"The rich man And Lazarus..."

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Jun 20, 2022
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You’re making my argument for me. Jesus was talking to His disciples thus He was speaking plainly, not in a parable.
so why did the 3 DISCIPLES connected to this Story = Matthew-Mark (Peter)-John not mention this. they wrote about every other Parable and confirm one another. this account comes from someone not even there. they don't know if it happened or not.
 

Snacks

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Feb 10, 2022
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That’s false. If you would have read Luke 16 you would have seen the audience are Pharisees.

Luke 16:14
14The Pharisees, who were lovers of money, heard all of this and were scoffing at Jesus
Luke 16 begins: Jesus told His disciples…
 

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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Why do you believe something where it potentially has 3 witnesses and they never mention it but someone not there does [[supposedly]] mention it?

You don't see the issue here?
I'm not following what you mean. Care to explain? Thanks.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Luke 16 begins: Jesus told His disciples…
He was speaking in parables because Pharisees were present throughout that discourse. The rich man and Lazarus is a parable. I rest my case.
 

Snacks

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Feb 10, 2022
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I’m saying that the way people are understanding this is not accurate if they don’t understand it’s a parable. I am not saying Jesus is inaccurate even one time. In fact, I’ve said the opposite repeatedly.
If it’s a parable then Jesus beared false witness against Abraham. In a court of law that will get you thrown in jail.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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The word "like" indicates to not take what is said literally.
The parable of the shrewd manager in Luke 16 doesn’t contain the word “like,“ so is this parable not a parable after all, but a literal/real historic event?
 
Mar 4, 2020
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If it’s a parable then Jesus beared false witness against Abraham. In a court of law that will get you thrown in jail.
Just to be clear those are your words, not mine.

Jesus often quoted unnamed people in His parables. Saying an unnamed person said something they didn’t really say is bearing false witness even if they are just using a scenario as a teaching tool, according to you.

Don’t forget, all Jesus said He didn’t say on His own authority, but rather said what the Father told Him to say.
 

Webers.Home

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May 28, 2018
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it isn’t true in the sense that people aren’t persuaded by resurrection.

Abraham's response was specifically directed to the man's five brothers;
only his five brothers: none else.




Who wouldn’t the rich man’s family not believe in resurrection and his story
about the afterlife if he was dead for a while then came back? The parable
says the rich man was buried, presumably by his family. They would believe
it.

No doubt the man's five brothers would've believed him, but the man didn't
ask for himself to go; and aren't you curious why.

Well, countless numbers of people have been transferring to the wrong side
of the netherworld ever since the days of Cain; prior to Noah's flood. No
doubt the man discovered from them that no one yet had managed to
escape back to the world.
_
 

Webers.Home

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a usually short fictitious story

Fiction can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that,
though untrue; are plausible; viz: realistic.

Fantasy can be defined as stories about people, places, and events that are
not only untrue; but implausible; viz: unrealistic.

For example: a story about a wooden boy like Pinocchio is unrealistic; while
a story about a boy with autism is realistic. The difference between Pinocchio
and the autistic boy is that the one is compatible with normal reality; while
the other is far removed from normal reality.

I have yet to read even one of Jesus' parables that couldn't possibly be a
real-life story. They're all actually quite believable-- banquets, stewards,
weddings, farmers sowing seed, pearls, lost sheep, fish nets, lost coins, sons
leaving home, wine skins bursting, tares among the wheat, leavened bread,
barren fig trees, the blind leading the blind, et al.

Now; if Christ had told a story with a moon made of green cheese; we would
have good reason to believe that at least that particular parable was
fantasy; but not one of them are so far removed from the normal round of
human experience that they have no basis in reality whatsoever.

No; there's nothing out of the ordinary in Christ's parables. At best; they
qualify as fiction; but never fantasy because that would be extremely out of
character for Christ-- the Logos: the voice of God

We must conclude then that there really is an afterlife place of conscious
suffering where people endure unbearable anxiety worrying their loved ones
are on a road to where they are and there is no way to warn them; similar
to the survivors of the Titanic watching their loved ones go to Davy Jones
while utterly helpless to do anything about it.

You know what can be even worse than going to hell? Your own children
following you there: and they trusted you. Here's a sort of cute story I heard
once. I don't know if it's from real life, but it sure is pertinent.

A thirsty farmer went out to his barn in the dead of night after a snowfall to
sneak a pull from a hidden liquor bottle. Just as he got to the barn door he
heard something behind him. Turning, the farmer recognized his little boy
coming towards him. In amazement he asked the little guy how he ever
managed to find his way out to the barn in the dark. His son replied: The
snow; I walked in your footsteps.

Can you just imagine the anguish that parents feel in the netherworld
knowing they brought up their children to follow an ideology whose pot at
the end of the rainbow is filled with fire instead of gold. How do people bear
up under something like that on their conscience?
_
 

Diakonos

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Jan 19, 2019
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"And As It Is Appointed Unto men ONCE to die, But After this The JUDGMENT!" (Hebrews 9:27)
I'm not disagreeing with the OP here; I believe Lazarus in Luke 16 was a real person.

But I'd like to point out that Hebrews 9:27 is not a universal rule, but rather the norm.
Besides Jesus, every person who was raised from the dead died twice. And those who will be raptured will never die.

It says, "unto men", not "unto all men".

