The Sin of Pacifism

[Jason0047]

Here is a discussion I had with an atheist:

Atheist:

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: alt2, bgcolor: #FFFFFF"]Which goes back to the problem: According to you murdering infants isn't okay unless God does it (or tells you to). Anyway why risk a life that could lead to damnation when you can simply fast track a young one to paradise? Yahweh did it all the time. So did the Hebrews.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

My Reply:

No, the church is forbidden in taking life. They are commanded by God to love their enemies and to pray for them. We are to bless those that curse us. Jesus said to turn the other cheek if somebody smites you. We are not to repay evil for evil but we are to conquer evil with good. For believers today are under a New Covenant with God in Jesus Christ.

Israel was a political power or nation where God was to be their King. This nation was literally supposed to be the arm of God. The church is not a political power or nation like the Israelite Nation during the Old Testament times. Yes, it is true. God did command the Israelites to wipe out children. But you have to understand the context and situation, though. God did not just tell them to kill only children. No doubt many of these children were damaged by the horrible sinful ways of their parents. These children no doubt would have corrupted the Israelites with the sin that they had learned from their parents. These children also probably carried many diseases like the animals because many of them were sexually abused in horrible pagan rituals to false gods, too. So the health of the Israelites was at risk. Also, some of these tribes attacked the Israelites in a cowardly fashion from behind (Where the woman and children stayed). No doubt, the Israelites children were probably killed at times during these battles. Can you imagine if your child was killed by evil people? What if your best friend's child was killed, too? How would you feel?

For example: What if a bunch of children today had let loose a deadly virus inside a mountain and if one of them had gotten out, they would in effect put the whole world at risk in being killed. Would the nearby containment team be wrong for shutting them inside the mountain? Would the President of the United States be wrong for ordering a missile strike against that mountain if he knew that one of those children was about to get out (Thereby killing most everyone on the planet)?

This is similar to what God was doing with the Israelites. Except the deadly disease was sin and infection that would lead the hearts of the Israelites away from God and put at risk the line of the Messiah which was to save all mankind by dying on the cross for man's sins.

As for God taking life: Again, you do not understand that God taking life is not the same as a man taking life. They are in no way the same thing. God created all life. Man did not create all life. God owns all of creation. Man does not own all of creation. God decides who ultimately lives and who dies in this life. Man does not ultimately decide who lives and dies within this life. For even believers die. However, they go to be with God, though. Whereas the unbeliever is placed in a prison and is eventually destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

 

[Deadtosin]

Indeed but feeding others and taking care of myself are things that are good in nature. Even scolding my child or punishing him is recommended in the Bible.

On the flip side, I don't think it is good to "do evil so that good may come". That evil is killing someone or even purposely severely injuring them.

Punching them or pushing them I don't have as much of a problem with but in the same instance I think it is always better to trust God.

I think trusting God and acting go hand in hand. If I am hungry I trust God and then He sends someone to feed me. I am about to drown and God sends someone to rescue me. A child is about to be kidnapped and God sends me to stop him. The Lord works in mysterious ways. I find it far more scary that we as christians have set notions of what we will do and will not do. Well Gods ways are higher than our ways, His thoughts higher than our thoughts, don't you think we should leave ourselves open to be used in ways we may not be able to foresee?

 

[Deadtosin]

Here is a discussion I had with an atheist:

Atheist:

[TABLE="width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TD="class: alt2, bgcolor: #FFFFFF"]Which goes back to the problem: According to you murdering infants isn't okay unless God does it (or tells you to). Anyway why risk a life that could lead to damnation when you can simply fast track a young one to paradise? Yahweh did it all the time. So did the Hebrews.[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

My Reply:

No, the church is forbidden in taking life. They are commanded by God to love their enemies and to pray for them. We are to bless those that curse us. Jesus said to turn the other cheek if somebody smites you. We are not to repay evil for evil but we are to conquer evil with good. For believers today are under a New Covenant with God in Jesus Christ.

