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Well, I cannot say that I agree with the notion that "sons of God" are synonymous with the stars in heaven. There is simply nothing in this text that helps us define 'sons of God'. We have no more right here to assign its definition to angels than we do to assign it to man. The only thing we have to go on is how this term is used elsewhere and scripture where to subject is clearly defined.
If you compare to other scriptures found elsewhere it is fairly clear that Genesis 6 is speaking about fallen angels.
Jude 1:6
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
2 Peter 2:4
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
(Though the focus of this next passage is modesty, it is perhaps the best for showing a clear connection to Genesis 6.)
1 Corinthians 11:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
(I know that the fallen angels topic is very popular these days, even among the unlearned, perhaps because of a certain tv show. This is even a small matter since they have all ready been dealt with. So I think it is wise when on the topic of angels to always remember this verse.)
1 Corinthians 6:3
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
Jude 1:6
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
2 Peter 2:4
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
(Though the focus of this next passage is modesty, it is perhaps the best for showing a clear connection to Genesis 6.)
1 Corinthians 11:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
(I know that the fallen angels topic is very popular these days, even among the unlearned, perhaps because of a certain tv show. This is even a small matter since they have all ready been dealt with. So I think it is wise when on the topic of angels to always remember this verse.)
1 Corinthians 6:3
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
They are parallel in the passage. "Shouting for joy" parallels "sang in chorus," and "the sons of God" parallel the "morning stars." (Just for the record here, I don't believe stars are literally divine beings/angels). This is typical parallelism found throughout Hebrew poetry. Not only is the parallelism pretty obvious, but in Ancient Near Eastern cosmology, the stars were often thought of as some sort of semi-divine beings. There are other places in the bible as well (though admittedly not many) that suggest this sort of cosmology:
Is 14:13 You said to yourself,[SUP]
[/SUP]“I will climb up to the sky.
Above the stars of El[SUP]
[/SUP]I will set up my throne.
I will rule on the mountain of assembly
on the remote slopes of Zaphon.
The claim of the king of Babylon in Isaiah 14 is that he was equal with God. Verse 14 makes sense within this context when it's understood that the stars of El were thought to be some sort of divine beings, and that the King of Babylon would set himself up over them - as in rule over them.
It shows up again in Job as well. The parallelism is easy to spot:
Job15:15 If God places no trust in his holy ones,[SUP]
[/SUP]if even the heavens are not pure in his eyes,
And here again in 25:
25:4 How then can a human being be righteous before God?
How can one born of a woman be pure?
25:5 If even the moon is not bright,
and the stars are not pure as far as he is concerned,[SUP]
[/SUP]25:6 how much less a mortal man, who is but a maggot –
a son of man, who is only a worm!”
If it's understood within the framework of ancient near eastern cosmology, the argument makes perfect sense. If even the divine beings aren't righteous, how can a human possibly be righteous? It makes no sense if he's talking about inanimate conglomerations of rocks and gas. The argument wouldn't even function to be understandable if it were saying: how can a human being be righteous if the gaseous objects in the sky aren't righteous. Well, I don't think literal stars and planets can be righteous or unrighteous given that they are rocks and gas. But if you understand the cosmological framework Job and his friends are operating in, then it's easily understandable.
I'm only saying this because it was previously said that those Christians who take Job to be just "Wisdom Literature" are wrong and should take it literally. My counter argument, since I fall in that category, is that if you're going to take it literally, you have to go whole-hog and say that the stars, planets and heavenly bodies are literally divine beings.
Is 14:13 You said to yourself,[SUP]
[/SUP]“I will climb up to the sky.
Above the stars of El[SUP]
[/SUP]I will set up my throne.
I will rule on the mountain of assembly
on the remote slopes of Zaphon.
The claim of the king of Babylon in Isaiah 14 is that he was equal with God. Verse 14 makes sense within this context when it's understood that the stars of El were thought to be some sort of divine beings, and that the King of Babylon would set himself up over them - as in rule over them.
It shows up again in Job as well. The parallelism is easy to spot:
Job15:15 If God places no trust in his holy ones,[SUP]
[/SUP]if even the heavens are not pure in his eyes,
And here again in 25:
25:4 How then can a human being be righteous before God?
How can one born of a woman be pure?
25:5 If even the moon is not bright,
and the stars are not pure as far as he is concerned,[SUP]
[/SUP]25:6 how much less a mortal man, who is but a maggot –
a son of man, who is only a worm!”
If it's understood within the framework of ancient near eastern cosmology, the argument makes perfect sense. If even the divine beings aren't righteous, how can a human possibly be righteous? It makes no sense if he's talking about inanimate conglomerations of rocks and gas. The argument wouldn't even function to be understandable if it were saying: how can a human being be righteous if the gaseous objects in the sky aren't righteous. Well, I don't think literal stars and planets can be righteous or unrighteous given that they are rocks and gas. But if you understand the cosmological framework Job and his friends are operating in, then it's easily understandable.
I'm only saying this because it was previously said that those Christians who take Job to be just "Wisdom Literature" are wrong and should take it literally. My counter argument, since I fall in that category, is that if you're going to take it literally, you have to go whole-hog and say that the stars, planets and heavenly bodies are literally divine beings.
Originally Posted by JimmieD
In Job 38:7, the "sons of God" parallels the "morning stars." In Job 38, they weren't understood to be men, they were the stars in heaven.
