (KJV)

The voice of the Archangel "AND" the trump of God, 2 separate entities.

But the voice in Rev 4:1-2 only calls John, not the kingdom. The kingdom is called in Rev 11:15, where there is a trumpet AND voices Rev 11:12, 15, 19.


That's why John hears a voice that sounds like a trumpet, because it is the trumpet call of God which takes place when the church is caught up.
This is a contradiction. It can't be a voice that sounds like a trumpet, and be a literal trumpet. A voice and a trumpet are 2 different things.


You shouldn't be teaching these things because what you are teaching is false.
Time will tell my brother.

Looking at Israel restored to Jerusalem and them being surrounded by Iran, Russia, Syria, and the others makes me believe that the coming of Jesus for the kingdom will be sooner rather than later.

After Jerusalem falls, Jesus will come for His kingdom, just like it says in the 2W's and the 7th trumpet.

------

And what will you say when Jerusalem falls before your eyes? (soon)

Will you say, "This wasn't supposed to happen now, it is supposed to be mid-trib, or post trib. We are supposed to be resur/raptured for 3 1/2 years from when Jerusalem falls."

So then you will know that pre-trib was wrong, when you are still here, when Jerusalem falls.

And the Antichrist/beast to be revealed? You already know who that is, he has been here for the iron time period.

-----

There are things that are proven by scripture. There are things that are proven by reality.

I can only prove these things by scripture. The proof of these things in reality can only be done by God.

So again, I point to Israel restored to Jerusalem.

I point to Israel and Jerusalem surrounded by Iran (the kings of the east and powers/winds across the Euphrates River from Jerusalem) allied with Magog and the nations of the gentile world.

I must point out that the spirits of evil to destroy Jerusalem and Israel will soon reach the point of overwhelming power. (Israel is 1/2 the land as the Netherlands, tiny).

How long this present government will continue to support it's allies, and Israel, is ............Questionable. Did you think that this country would abandon all it's other allies except Israel? That Israel would not be abandoned, but all the other nations would be abandoned?

Israel will soon stand alone.

Then the end will come.

The end of the kingdom on earth. The end of Israel on this earth. The end of life on this planet.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
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The end of the kingdom on earth.
The kingdom is not even here yet. We are to pray for it to come. Christ will set it up after the trib.

The end of Israel on this earth.
Israel will have land in the millennial kingdom as described in Eze 47:13ff and 48. God swore with an uplifted hand that Abraham would get the land. That has not happened yet.

The end of life on this planet.
Not so:

1 Chr 16:
30) Tremble before him, all the earth! The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved.

Ps 104:
5) He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.

Ps 37:
11) But the meek will inherit the land and enjoy great peace.

Mat 5:
5) Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

Your eschatology is flawed.
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
106
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The kingdom is not even here yet.
Brother shrume.

Rev 1:9, John says that he is a, "...companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom....".

Col 4:11, Paul calls Barnabas and Justus his fellow workers unto the kingdom.


We are to pray for it to come.
The kingdom of salvation, through the indwelling (Gift Acts 2:38) of the Holy Spirit, through Israel came on Pentecost. The confusion is about the different phases of the kingdom.

Jesus lived, died, and resurrected before the kingdom came.

Pentecost, the kingdom on earth came. It is the Father's kingdom and always will be, but the Father has given the kingdom to Jesus until all enemies have been defeated. 1 Cor 15:23-28, the last enemy is death Rev 20:14-15. So until death is destroyed the kingdom belongs to Jesus, having received all power in heaven and earth Matt 28:18.

After death is destroyed Rev 20:14-15, the finished kingdom is delivered up to the Father and Jesus submits to the Father, to be All in All.

When Jesus prayed "Thy kingdom come", it was pointing to the time after death is destroyed when the kingdom was delivered up to the Father in the new heavens and earth, the Father's kingdom, "Thy kingdom come".


Christ will set it up after the trib.
Jesus said in Lk 17:20-21, that when the kingdom came that is would not be observable, as in a material land mass with borders.

And that the kingdom would be within us.

When does this happen? That the kingdom comes without being observable? It can't be after the trib, according to your time line, because everybody would see Jesus coming with the kingdom, to a land mass with physical borders, and the kingdom then would not be within us.


Israel will have land in the millennial kingdom as described in Eze 47:13ff and 48. God swore with an uplifted hand that Abraham would get the land. That has not happened yet.
Ezek Chs 47-48.