Israel was a political power or nation where God was to be their King. This nation was literally supposed to be the arm of God. The church is not a political power or nation like the Israelite Nation during the Old Testament times. Yes, it is true. God did command the Israelites to wipe out children. But you have to understand the context and situation, though. God did not just tell them to kill only children. No doubt many of these children were damaged by the horrible sinful ways of their parents. These children no doubt would have corrupted the Israelites with the sin that they had learned from their parents. These children also probably carried many diseases like the animals because many of them were sexually abused in horrible pagan rituals to false gods, too. So the health of the Israelites was at risk. Also, some of these tribes attacked the Israelites in a cowardly fashion from behind (Where the woman and children stayed). No doubt, the Israelites children were probably killed at times during these battles. Can you imagine if your child was killed by evil people? What if your best friend's child was killed, too? How would you feel?

For example: What if a bunch of children today had let loose a deadly virus inside a mountain and if one of them had gotten out, they would in effect put the whole world at risk in being killed. Would the nearby containment team be wrong for shutting them inside the mountain? Would the President of the United States be wrong for ordering a missile strike against that mountain if he knew that one of those children was about to get out (Thereby killing most everyone on the planet)?

This is similar to what God was doing with the Israelites. Except the deadly disease was sin and infection that would lead the hearts of the Israelites away from God and put at risk the line of the Messiah which was to save all mankind by dying on the cross for man's sins.

As for God taking life: Again, you do not understand that God taking life is not the same as a man taking life. They are in no way the same thing. God created all life. Man did not create all life. God owns all of creation. Man does not own all of creation. God decides who ultimately lives and who dies in this life. Man does not ultimately decide who lives and dies within this life. For even believers die. However, they go to be with God, though. Whereas the unbeliever is placed in a prison and is eventually destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

Jason, please talk directly to me man, I began reading your post and started reading the same dry conversations we've been having. Either address my questions directly or don't bother with me bro.

 

[Jason0047]

Here is a discussion I had with an atheist

No, the church is forbidden in taking life. They are commanded by God to love their enemies and to pray for them. We are to bless those that curse us. Jesus said to turn the other cheek if somebody smites you. We are not to repay evil for evil but we are to conquer evil with good. For believers today are under a New Covenant with God in Jesus Christ.

Israel was a political power or nation where God was to be their King. This nation was literally supposed to be the arm of God. The church is not a political power or nation like the Israelite Nation during the Old Testament times. Yes, it is true. God did command the Israelites to wipe out children. But you have to understand the context and situation, though. God did not just tell them to kill only children. No doubt many of these children were damaged by the horrible sinful ways of their parents. These children no doubt would have corrupted the Israelites with the sin that they had learned from their parents. These children also probably carried many diseases like the animals because many of them were sexually abused in horrible pagan rituals to false gods, too. So the health of the Israelites was at risk. Also, some of these tribes attacked the Israelites in a cowardly fashion from behind (Where the woman and children stayed). No doubt, the Israelites children were probably killed at times during these battles. Can you imagine if your child was killed by evil people? What if your best friend's child was killed, too? How would you feel?

For example: What if a bunch of children today had let loose a deadly virus inside a mountain and if one of them had gotten out, they would in effect put the whole world at risk in being killed. Would the nearby containment team be wrong for shutting them inside the mountain? Would the President of the United States be wrong for ordering a missile strike against that mountain if he knew that one of those children was about to get out (Thereby killing most everyone on the planet)?

This is similar to what God was doing with the Israelites. Except the deadly disease was sin and infection that would lead the hearts of the Israelites away from God and put at risk the line of the Messiah which was to save all mankind by dying on the cross for man's sins.

As for God taking life: Again, you do not understand that God taking life is not the same as a man taking life. They are in no way the same thing. God created all life. Man did not create all life. God owns all of creation. Man does not own all of creation. God decides who ultimately lives and who dies in this life. Man does not ultimately decide who lives and dies within this life. For even believers die. However, they go to be with God, though. Whereas the unbeliever is placed in a prison and is eventually destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

The reason I brought up this discussion is for a couple of reasons:

#1. God asks us to do things that may not always make sense at first.
#2. Faith is not by walking by sight.
#3. Without faith, it is impossible to please Him.
#4. God is sovereign over His creation.
#5. God is the giver and taker of all life; So if it is meant for somebody to die, then you cannot stop it.

