the "rapture"
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M
I found your position somewhat plain old bitter, thats why I asked how you were doing.
I've seen every scripture you have posted thus far and none of them point to a pre-trib rapture.
As you know in the other thread I went over every verse you gave and clearly showed the reader those verses cannot mean pre-trib rapture by comparing them with other verses. Its simple when you let the Bible interpret the Bible instead of pulling one or two verses from here and there and making a doctrine out of it.
I can re-post the verses you gave that I went over extensively from the other thread if you like.
Then we could get back into discussing verses instead of continuing the childishness.
I've seen every scripture you have posted thus far and none of them point to a pre-trib rapture.
As you know in the other thread I went over every verse you gave and clearly showed the reader those verses cannot mean pre-trib rapture by comparing them with other verses. Its simple when you let the Bible interpret the Bible instead of pulling one or two verses from here and there and making a doctrine out of it.
I can re-post the verses you gave that I went over extensively from the other thread if you like.
Then we could get back into discussing verses instead of continuing the childishness.
The Last Trumpet: Why There is no Pre-Tribulation* or Mid-Tribulation* Rapture
Paul's View of the Last Days - Why There are None "Left Behind"
Those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation or Mid-Tribulation Rapture have argued that Jesus will appear and gather the saints and then disappear for either 3.5 years or 7 years* while the Anti-Christ takes over the earth.* However, Paul clearly states that when Jesus appears, Jesus will destroy the Lawless One at the same time he is gathering the saints to meet him in the air. There is no intervening period of 3 to 7 years.
The logic is very simple. Paul equates the return of the Lord with the slaying of the Anti-Christ [or Man of Lawlessness], he equates the return of Christ with the Rapture [or Assembly to meet Jesus in the air], and he equates the return of Christ with the Last Trumpet. Paul sees all three events as simultaneous. The Anti-Christ is causing a reign of terror before the coming of the Lord, and the saints are still on the earth being persecuted while this Man of Lawlessness has power. Paul anticipates that he may even be alive at the time of the Lord's appearing during this time of persecution - which would mean that Paul, a faithful, believing saint, might be on the earth during the time of the tribulation. He is not being left behind because of apostasy:
"But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words." 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, RSV.
There was a rumor spreading among the Thessalonians that they had missed the "rapture." They had heard that the Lord had already returned, and they feared they might have been "left behind." Paul writes 1 & 2 Thessalonians in part to assure believers that they have not been "left behind." Paul wants them to know that all believers will share in Christ's return and none will be left or miss the Lord's coming. Believing that even he might be on earth at the Lord's return, Paul says that the there will be many saints on the earth when Christ returns, and together with the previously dead in Christ, they all will assemble in the air to meet Jesus, who will, at that time, slay the Anti-Christ. Jesus will not leave people on the earth at the mercy of the Anti-Christ. There will not be an rapture [assembly in the air] and then, later, Jesus again coming a third time to destroy the Anti-Christ. Jesus destroys the Lawless One at the very same time he comes for the saints:
"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the Man of Lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you this?... And then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by his appearing and his coming." 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, RSV.
Paul further argues that not all will die, but some will be alive when the last trump sounds and, together with the dead in Christ, they shall all be changed at once! Since Christ brings the faithful dead with him at his appearing (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18), the assembly in the air and the last trump are simultaneous events:
"I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."" 1 Corinthians 15:50-54, RSV.
So, why do people think that the rapture will be before the tribulation or in the middle of the tribulation? Scant weight is given in the parables of the Kingdom:
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they did not know until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of man. Then two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left." Matthew 24:36-40, RSV.
However, this passage does not indicate that the person is left behind to face a tribulation, and perhaps a later salvation. The saints are "raptured" as Christ returns, but, like those left behind when God closed the door on Noah's ark, those left behind are left behind to face judgment:
"I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:" 2 Timothy 4:1, NKJV.