Shrume, sorry, but it looks like we won't be seeing this land and city until we are dead and in eternity after death is destroyed.

Ezek 47:1-13, a description of the living waters of the Holy Spirit. See the parallel passage of Ezek 47:12 with Rev 22:1-2.

Ezek 47:13-23, Matt 18:36, Jesus said that His kingdom was not of this world or His servants would be fighting. But if this were literal, Christians would be fighting for salvation with literal swords and weapons, instead of the gospel sword of God's Word.

Will we change what Jesus said to something like, my kingdom is of this world?

And the OT priesthood and roll of the tribes are no longer in effect.

Ezek 48:1-35, The land mass division is not literal, the information is supposed to be in the divisions and in the order and symbolism of the numbers, which have been mostly lost over the ages.

But look at the parallel passage to Ezek 48:30-35, to Rev 21:12-13. See how the city in Rev that is revealed after death is destroyed, has the same features. This seems to show that the passages are describing the eternal heavenly, after death, Jerusalem.



Not so:

1 Chr 16:
30) Tremble before him, all the earth! The world is firmly established; it cannot be moved.

Ps 104:
5) He set the earth on its foundations; it can never be moved.
Well, our universe and planet are moving all the time. From the smallest of particles, to the entire universe. We all have earthquakes.

So does the planet move or not?


Ps 37:
11) But the meek will inherit the land and enjoy great peace.

Mat 5:
5) Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.
While this is true to a degree in our material world, I believe that Jesus is pointing to the new earth and eternal rest.


Your eschatology is flawed.
That's what they all say, in the beginning.

But as time goes by, and things are explained, then understanding comes, to those who really want to know.
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
6,255
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I don't remember seeing Jesus return or read about it in histories. He said when he returns the whole world would see it. Not just Jerusalem. So when did this happen and no one saw it happen? Upon what evidence do you make this assertion? Also according to Isaiah he will sit on the throne in Jerusalem. Where is He located in Jerusalem?
Of course you didn't see Jesus return. You are what, 71? Jesus returned in 70 AD. Don't think you were around to see it. His return was absolutely recorded in history by several writers of the day.

Josephus (A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian
"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).

“A supernatural apparition was seen, too amazing to be believed. What I am now to relate would, I imagine, be dismissed as imaginary, had this not been vouched for by eyewitnesses, then followed by subsequent disasters that deserved to be thus signalized. For before sunset chariots were seen in the air over the whole country, and armed battalions speeding through the clouds and encircling the cities.”

Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian
"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).

The return of Christ's presence was also recorded by an early church writer:

Eusebius of Caesarea (A.D. 325)
"For before the setting of the sun chariots and armed troops were seen throughout the whole region in mid-air, wheeling through the clouds and encircling the cities" (Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History, Book 3, Ch. 8).
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
6,255
26
48
Preaching the kingdom of heaven was central to the early church’s ministry. This was true from the start of the gospel. God chose John the Baptist to prepare the way for Christ. His first and primary message was about the kingdom. He said, “Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand” (Matt 3:2).

The Nearness of the Kingdom

John proclaimed the kingdom was “at hand” (Matt 3:2). This time statement is important. It determines how we understand much of Biblical prophecy.

The Baptist did not suggest the kingdom might be near. Some prophetic teachers say Christ offered the kingdom to Israel. When they rejected him as their King, God delayed the kingdom and called Gentiles into his church. In the future, he will establish the kingdom. This view robs John’s statement of its certainty.

This Greek term (engizō) does not allow for the possibility of nearness. It asserts an actual nearness. It often refers to nearness of physical location (e.g., Matt 21:1). But our interest here is its use about time. It means “the occurrence of a point of time close to a subsequent point of time.”2 Something is near in time or it is not.

John did not make a mistake. The kingdom of heaven was near, or “at hand.”

This announcement is the first kingdom time statement in the New Testament. Jesus and his apostles built on this foundation of imminence. For example, Jesus said, “There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom” (Matt 16:28).

After Jesus’s resurrection, the apostles knew he had gone to heaven to receive his kingdom (cf. Dan 7:13–14). They said he would soon return to end the Mosaic Age and complete the transition to the kingdom (e.g., Heb 10:37).

They agreed with John. The kingdom’s arrival in their near future was not a possibility, it was a certainty.

