The Shroud of Turin

[Baptistrw]

This thread is still about the Shroud of Turin, not Catholics, not Pentecostals, not Baptists, not Presbyterians, not Methodists, etc; nor is is about works/faith. It has somehow devolved from the original point and been made an oppritunity to criticize others.

I think the Shroud is great. If it is truly the burial Shroud of our Lord, then I think it deserves a place of recognition in the eyes of Christians everywhere. If it is merely an elaborate work of art, then I think it is still an important testimony to the human desire to see Our Lord, to see the one who took on our nature in all but sin, and to dedicate the time and effort to create an image conveying in a simply way the truth of the death and resurrection of the Lord. Think of it as The Passion of the Christ for people who never lived to see movies. Real or not, many people have seen this and it has promted them to desire a deeper faith in the Lord. Like any relic ought to, it stands as a testament to Christ, a reminder to the believer, and a nudge to a deeper understanding of the faith in our Risen Lord.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; Ex 20:4-5 (KJV)

 

[phil36]

Hi All, I personally think its a fake. Ive seen a few documentarys on it and they came to the same conclusion.. Fake!. Juast as a side note, the face and final computer enhanced version above looks very much westernised well groomed hair etc.

Now if someone had just been crucified would they look so good? and why is it in western culture we have tjis image of Jeus, with blue eyes, white skin, golden blonde hair? I begin to wonder if the guys who do this artwork remember where Jesus was born... Sweden?

yours

Phil

 

[suaso]

"And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be. And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel" (Exodus 25:18-22 KJV).

"...and the LORD said to Moses, "Make a saraph and mount it on a pole, and if anyone who has been bitten looks at it, he will recover." (Numbers 21:8-9).
Moses accordingly made a bronze serpent and mounted it on a pole, and whenever anyone who had been bitten by a serpent looked at the bronze serpent, he recovered.


Apart from God commanding men to make these images of things on earth and above the earth after giving the commandment not to make and worship such things, who said anything about worshipping the Shroud anyways?

 

[Baptistrw]

"And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be. And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel" (Exodus 25:18-22 KJV).

"...and the LORD said to Moses, "Make a saraph and mount it on a pole, and if anyone who has been bitten looks at it, he will recover." (Numbers 21:8-9).
Moses accordingly made a bronze serpent and mounted it on a pole, and whenever anyone who had been bitten by a serpent looked at the bronze serpent, he recovered.


Apart from God commanding men to make these images of things on earth and above the earth after giving the commandment not to make and worship such things, who said anything about worshipping the Shroud anyways?

It's exactly what's happened with it. Images aren't the issue, it's what man does with it that is. Satan is having a blast with things like this and all those phony relics in Europe. There's a reason why we don't have any originals of NT manuscripts, and it's because they'd probably be worshiped! Worship God, depend on Christ alone through scripture alone (sola scruptura!), don't place your faith in some shroud.

 

[Baptistrw]

Hi All, I personally think its a fake. Ive seen a few documentarys on it and they came to the same conclusion.. Fake!. Juast as a side note, the face and final computer enhanced version above looks very much westernised well groomed hair etc.

Now if someone had just been crucified would they look so good? and why is it in western culture we have tjis image of Jeus, with blue eyes, white skin, golden blonde hair? I begin to wonder if the guys who do this artwork remember where Jesus was born... Sweden?

yours

Phil

All the pictures of Jesus were renaissance paintings, which made Jesus look like them, which is exactly what the shroud is. It's a total fake and I can't believe Christians are gullible to believe in stuff like it!

6 I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting. Isaiah 50:6 (KJV)


Christ had his beard plucked off! So why does this shroud have hair a beard?



As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
Isaiah 52:14 (KJV)


Messiah's appearance was marred such that He could scarcely be recognized as human!

 

[roaringkitten]

I completely agree baptistrw and phil.........The image of Christ in the Shroud is mans invention....