In addition, Paul argues that the final rebellion [apostasy or the falling away] which allows the Anti-Christ to be revealed is a rebellion of judgment ordained for all those who reject Christ. The people rebel, but the Scripture says they are deluded so that can be judged by God at the appearing of Christ:
"And then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by his appearing and his coming. The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12, RSV.
When Jesus appears, he does not leave some behind for a later rapture; instead, at his coming, he judges both the Lawless One and all those who have followed him. The point is, the judgment of the Lawless One and his followers [the unbelievers], Jesus' Appearing or Coming Again, and the Assembly of Saints in the sky [Rapture], all are one event.
There is no evidence that the Rapture or Assembly happens either before or in the middle of the last tribulation.
For extensive arguments as to why the belief in a Laodicean Age of Apostasy is not relevant, go here.
*The Great Tribulation, a 7 year period in which the Anti-Christ rules the earth and persecutes the church. This 7 year period is seen as predicted in Daniel 12:11-12 as a time of great persecution which corresponds to Revelation's last days. The idea of Pre-Tribulation Rapture is that the escape of the saints takes place before this period of tribulation takes place. Mid-Tribulation Rapture is the idea that the saints are taken up during the middle of this seven year period. The problem with both views historically, is that there are ample scriptures which predict the saints will suffer persecution but be proved faithful even unto death. Revelation is full of references to the saints who have glorified God through martyrdom during the reign of the Anti-Christ, while there is no mention of a reward for those who merely escape persecution:
"Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Revelation 20:4, NRSV. (see also Rev. 12:11 & 6:10-11)
Another problem historically is that apocalyptic books like Daniel and Revelation are not literal chronologies but spiritual and symbolic testimonies which reveal divine truth about God's sovereign rule over human affairs. Their use of numbers is meant to be symbolic, with John using over 400 references to Old Testament scriptures, symbols, numbers, and imagery which would have been clearly understood by his readers as having symbolic meanings. We are in danger of great misinterpretation when we take a spiritual vision and interpret as a literal, historical chronology of earthly events.
The Last Trumpet: Why There is no Pre-Trib or Mid-Tribulation Rapture
* note from z
i did not learn these things or be convinced by these things concerning the Second Coming and the "change"/ressurrection/"rapture" from articles like this one : i read the Scriptures FIRST, not having been "churched" in advance......consequently i was SHOCKED to actually hear the pre-trib teaching, but quickly connected it to the warnings of the very thing in 2 thessalonians 2.
i post just this one simple study....there are many many more.
Jesus will NOT return with saints who have died (not having yet been united with their GLORIFIED BODIES AT THE 7TH TRUMP, JUST ABOVE THE EVENTS ON EARTH ANS HE POURS OUT THE WRATH) until the 7th trumpet, the last one. those who are "asleep" (have died) in Jesus COME WITH HIM to "catch up" the living saints in a MOMENT (the word is like our wrd for "atom": that's the change into eternally inccoruptible bodies, just LIKE JESUS'. - we shall be like Him, and so shall we ever be with Him.
He is coming HERE. He is coming to earth, and THIS EARTH will be rejuvinated, remade, the curse removed, New Jerusalem COMES DOWN out of heaven to REPLACE OLD, EARTHLY jERUSALEM. "Heaven" currently, in another dimension, so to speak, is COMING TO US HERE and will replace our current physical reality with death, etc REMOVED.
THE FOLLOWING POST is an ELLIPTICAL CHART showing God's Eternal Purpose with creation, man, etc. the entire Bible (as description of God's actual physical activity) is constructed in the same symmetrical way.......later i will post the ellipses for The Book of Psalms which shows visually that Psalms is a CHRONOLOGICAL blueprint/record of God's dealings with man/His people from the beginning to the "end" - the "end" of this age simply being the first day of the NEW AGE : ETERNITY.....the end of space and time as we know it now.