The Nearness of Wrath

Matthew 3 says something else was also near—the wrath of God on apostate Israel. When John “saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?” (Matt 3:7).

This nearness is not as obvious as John’s earlier statement about the kingdom. So, we must dig a little deeper. Let’s begin by looking at Kenneth Wuest’s translation of John’s rebuke of the Jewish leaders. “He said to them, Offspring of vipers, who gave you a private, confidential hint that you should be fleeing from the wrath (Gk. orgē) about to break at any moment?”3

Wuest translates the Greek word mellō,4 which is often omitted. It can mean “to be about to, in purely temporal sense.”5 This is the appropriate meaning here. John called for repentance because the kingdom was “at hand” (Matt 3:2). He now also warns of soon-coming wrath. The context suggests temporal nearness for this wrath.

John’s warning contains the first time statement in the New Testament about God’s wrath. It is a warning of God’s wrath against apostate Israel. That wrath would come in John’s near future.

The apostles reflect this orientation. Paul speaks of these same apostate Jews. He says they forbid “us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath (Gk. orgē) is come upon them to the uttermost” (1 Thess 2:16). This was not some far-off wrath. It was in Paul’s immediate future.

God was about to judge apostate Israel. This soon-coming judgment was necessary to establish the soon-coming kingdom of heaven.

The Redefinition of Israel

John mentions another truth in this context. Jesus was redefining Israel. The apostate Jews relied on their genealogical link to Abraham. John warned, “think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father” (Matt 3:9).

In the kingdom age, physical descent from Abraham would not define Israel. Paul later ratified John’s statement. “They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed” (Rom 9:8).

This redefinition had already begun as John spoke. God had started the process of killing Israel as defined in the Mosaic Age. John said, “now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire” (Matt 3:10). John said this in AD 26. When someone cuts its roots, a tree withers and dries.

Jesus advanced this imagery of apostate Israel on his way to Golgotha. He said, “If they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?” (Luke 23:31).

The Jews killed their Messiah soon after John the Baptist announced God had cut their roots. This murder occurred in AD 30 while Israel’s tree was still green.

Their tree dried during the last days of the Mosaic Age. As a result, their acts became ever more maniacal. At the end, Josephus describes their dry-tree insanity. After the Romans surrounded Jerusalem in AD 70 (cp. Luke 21:20), he said,

I suppose, that had the Romans made any longer delay in coming against these villains, the city would either have been swallowed up by the ground opening upon them, or been overflowed by water, or else been destroyed by such thunder as the country of Sodom perished by, for it had brought forth a generation of men much more atheistical than were those that suffered such punishments; for by their madness it was that all the people came to be destroyed.​
Their dry-tree deeds showed it was time for God to cast them into the fire.

The Two Baptisms

In Matthew 3, John describes the soon-coming kingdom and judgment as a two-fold baptism. He said Jesus would “baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire” (Matt 3:11).

We have been discussing the baptism of fire. John said God’s wrath was “about to break at any moment” (Matt 3:7).

God burned apostate Israel (the dry tree) in the “great tribulation” of AD 66–70. This included the incineration of the Temple. Josephus, a Jew, said he lamented because
it was a seditious temper of our own that destroyed it; and that they were the tyrants among the Jews who brought the Roman power upon us, who unwillingly attacked us, and occasioned the burning of our holy temple.​
This was Israel’s baptism with fire.

But, as we saw earlier, John proclaimed another soon-coming event—the arrival of the kingdom (Matt 3:2). This kingdom required another kind of baptism—a baptism “with the Holy Ghost” (Matt 3:11).

The disciples needed this baptism to do the work before them. After his resurrection, Jesus gave them instructions regarding it. “Ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth” (Acts 1:8).

Jesus baptized elect Jews with the Holy Ghost on Pentecost, 50 days after his resurrection (Acts 2:1–3). He baptized apostate Jews with fire in the “great tribulation” (Matt 24:21) of AD 66–70.

Conclusion

John said these soon-coming events would winnow Israel as grain. Jesus would “thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire” (Matt 3:12).

The winnowing of men continues throughout the Messianic Age. It will culminate in the final judgment. But that was not John’s primary meaning. He was describing the establishment of the kingdom and God’s judgment of Israel. Both were about to happen in his day. God would soon gather the elect Jews into his kingdom granary. He would destroy the non-elect Jews in the fires of the “great tribulation” in his generation (Matt 24:21, 34).