 

[suaso]

My idea about European paintings of Jesus is that a) They never describe what Jesus looked like physically, and b) Artists want to give people something that they can identify with on a level. That's what art is: an interpretation of reality. Some interpretations will be much more accurate than others. I myself am not a fan of EuroJesus. I have the advantage of education to tell me what a person of Jewish descent from the middle east probably looks like. Not everyone in time has, so they simply portrayed what they knew best or what they figured others could identify with best. When the Word became flesh, people for the first time in history could see God. He wasn't merely some transcendent being like he was to the Jews, who could not see God in the flesh, or the Muslims who would come to believe that it was absolutely reprehensible to believe God would ever become man and that Jesus certainly was not. This is why those two Religions, Islam especially, don't typically depict God in art. It is considered below God to take on material form, and blasphemy to depict God with material objects. We Christians know our God became incarnate in the person of Jesus Christ. He had a body, he had a form, and he became embodied to redeem what was corrupted in the flesh. People looked upon the face of God in the truest since of the idea. Naturually, people still want to look upon Jesus, but all we can do is create art. As we remember a long gone loved one or a very distant friend with photographs, art can serve as a reminder of the Word that became like us in all but sin. Are the pictures themselve Jesus? Nope. Nothing more than photograph in a frame for all intents and purposes.

But as for EuroJesus...well...I personally like to think that Our Lord may have looked more like this:

This is from the Hagia Sophia, a church built in Turkey when Turkey was a Christian land under the authority of the Byzantine Empire during the 530s AD. It was later taken over by Muslims in the 1450s and was then turned into a mosque. All the images painted by the Byzantine Christians were covered in plaster and the floors covered in carpets to hide the mosaics and stuff that were made into the floor. In 1935 the government of Turkey ordered the mosque to be turned into a museum, and the plaster and carpets were removed to reveal priceless treasures of Christian craftsmanship made for the greater glory of God. Societies used to create everything to give glory to God in some way, saying "these are the talents you have given me, Lord, so I make this to honor you." Now we build statues of dead presidents, dead poets, dead activists, abstract designs that are supposed to represent some vague idea, buildings that are designed only for the function of space...nothing beautiful of our Living God.

 

[christiancanadian]

It shouldn't change anyone's belief whether it was proven real or fake. Did you know there are people who have previously worhipped the actual shroud?? So wrong to do.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5695230248842066515&hl=en

Anyway, there is a very good video on the shroud. I think it may be real after the evidence presented...All praise and worship to our living Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ!
glenn

 

[Charles]

Does not the book of John state that the clothes were at the bottom of the slab and the napkin at the top; therefore Jesus was not buried in a shroud.The same with Lazarus ; in the manner of the buial of the Jews at that period of time.

 

[MahogonySnail]

People have missed the obvious.

It belonged to a Mr Turin.

End of argument.

 

[suaso]

We may have missed the "obvious" because it is in fact not obvious and untrue:

"Turin derives its name from a Celtic word tau, meaning mountain. Torino was founded almost 2400 years ago by a Celtic tribe, the Taurini. The Taurini conquered much of France and part of Spain before heading into what is known today as Italy. In Italian torino means "little bull". The bull is still part of the city standard (flag) to this day...Hannibal, during his Alpine campaign, destroyed much of the city. However, by the first century A.D., Turin was on its way to being rebuilt. The Castra Taurinorum, a military camp for the Roman army, was created at this time. Castra Taurinorum was eventually dedicated to Augustus Caesar and renamed Augusta Taurinorum (cerca 28 A.D.). The square city plan with streets ending in right angles that was a Roman trademark still thrives in modern Torino" - Life in Italy.com

"Turin, which is the capital of the Piedmont region and the fourth largest city in Italy, is located at the foot of the Alps where the Po and the Dora Riparia rivers meet in north western Italy. The city itself was originally founded in pre-Roman times by the Taurini and was initially called Taurisia. During the Roman period it was made a military camp and renamed Augusta Taurinorum." - Italiansrus.com

"In the first century BC (probably 28 BC), the Romans created a military camp (Castra Taurinorum), later dedicated to Augustus (Augusta Taurinorum). The typical Roman street grid can still be seen in the modern city. Turin reached about 5,000 inhabitants at the time, all living inside the high walls."
- From Wikipedia...unfortunately...