Paul's View of the Last Days - Why There are None "Left Behind"
Those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation or Mid-Tribulation Rapture have argued that Jesus will appear and gather the saints and then disappear for either 3.5 years or 7 years* while the Anti-Christ takes over the earth.* However, Paul clearly states that when Jesus appears, Jesus will destroy the Lawless One at the same time he is gathering the saints to meet him in the air. There is no intervening period of 3 to 7 years.
The logic is very simple. Paul equates the return of the Lord with the slaying of the Anti-Christ [or Man of Lawlessness], he equates the return of Christ with the Rapture [or Assembly to meet Jesus in the air], and he equates the return of Christ with the Last Trumpet. Paul sees all three events as simultaneous. The Anti-Christ is causing a reign of terror before the coming of the Lord, and the saints are still on the earth being persecuted while this Man of Lawlessness has power. Paul anticipates that he may even be alive at the time of the Lord's appearing during this time of persecution - which would mean that Paul, a faithful, believing saint, might be on the earth during the time of the tribulation. He is not being left behind because of apostasy:
"But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words." 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, RSV.
There was a rumor spreading among the Thessalonians that they had missed the "rapture." They had heard that the Lord had already returned, and they feared they might have been "left behind." Paul writes 1 & 2 Thessalonians in part to assure believers that they have not been "left behind." Paul wants them to know that all believers will share in Christ's return and none will be left or miss the Lord's coming. Believing that even he might be on earth at the Lord's return, Paul says that the there will be many saints on the earth when Christ returns, and together with the previously dead in Christ, they all will assemble in the air to meet Jesus, who will, at that time, slay the Anti-Christ. Jesus will not leave people on the earth at the mercy of the Anti-Christ. There will not be an rapture [assembly in the air] and then, later, Jesus again coming a third time to destroy the Anti-Christ. Jesus destroys the Lawless One at the very same time he comes for the saints:
"Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our assembling to meet him, we beg you, brethren, not to be quickly shaken in mind or excited, either by spirit or by word, or by letter purporting to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the Man of Lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you this?... And then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by his appearing and his coming." 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, RSV.
Paul further argues that not all will die, but some will be alive when the last trump sounds and, together with the dead in Christ, they shall all be changed at once! Since Christ brings the faithful dead with him at his appearing (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18), the assembly in the air and the last trump are simultaneous events:
"I tell you this, brethren: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."" 1 Corinthians 15:50-54, RSV.
So, why do people think that the rapture will be before the tribulation or in the middle of the tribulation? Scant weight is given in the parables of the Kingdom:
"But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. As were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of man. For as in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day when Noah entered the ark, and they did not know until the flood came and swept them all away, so will be the coming of the Son of man. Then two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left." Matthew 24:36-40, RSV.
However, this passage does not indicate that the person is left behind to face a tribulation, and perhaps a later salvation. The saints are "raptured" as Christ returns, but, like those left behind when God closed the door on Noah's ark, those left behind are left behind to face judgment:
"I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:" 2 Timothy 4:1, NKJV.
In addition, Paul argues that the final rebellion [apostasy or the falling away] which allows the Anti-Christ to be revealed is a rebellion of judgment ordained for all those who reject Christ. The people rebel, but the Scripture says they are deluded so that can be judged by God at the appearing of Christ:
"And then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by his appearing and his coming. The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness." 2 Thessalonians 2:8-12, RSV.
When Jesus appears, he does not leave some behind for a later rapture; instead, at his coming, he judges both the Lawless One and all those who have followed him. The point is, the judgment of the Lawless One and his followers [the unbelievers], Jesus' Appearing or Coming Again, and the Assembly of Saints in the sky [Rapture], all are one event.
There is no evidence that the Rapture or Assembly happens either before or in the middle of the last tribulation.
For extensive arguments as to why the belief in a Laodicean Age of Apostasy is not relevant, go here.