 

[Ella85]

Blain I love you and all my friend but you cannot calm someone down who has a gun just randomly shooting people. Notice that in most of these mass shooting situations the killer killed himself.

Especially when they are possessed by or worship Satan

 

[Ecclesiastik]

I think trusting God and acting go hand in hand. If I am hungry I trust God and then He sends someone to feed me. I am about to drown and God sends someone to rescue me. A child is about to be kidnapped and God sends me to stop him. The Lord works in mysterious ways. I find it far more scary that we as christians have set notions of what we will do and will not do. Well Gods ways are higher than our ways, His thoughts higher than our thoughts, don't you think we should leave ourselves open to be used in ways we may not be able to foresee?

I understand what you are saying and I love you brother! Just wanted to say that in case we've been at our throats too hard.

I think we should close the door only to what is against God's will. I don't think it's within God's will for His children to be taking lives in any circumstance. But there is a degree of truth in what you are saying. I will think further on punching/pushing.

God bless

 

[Ecclesiastik]

Especially when they are possessed by or worship Satan

Then it's a matter of rebuking the demon rather than the person.

 

[Jason0047]

Jason, please talk directly to me man, I began reading your post and started reading the same dry conversations we've been having. Either address my questions directly or don't bother with me bro.

I use examples to make a point. If you have a specific point that you felt I did not address, then I will be happy to answer it. But you have to let me know which questions I did not address directly.

 

[Jason0047]

#5. God is the giver and taker of all life; So if it is meant for somebody to die, then you cannot stop it.

Job 1:21
"And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD."

 

[Deadtosin]

The reason I brought up this discussion is for a couple of reasons:

#1. God asks us to do things that may not always make sense at first.
#2. Faith is not by walking by sight.
#3. Without faith, it is impossible to please Him.
#4. God is sovereign over His creation.
#5. God is the giver and taker of all life; So if it is meant for somebody to die, then you cannot stop it.

I agree with all of that. None of that clashes with my beliefs.

1. God does ask us to do things that may not always make sense (you think about that as well)
2. Faith is not walking by sight. I live every day like that. That adds to my intrigue about life Never know whats going to happen, I love it and I fully trust God.
3. I have faith.
4.God is sovereign. Of course He is, that doesn't mean He doesn't want us to do things. I'm sure you aren't suggesting that.
5.God is the giver and taker of life, if it's meant to be for someone to die I can't stop it.

You are right sir. However you miss a simple angle to that. If God wanted them to die, He probably wouldn't have sent me there in the first place. Maybe the reason He sent me was because it wasn't their time to die.

 

[Jason0047]

Job 1:21
"And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD."

Sooooo..... If the Lord is the giver and taker of life ultimately, how exactly does your fists of fury and your sawed off shot gun attached to your arm and your pet sharks with laser beams attached to their foreheads within your castle mote truly help? Do you realize that if God wanted to stop you, He coud easily do so?

 

[Deadtosin]

Sooooo..... If the Lord is the giver and taker of life ultimately, how exactly does your fists of fury and your sawed off shot gun attached to your arm really help? Do you realize that if God wanted to stop you, He coud easily do so.

Jason, if God wants to feed the homeless he doesn't need me to buy them a burger either. You do realize He wants us to act?

 

[Jason0047]

Jason, if God wants to feed the homeless he doesn't need me to buy them a burger either. You do realize He wants us to act?

God can end all world hunger right now if He wanted to. He easily fed the Israelites manna (bread from Heaven). He can do the same for everyone else if He wanted to. But that's not the same thing as disobeying Jesus so as to be violent (When He commanded us not to be), though.

 

[Deadtosin]

I stopped serial killers in Phoenix because God sent me there and He delivered them in to my hands. No violence had to occur, but before you think "victory" know this. I would never have been walking around out there late at night looking for these guys if I wasn't willing to physically act if indeed I stumbled across a situation. God made me exactly the way I am. God actually led me in to training in martial arts in the first place. That night I didn't have to touch them, but God got His point across to them through me. My grandmother and her sister both told me similar stories to what you are saying. God doesn't want you to do this, God wouldn't approve of you laying your hands on them. In the end I ignored them, knowing what I had to do to feel like I was right with God, and you know what? He delivered them into my hand.