The City is called Turino in Italian, and it was called Turin in Latin before that (-orum is the genative ending of the name Turin to denote that the word for camp - castrum - belongs to the city of Turin: Camp Turin, as in the example in the italics from the quote). The Shroud is in Turin, so we say it is of Turin, ie, it "belongs to Turin (the city)."

There was no "Mr. Turin." This is like saying that the London bridge belonged to a Mr. London.

 

[suaso]

Also, as to the cloth:
“Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury” (John 19:40, KJV)

At one point he was wrapped in a cloth. Apperently, sometime after the resurrection, they cloth was cast aside, and as it would seem, neatly folded. I guess Jesus was a good about being neat and tidy.

 

[Baptistrw]

We may have missed the "obvious" because it is in fact not obvious and untrue:

"Turin derives its name from a Celtic word tau, meaning mountain. Torino was founded almost 2400 years ago by a Celtic tribe, the Taurini. The Taurini conquered much of France and part of Spain before heading into what is known today as Italy. In Italian torino means "little bull". The bull is still part of the city standard (flag) to this day...Hannibal, during his Alpine campaign, destroyed much of the city. However, by the first century A.D., Turin was on its way to being rebuilt. The Castra Taurinorum, a military camp for the Roman army, was created at this time. Castra Taurinorum was eventually dedicated to Augustus Caesar and renamed Augusta Taurinorum (cerca 28 A.D.). The square city plan with streets ending in right angles that was a Roman trademark still thrives in modern Torino" - Life in Italy.com

"Turin, which is the capital of the Piedmont region and the fourth largest city in Italy, is located at the foot of the Alps where the Po and the Dora Riparia rivers meet in north western Italy. The city itself was originally founded in pre-Roman times by the Taurini and was initially called Taurisia. During the Roman period it was made a military camp and renamed Augusta Taurinorum." - Italiansrus.com

"In the first century BC (probably 28 BC), the Romans created a military camp (Castra Taurinorum), later dedicated to Augustus (Augusta Taurinorum). The typical Roman street grid can still be seen in the modern city. Turin reached about 5,000 inhabitants at the time, all living inside the high walls."
- From Wikipedia...unfortunately...

The City is called Turino in Italian, and it was called Turin in Latin before that (-orum is the genative ending of the name Turin to denote that the word for camp - castrum - belongs to the city of Turin: Camp Turin, as in the example in the italics from the quote). The Shroud is in Turin, so we say it is of Turin, ie, it "belongs to Turin (the city)."

There was no "Mr. Turin." This is like saying that the London bridge belonged to a Mr. London.

He was being sarcastic.

 

[MahogonySnail]

I never knew the London bridge belonged to a Mr London!

 

[suaso]

Baptistrw: "He was being sarcastic" Unfortunately, it is extremely difficult to tell when people are being sarcastic online. Mahogonysnail, if you were being sarcastic, I apologize.

 

[Baptistrw]

Baptistrw: "He was being sarcastic" Unfortunately, it is extremely difficult to tell when people are being sarcastic online. Mahogonysnail, if you were being sarcastic, I apologize.

You just gotta know people, I've known Mahogany for awhile, and I really don't think he's ignorant enough to believe the shroud is named after a guy named turin lol

 

[suaso]

lol I didn't either...but it is the internet afterall! One never really knows til one asks (or in my case, is told).

 

[Baptistrw]

lol I didn't either...but it is the internet afterall! One never really knows til one asks (or in my case, is told).

After you converse with people you'll get to know their style.

 

[MahogonySnail]

sorry suaso, I can be sarcastic sometimes. I did get a laugh out of your lengthy reply though, to convince me that it wasn't Mr Turin's. thanks for that.

 

[Baptistrw]

sorry suaso, I can be sarcastic sometimes. I did get a laugh out of your lengthy reply though, to convince me that it wasn't Mr Turin's. thanks for that.

I did as well lol