*The Great Tribulation, a 7 year period in which the Anti-Christ rules the earth and persecutes the church. This 7 year period is seen as predicted in Daniel 12:11-12 as a time of great persecution which corresponds to Revelation's last days. The idea of Pre-Tribulation Rapture is that the escape of the saints takes place before this period of tribulation takes place. Mid-Tribulation Rapture is the idea that the saints are taken up during the middle of this seven year period. The problem with both views historically, is that there are ample scriptures which predict the saints will suffer persecution but be proved faithful even unto death. Revelation is full of references to the saints who have glorified God through martyrdom during the reign of the Anti-Christ, while there is no mention of a reward for those who merely escape persecution:
"Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years." Revelation 20:4, NRSV. (see also Rev. 12:11 & 6:10-11)
Another problem historically is that apocalyptic books like Daniel and Revelation are not literal chronologies but spiritual and symbolic testimonies which reveal divine truth about God's sovereign rule over human affairs. Their use of numbers is meant to be symbolic, with John using over 400 references to Old Testament scriptures, symbols, numbers, and imagery which would have been clearly understood by his readers as having symbolic meanings. We are in danger of great misinterpretation when we take a spiritual vision and interpret as a literal, historical chronology of earthly events.
The Last Trumpet: Why There is no Pre-Trib or Mid-Tribulation Rapture
* note from z
i did not learn these things or be convinced by these things concerning the Second Coming and the "change"/ressurrection/"rapture" from articles like this one : i read the Scriptures FIRST, not having been "churched" in advance......consequently i was SHOCKED to actually hear the pre-trib teaching, but quickly connected it to the warnings of the very thing in 2 thessalonians 2.
i post just this one simple study....there are many many more.
Jesus will NOT return with saints who have died (not having yet been united with their GLORIFIED BODIES AT THE 7TH TRUMP, JUST ABOVE THE EVENTS ON EARTH ANS HE POURS OUT THE WRATH) until the 7th trumpet, the last one. those who are "asleep" (have died) in Jesus COME WITH HIM to "catch up" the living saints in a MOMENT (the word is like our wrd for "atom": that's the change into eternally inccoruptible bodies, just LIKE JESUS'. - we shall be like Him, and so shall we ever be with Him.
He is coming HERE. He is coming to earth, and THIS EARTH will be rejuvinated, remade, the curse removed, New Jerusalem COMES DOWN out of heaven to REPLACE OLD, EARTHLY jERUSALEM. "Heaven" currently, in another dimension, so to speak, is COMING TO US HERE and will replace our current physical reality with death, etc REMOVED.
THE FOLLOWING POST is an ELLIPTICAL CHART showing God's Eternal Purpose with creation, man, etc. the entire Bible (as description of God's actual physical activity) is constructed in the same symmetrical way.......later i will post the ellipses for The Book of Psalms which shows visually that Psalms is a CHRONOLOGICAL blueprint/record of God's dealings with man/His people from the beginning to the "end" - the "end" of this age simply being the first day of the NEW AGE : ETERNITY.....the end of space and time as we know it now.
The Eternal Purpose
[SIZE=+4]The Eternal Purpose[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+3](Ephesians 3:[/SIZE][SIZE=+2]11[/SIZE][SIZE=+3]).[/SIZE]
[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1][/SIZE][/FONT]
i have discovered that the elliptical formatting does not paste here, you must click the link to "SEE" the Plan.
THE RAIN / THE ETERNAL PURPOSE (Ephesians 3:11). THE DISPENSATIONAL PLAN OF THE BIBLE.
..................
*notice the ELLIPTICAL pattern: that A=A, B=B, C=C, and so on. in other words, for example, GENESIS has it's parallel in REVELATION, the beginning is like unto the end........(see next post)
if we take the time to search the Scriptures according the documentation, we see no one has made this up, it is WRITTEN.....