 

[Deadtosin]

God can end all world hunger right now if He wanted to. He easily fed the Israelites manna (bread from Heaven). He can do the same for everyone else if He wanted to. But that's not the same thing as disobeying Jesus so as to be violent (When He commanded us not to be), though.

You are missing my point. God can end world hunger, should we stop feeding the poor? of course not. My point is simple. Just because God CAN do something Himself, doesn't mean He won't use us to accomplish His same purpose. God doesn't delight in murderers, yes indeed if He wants to stop them He can use many ways. Sometimes He uses us.

 

[Ecclesiastik]

Jason, if God wants to feed the homeless he doesn't need me to buy them a burger either. You do realize He wants us to act?

Deadtosin, I think His point is that God has commanded us to feed the homeless, it's a test of our selfishness. But I don't think it would be selfish to defend someone nor do I think it would be a trial. That is our natural instinct. I think the trial would be relying on God and laying our weapons down.

I know you agree but only to a certain extent.

 

[Deadtosin]

Deadtosin, I think His point is that God has commanded us to feed the homeless, it's a test of our selfishness. But I don't think it would be selfish to defend someone nor do I think it would be a trial. That is our natural instinct. I think the trial would be relying on God and laying our weapons down.

I know you agree but only to a certain extent.

We all play different roles for God. God went out of His way to make sure I understood what fear and helplessness as a child was. In fact it was our earliest meaningful conversation. I made a pact with God. I am bound. You show me any scripture that says not to protect a child. No "turn the other cheek" no "eye for an eye tooth for a tooth" no examples of people not fighting (for there are examples of people fighting as well) Show me scripture that says it's better to let a child die than to strike someone. P.S. "There is a time to kill" "there is a time for everything."

 

[Deadtosin]

Deadtosin, I think His point is that God has commanded us to feed the homeless, it's a test of our selfishness. But I don't think it would be selfish to defend someone nor do I think it would be a trial. That is our natural instinct. I think the trial would be relying on God and laying our weapons down.

I know you agree but only to a certain extent.

Standing up to a "beast" for lack of a better word is a trial my friend. Our natural instinct is not to step into harms way.

 

[Ecclesiastik]

Standing up to a "beast" for lack of a better word is a trial my friend. Our natural instinct is not to step into harms way.

A fair retort. But this would only be in the case if you were a dis-interested third party. "Not my kid." "Not my wife." "Not my problem."

 

[Jason0047]

I agree with all of that. None of that clashes with my beliefs.

1. God does ask us to do things that may not always make sense (you think about that as well)

But, after you take that step of faith, God will give you the understanding. Maybe not immediately but in time He will. But if you act by sight instead of faith, then you are not pleasing God.

2. Faith is not walking by sight. I live every day like that. That adds to my intrigue about life Never know whats going to happen, I love it and I fully trust God.

Carrying a gun is not walking by sight unseen in a God who can protect you.

3. I have faith.

That is good. Do you have faith in God to protect you without a gun? What if you forgot your gun? What if you couldn't move your arms? What then? Buy some sharks wth laser beams on their foreheads?

4.God is sovereign. Of course He is, that doesn't mean He doesn't want us to do things. I'm sure you aren't suggesting that.

Jesus says to seek ye first the Kingdom of God and all these things will be provided for you. Paul was stoned. Yet God kept him alive. A young man fell out a window, yet Paul was able to bring him back from the dead. See, that's what you are not getting. You think God needs your weapons. He doesn't. He can bring back the dead.

5.God is the giver and taker of life, if it's meant to be for someone to die I can't stop it.

You are right sir. However you miss a simple angle to that. If God wanted them to die, He probably wouldn't have sent me there in the first place. Maybe the reason He sent me was because it wasn't their time to die.

Do you really think that you can thwart the Almighty's plans? If God wanted to stop you from saving someone, He can very well do so, dear sir. God is sovereign. Even over you and your plan to save people. Remember, how Paul was forbidden by the Holy Ghost to preach in Asia, but was guided to go to Macedonia? In other words, it is up to God who we save and don't save. In fact, actually, we don't even really do the saving, either. We plant seeds and God gives the increase.