I just want to make sure that people don't use this verse to support a faulty doctrine. I'm not saying that's what you're doing...it's more for others who may use it later.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Your position is they the rich man and Lazarus parable is not a parable at all because names of real people of quoted. Also, parables where the names of real people are not quoted are parables. That means sense the rich man isn’t named then your subjective criteria for defining a parable is false.
You are just vainly trying to split the account up, with a very phony charge.

Since TWO men WERE named, including a very famous man, Abraham, it doesn't matter that the rich man wasn't named.

You can't have a parable in the middle of a historical account. Everyone else knows that.

If the names are meaningless for the unsaved, but important for the saved, then why aren’t the names of people who are saved not listed in the parables?
Why don't you just ask Jesus. You're really struggling in order to defend your "parable" claim.

btw, why is it so important to you that the account is simply a parable anyway? Care to share?

I think you are hiding something, or are struggling to hold onto some doctrine for it to be a parable.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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John146 said:
Btw, there was just a little over 500 who actually saw the resurrected Jesus before he ascended. That's the discussion. Even if the rich man's family saw a saint resurrected, they still wouldn't believe.
Who wouldn’t the rich man’s family not believe in resurrection and his story about the afterlife if he was dead for a while then came back?
This shows that you really don't KNOW anything about the account. The rich man didn't ask to go back, as you opine. He asked Abraham to send Lazarus back to his 5 brothers. Why would the rich man think his brothers would believe a poor man, who they probably didn't even know anyway.

The parable says the rich man was buried, presumably by his family. They would believe it.
The rich man DIDN'T ask to go back. He asked Abraham to send Lazarus back. Read the account, for heaven's sake.

What Abraham said in this parable isn’t literal because, again, God knows resurrection is a compelling miracle. Hence why it’s part of the gospel.
So, Jesus was just putting words in the mouth of Abraham then? How is that sane?
 
Jan 31, 2021
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My faith in the New Testament would be shaken if Abraham contradicted the gospel. Abraham says they won’t be persuaded by someone who raised from the dead and Jesus requires faith in His resurrection.
This is confused on several levels.

First, Abraham didn't contradict anything. But since you believe he did, and Jesus was telling the story, why would Jesus bother to quote anyone who contradicted His gospel in the first place? How is THAT sane?

Second, Lots of people during Jesus' ministry and before were "raised from the dead". How many received glorified bodies, bodies that would NEVER die? None. Or the Bible would have made that clear. Remember the other Lazarus? The Jews wanted to KILL HIM after Jesus raised him from the dead.

Also, Abraham said the rich man went to torment for having good things in life and Lazarus went to comfort for having evil things in life.
There's your other confusion. There is NOTHING in Jesus' account that shows results for particular lifestyles. In fact, what would have been the point?

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.

Where do you see anything about cause and effect here? Therre isn't any. Abraham simply noted the unbeliever had good things in life while the believer had bad things in life. That's all he noted.

You're making up stuff on the fly.

Neither of those are reasons why people are saved and lost.
Nor did Abraham give "reasons" WHY they ended up where they did.

Maybe you can explain how what Abraham said is literal. I am just not seeing it.
Open your eyes then. Of course you aren't seeing anything. You don't want to.

Read v.25 and explain the words that support your opinion about what Abe said.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that it’s a parable and it’s a true parable, but it isn’t true in the sense that people aren’t persuaded by resurrection.
The ONLY resurrection that Jesus spoke of is the one in which believers get glorified immortal bodies. You are confusing apples to oranges.
 

Webers.Home

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In the story told at Luke 16-19-31, the beggar Lazarus died and was carried
by angels to the afterlife. Curiously, the rich man's transportation isn't
specified.

One of the most disturbing scenes I've yet to observe in a Hollywood movie
occurs in "GHOST" starring Patrick Swayze and Demi Moore. When someone
marked for the wrong side of the afterlife passes away, these eerie
phantoms emerge, having the appearance of black oily smoke, uttering
awful moans, and drag their panic-stricken captives down into the ground.

I don't know if that's how the rich man in Luke's story was transported, but
if so; I can well imagine just how shocking and horrifying it must've been for
him at death to suddenly be able to see menacing spirit creatures
surrounding him with looks on their faces that could only convey but one
unmistakable intent; and I suspect those sinister beings had been hovering
around that poor man and stalking him every day and night of his entire life
without him knowing it and patiently waiting for the green light to take him
down.
_
 
Jan 31, 2021
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this Parable comes from Luke, not an eye witness.
OK, sure. Just "explain away" what doesn't agree with you. All Scripture is God breathed AND is profitable for doctrinal teaching, rebuke, correction and instruction in righteousness.

Notice the other 3 accounts Matthew, Mark Peter's Disciple, and John WHO WERE EYE WITNESSES NEVER WROTE ABOUT THIS.
Dr Luke wrote what the Holy Spirit inspired him to write.

There's a reason those who were WITNESSES never wrote about this and the one who was not an eye witness did supposedly write about it.
Your opinion.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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The parable of the rich man and Lazarus uses real names, but it doesn’t name the rich man’s name or any his family member’s names.
You are hung up on a non-starter.

Your sole criteria for this or being a parable is that real names are mentioned, but when real names aren’t mentioned you can’t accept that it’s a parable. So it’s your preference.
So you really think that Jesus gave a real account but inserted a parable in the account? How is that sane?
 
Jan 31, 2021
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Lazarus isn't the only one in "Abraham's bosom"
Right. All believers in the Messiah from Adam forward are there as well.

Presenting it as fact if it were not in fact an actual historical event but a parable, is misleading so therein would be the problem.
Can you explain what would be misleading if it is a real account of real people, having real conversations?