REGARDING "THE RAPTURE", it is the "catching up" as He comes HERE (the first resurrection), and takes place in between H & G...there is no time between that event and the SECOND ADVENT, they are the same event.....z
[SIZE=+4]The Eternal Purpose[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+3](Ephesians 3:[/SIZE][SIZE=+2]11[/SIZE][SIZE=+3]).[/SIZE]
[FONT=Aldine,Kuenst,Clarendon,Times New Roman][SIZE=+1][/SIZE][/FONT]
i have discovered that the elliptical formatting does not paste here, you must click the link to "SEE" the Plan.
THE RAIN / THE ETERNAL PURPOSE (Ephesians 3:11). THE DISPENSATIONAL PLAN OF THE BIBLE.
..................
*notice the ELLIPTICAL pattern: that A=A, B=B, C=C, and so on. in other words, for example, GENESIS has it's parallel in REVELATION, the beginning is like unto the end........(see next post)
if we take the time to search the Scriptures according the documentation, we see no one has made this up, it is WRITTEN.....
REGARDING "THE RAPTURE", it is the "catching up" as He comes HERE (the first resurrection), and takes place in between H & G...there is no time between that event and the SECOND ADVENT, they are the same event.....z
Re: The Eternal Purpose
now i see th hotlink doesn't paste either.
Google, i.e:
The Rain The Eternal Purpose
you should get a list of Appendixes, the chart i hope you find is
198. The Eternal Purpose,[SIZE=-1] (Ephesians 3:[SIZE=-2]11[/SIZE]). The Dispensational Plan of the Bible. [/SIZE]
now i see th hotlink doesn't paste either.
Google, i.e:
The Rain The Eternal Purpose
you should get a list of Appendixes, the chart i hope you find is
198. The Eternal Purpose,[SIZE=-1] (Ephesians 3:[SIZE=-2]11[/SIZE]). The Dispensational Plan of the Bible. [/SIZE]
NO ONE can come to Christ before He Returns without the Word and The Holy Spirit (as offered up by THE SAINTS through their testimony).
the pre-trib teaching has said that The Holy Spirit is "the restrainer" who holds back the Wicked One/evil until the saints are raptured off the earth, leaving nothing but the trib and evil. firstly, this simply makes it IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to get saved at that time. No preachers/testimony/Holy Spirit = NO ONE SAVED.
but the proof that The Holy Spirit IS NOT THE RESTRAINER of 2 Thessalonians 2 is in both the Greek and the English in that there is NO DIVINE ARTICLE attached to the HE spoken of. in other words, simply, in Engish, if the he in 2 thess 2 is the Holy Spirit, the he would be "He", THE HE, as all other references to persons of the Triune Godhead are.
my belief is the the restrainer is Michael the archangel who is yet to cast Satan to earth (the "what" the withholdeth may be whereever satan is currently "under arrest" we could say..). it is THEN that the Wicked will be revealed, as he comes deceiving the world as Messiah.
......THEN, and only then (after that) does Christ come to destroy antichrist's kingdom with the Brightness of His Coming.
we know that even now is satan in the heavenly realm in his personal form, since he is before the throne of God, accusing us day and night.
the "sitting down at the right hand of God" that Jesus has done is as a DEFENDER in a courtroom, who always sits at the right hand of the Judge, while the accuser, or "prosecutor" sits at the left, making accusations. Satan is accusing us of all the things he has done : sin and rebellion and seeking our death with him. but our setence has been established:
Jesus, as our Defender, is making intercession on our behalf, based upon HIS FINISHED WORK. we are already AQUITTED, NOT GUILTY, because of His Atoning Work in our place.
in other words, though the Plan is finished, it must play out.
...........
back to the "rapture"/Second Coming, again, i can only point back to Paul's second letter to the Thessaolians. the answer is clear there. Paul sent th second letter in response to problems that arouse AFTER THE FIRST LETTER.
the first letter to the Thessalonians was in response the question: "where are our loved ones who have died believing in Jesus (asleep)".
Paul proceeds to tell them not to worry, Jesus will bring them with Him, when He comes for us, and sets up His Kingdom here.
Paul had to send the second letter, in response to FEARS THEY HAD OVER WHEN THIS WOULD TAKE PLACE.
some had come to them and were telling them, apparently in words, evil spirits invovled, and even counterfeit letters from Paul that THE RESURRECTION ("rapture" if you like) had already happened and they had been left behind.
read the second letter again, slowly, to see that the subject is no longer WHERE ARE THEY (1st letter), and is now WHEN WILL THIS HAPPEN?
the pre-trib teaching has said that The Holy Spirit is "the restrainer" who holds back the Wicked One/evil until the saints are raptured off the earth, leaving nothing but the trib and evil. firstly, this simply makes it IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to get saved at that time. No preachers/testimony/Holy Spirit = NO ONE SAVED.
but the proof that The Holy Spirit IS NOT THE RESTRAINER of 2 Thessalonians 2 is in both the Greek and the English in that there is NO DIVINE ARTICLE attached to the HE spoken of. in other words, simply, in Engish, if the he in 2 thess 2 is the Holy Spirit, the he would be "He", THE HE, as all other references to persons of the Triune Godhead are.
my belief is the the restrainer is Michael the archangel who is yet to cast Satan to earth (the "what" the withholdeth may be whereever satan is currently "under arrest" we could say..). it is THEN that the Wicked will be revealed, as he comes deceiving the world as Messiah.
......THEN, and only then (after that) does Christ come to destroy antichrist's kingdom with the Brightness of His Coming.
we know that even now is satan in the heavenly realm in his personal form, since he is before the throne of God, accusing us day and night.
the "sitting down at the right hand of God" that Jesus has done is as a DEFENDER in a courtroom, who always sits at the right hand of the Judge, while the accuser, or "prosecutor" sits at the left, making accusations. Satan is accusing us of all the things he has done : sin and rebellion and seeking our death with him. but our setence has been established:
Jesus, as our Defender, is making intercession on our behalf, based upon HIS FINISHED WORK. we are already AQUITTED, NOT GUILTY, because of His Atoning Work in our place.
in other words, though the Plan is finished, it must play out.
...........
back to the "rapture"/Second Coming, again, i can only point back to Paul's second letter to the Thessaolians. the answer is clear there. Paul sent th second letter in response to problems that arouse AFTER THE FIRST LETTER.
the first letter to the Thessalonians was in response the question: "where are our loved ones who have died believing in Jesus (asleep)".
Paul proceeds to tell them not to worry, Jesus will bring them with Him, when He comes for us, and sets up His Kingdom here.
Paul had to send the second letter, in response to FEARS THEY HAD OVER WHEN THIS WOULD TAKE PLACE.
some had come to them and were telling them, apparently in words, evil spirits invovled, and even counterfeit letters from Paul that THE RESURRECTION ("rapture" if you like) had already happened and they had been left behind.
read the second letter again, slowly, to see that the subject is no longer WHERE ARE THEY (1st letter), and is now WHEN WILL THIS HAPPEN?
It is easy to confuse the resurrection with the gathering of the bride to the Son. But if we read carefully, the resurrection is of the dead. Are we dead? No, because it is clear that we have been raised up in Christ, that we are even now seated with Him in the heavenly places. Our lives are hidden in God with Him. When Jesus described the resurrections, both the first and the second, it was a resurrection of those who are in the tombs, those who did good deeds to a resurrection of life, and those who did evil to a resurrection of judgment. But we are already alive in Him, if we have heard His voice.
It is also true that even though we do not know what we shall be, we do know that when we see Him, we will become just as He is. Oddly enough, this does not sound like a resurrection to me, but rather a change in our bodies to become just as He is. Laying aside an earthly body of corruption for a heavenly body that is incorruptible.
[SIZE=-1]2 Thessalonians 2[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [/SIZE]
[Paul is saying the DAY IS NOT AT HAND, i.e.: any moment doctrine. he is saying certain things must take place FIRST]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [/SIZE]
[the falling away is the apostasy, the falling away from Christ, to worship the devil (son of perdition) and receive his mark] - the Hour ofTemptation.
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. [/SIZE]
["he" being the son of perdition who is withheld by someTHING, but will be revealed at the proper time]
[SIZE=-1]7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]["he" who "letteth": the he is NOT of The Godhead since there is no Divine article attached to it, as it is when referencing Father Son or Holy Spirit, i.e.: "He" as opposed to he, small H][/SIZE]
["letteth" means to hold down in some fashion, to hold back, or restrain. when "he" is taken out of the way refers either to the "he" holding or the "he" being held (no one is certain) in either case it means when the command comes forth to reveal the son of perdition in the proper time. we know Michael will war with satan and his, and satan loses and is cast down to earth, wroth, knowing he has but a short time (THE HOUR)]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][presumably "him" being antichrist possessed and empowered by satan as was Judas][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be ****ed who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][what LIE is it that they will be forced by God to believe, as judgment for rejecting the Truth? - that the one sitting in Jerusalem, performing lying signs and wonders claiming to be God is the Messiah. even now the synagogue of satan is preparing for him, and professing believers who have put aside study to be raptured AT ANY MOMENT are going to expect JESUS BEFORE THE DEVIL.[/SIZE]
but those who were chosen to salvation "through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" will not be deceived, since the Lord has promised He will not allow it. they will be given grace and strength to resist the Hour of Temptation, and will be faithful even unto death]
[SIZE=-1]
13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
[Paul is saying, don't worry Thessalonians, you are saved, and you will know the truth at THE APPOINTED TIME of the appearance of the son of perdition, that he is NOT GOD. you will not be deceived, because as Jesus said, "to deceive, IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, even the very elect." the phrase "if it were possible" is the strongest double negative in the Greek. it means, can not be, shall not by any means be DECEIVED]
you will obtain the Glory of Jesus - hold fast TO WHAT WE TAUGHT YOU, either in person or by letter ]
16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [/SIZE]
[Paul is saying the DAY IS NOT AT HAND, i.e.: any moment doctrine. he is saying certain things must take place FIRST]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [/SIZE]
[the falling away is the apostasy, the falling away from Christ, to worship the devil (son of perdition) and receive his mark] - the Hour ofTemptation.
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. [/SIZE]
["he" being the son of perdition who is withheld by someTHING, but will be revealed at the proper time]
[SIZE=-1]7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]["he" who "letteth": the he is NOT of The Godhead since there is no Divine article attached to it, as it is when referencing Father Son or Holy Spirit, i.e.: "He" as opposed to he, small H][/SIZE]
["letteth" means to hold down in some fashion, to hold back, or restrain. when "he" is taken out of the way refers either to the "he" holding or the "he" being held (no one is certain) in either case it means when the command comes forth to reveal the son of perdition in the proper time. we know Michael will war with satan and his, and satan loses and is cast down to earth, wroth, knowing he has but a short time (THE HOUR)]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][presumably "him" being antichrist possessed and empowered by satan as was Judas][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be ****ed who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][what LIE is it that they will be forced by God to believe, as judgment for rejecting the Truth? - that the one sitting in Jerusalem, performing lying signs and wonders claiming to be God is the Messiah. even now the synagogue of satan is preparing for him, and professing believers who have put aside study to be raptured AT ANY MOMENT are going to expect JESUS BEFORE THE DEVIL.[/SIZE]
but those who were chosen to salvation "through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" will not be deceived, since the Lord has promised He will not allow it. they will be given grace and strength to resist the Hour of Temptation, and will be faithful even unto death]
[SIZE=-1]
13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
[Paul is saying, don't worry Thessalonians, you are saved, and you will know the truth at THE APPOINTED TIME of the appearance of the son of perdition, that he is NOT GOD. you will not be deceived, because as Jesus said, "to deceive, IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, even the very elect." the phrase "if it were possible" is the strongest double negative in the Greek. it means, can not be, shall not by any means be DECEIVED]
you will obtain the Glory of Jesus - hold fast TO WHAT WE TAUGHT YOU, either in person or by letter ]
16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
[/SIZE]
There are several assumptions here. The two most glaring are that the deceived will worship Satan and receive his mark, that this is the falling away. That is not supported in scripture.
The second is that Michael is the one who restrains. This is not stated in scripture either.
Another is that the deluding influence is the false prophet in the temple. For the actual wording is God sends upon them a deluding influence. This could be anything, and the most important part of this statement is that the reason that God sends this influence to them is because they would not receive the love of the truth.
The antichrist will deceive the world. But there are those who chose not to receive the truth, and them God deludes. He does not need the devil to do this. Just ask Pharaoh. In fact, I see these as being deceived by Babylon, the harlot. I believe that this mystery already works.
Let me say that I do not believe in a pretrib rapture. But I don't believe that our catching away is the resurrection either.
Blessings in His name,
vic
The second is that Michael is the one who restrains. This is not stated in scripture either.
Another is that the deluding influence is the false prophet in the temple. For the actual wording is God sends upon them a deluding influence. This could be anything, and the most important part of this statement is that the reason that God sends this influence to them is because they would not receive the love of the truth.
The antichrist will deceive the world. But there are those who chose not to receive the truth, and them God deludes. He does not need the devil to do this. Just ask Pharaoh. In fact, I see these as being deceived by Babylon, the harlot. I believe that this mystery already works.
Let me say that I do not believe in a pretrib rapture. But I don't believe that our catching away is the resurrection either.
Blessings in His name,
vic
I agree that the pretrib rapture cannot be supported by scripture, and I don't see it by the leading and teaching of the Spirit either. But, I do not see us still being here when Jesus returns to take His throne on earth. In fact, I see several times during the tribulation in which those who are His are caught away, and even before the Lord's return, when His bride is present at the marriage feast.
We, the body of Christ, the bride of Jesus, need to find the love for Him that is beyond anything seen in a very long time. He is not coming to receive a harlot, no matter what kind of dress she puts on. His bride, who we are, will be perfect and pure and spotless and without wrinkle or blemish or any other thing.
I saw a vision once, the world dark, covered in darkness, no light at all. Then, I could see small points of light, here and there, glowing on the face of the earth. I wanted to know what this light was, so I drew nearer to them. As I got closer, the points of light became larger, grew in size, not just from me getting closer, but actually growing. When I got close enough, I saw that the light was the people who loved God, and that the light was love for Him shining up from their faces. All around them was darkness, and the darkness was the rest of the people of the world. Most of the people in the darkness were trying to destroy the light, those who were light, but some were trying to get in to the light, to become one with those who were light. When all those who would become light joined, then the light was taken away, to be with the Lord.
We, the body of Christ, the bride of Jesus, need to find the love for Him that is beyond anything seen in a very long time. He is not coming to receive a harlot, no matter what kind of dress she puts on. His bride, who we are, will be perfect and pure and spotless and without wrinkle or blemish or any other thing.
I saw a vision once, the world dark, covered in darkness, no light at all. Then, I could see small points of light, here and there, glowing on the face of the earth. I wanted to know what this light was, so I drew nearer to them. As I got closer, the points of light became larger, grew in size, not just from me getting closer, but actually growing. When I got close enough, I saw that the light was the people who loved God, and that the light was love for Him shining up from their faces. All around them was darkness, and the darkness was the rest of the people of the world. Most of the people in the darkness were trying to destroy the light, those who were light, but some were trying to get in to the light, to become one with those who were light. When all those who would become light joined, then the light was taken away, to be with the Lord.