38:7 when the morning stars sang in chorus,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
38:7 when the morning stars sang in chorus,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
surely the morning stars are parabolic for angels. Heavenly beings are often seen as stars. And stars don't sing. In view of Job 1-2 we have no grounds for doubting that the sons of the Elohim are angels. Elohim is used of heavenly beings.
Originally Posted by GodIsSalvation
If you compare to other scriptures found elsewhere it is fairly clear that Genesis 6 is speaking about fallen angels.
Jude 1:6
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
2 Peter 2:4
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
(Though the focus of this next passage is modesty, it is perhaps the best for showing a clear connection to Genesis 6.)
1 Corinthians 11:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
(I know that the fallen angels topic is very popular these days, even among the unlearned, perhaps because of a certain tv show. This is even a small matter since they have all ready been dealt with. So I think it is wise when on the topic of angels to always remember this verse.)
1 Corinthians 6:3
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
Jude 1:6
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
2 Peter 2:4
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
(Though the focus of this next passage is modesty, it is perhaps the best for showing a clear connection to Genesis 6.)
1 Corinthians 11:10
[SUP]10 [/SUP]For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
(I know that the fallen angels topic is very popular these days, even among the unlearned, perhaps because of a certain tv show. This is even a small matter since they have all ready been dealt with. So I think it is wise when on the topic of angels to always remember this verse.)
1 Corinthians 6:3
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
We cannot interpret Old Testament phrases in the light of the New. The Old Testament is Israelite/Jewish. In the New 'sons of God' are those who have been born of God. It would have been confusing to call angels 'sons of theou'.
The only place where we certainly know what sons of the Elohim represents is Job 1-2. it seems to me to settle the matter.
I would like to say thank you to Kenc. for the link to Mr. Bartholomew's research,I have a file of mine own research and I will put it in with the portions of things to further research. Again Mr. Bartholomew states in his first paragraph that he was not at first attempting to date the book of Job but in another paper he was writing he ended up writing his dating process of Job. This makes sense then for it to seem as though it "wanders off the subject",but it actually doesn't it light of the paper he was originally writing(it stays within the subject of his paper).
This I understand this because several years ago I began to do the same process beginning with the 4 mentioned friends of Job based on Temanite,naamathite ect. and ended up fairly close to the same time frame. The difference was our reasons for dating Job mine stemmed from the statement made to Jesus about the truth setting them free (John 8:33 KJV) and them stating that "we have our father Abraham,and have never been in bondage",,,(bondage in Egypt?) but as we know not every one who is of the circumcision was in bondage in Egypt,i.e. Esau,Ishmael ect.
I suppose though the results are about the same(depending on the calender used) should put the story around 12th 14th generation from Noah,so if,,,
(1) Noah
(2) Shem
(3)Arpachshad
(4)Salah
(5)Eber
(6)Peleg
(7)Reu
(8)Serug
(9)Nahor
(10)Terah
(11)Abraham Abraham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(12) Isaac
(13) Jacob
(14)Judah
(15)Perez
(16)Hezron
(17)Ram
(18)Barachel
(19)Elihu Zophar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
or,
(13)Jacob
(14)Benjamin
(15)Bela
(16)Naaman
(17)Zophar Zophar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
or,the others have gaps in their geneoligies but most probbably are the ones mr. b. has(same foggy grey area I found),,,
This I understand this because several years ago I began to do the same process beginning with the 4 mentioned friends of Job based on Temanite,naamathite ect. and ended up fairly close to the same time frame. The difference was our reasons for dating Job mine stemmed from the statement made to Jesus about the truth setting them free (John 8:33 KJV) and them stating that "we have our father Abraham,and have never been in bondage",,,(bondage in Egypt?) but as we know not every one who is of the circumcision was in bondage in Egypt,i.e. Esau,Ishmael ect.
I suppose though the results are about the same(depending on the calender used) should put the story around 12th 14th generation from Noah,so if,,,
(1) Noah
(2) Shem
(3)Arpachshad
(4)Salah
(5)Eber
(6)Peleg
(7)Reu
(8)Serug
(9)Nahor
(10)Terah
(11)Abraham Abraham - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
(12) Isaac
(13) Jacob
(14)Judah
(15)Perez
(16)Hezron
(17)Ram
(18)Barachel
(19)Elihu Zophar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
or,
(13)Jacob
(14)Benjamin
(15)Bela
(16)Naaman
(17)Zophar Zophar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
or,the others have gaps in their geneoligies but most probbably are the ones mr. b. has(same foggy grey area I found),,,
here is the link for (19)Elihu Bildad - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I did not past it correctly
don't chase the "sons of God",(research wise),,, find out where the "giants,the sons of the fallen angels are",when (match Job) in the timeline,he(satin) is comparing that man/men/Job will worship God because he gifts them with things. so the thought is that if they were removed they would curse God. God shows him Job,,,,,,,but if we set into account why satin said this and compre it to every thing we can find about the "children,giants" the opposite is happening to them,,,,,,,,,,,
They were driven out of Seir(deut.2) and out of Ar(deyt.2),,,notice it corresponds to the same dating of the "book of Job". This is a fulfiment of what was promised to Abraham (Gen. 15:16),that is they would be driven out and his children would dwell there,this is what satin is going to and fro up and down ect. and seeing. So his reaction is "they love you becouse you bless them,mine dont becousre you took their land and thier things,so God shows him Job,,,
They were driven out of Seir(deut.2) and out of Ar(deyt.2),,,notice it corresponds to the same dating of the "book of Job". This is a fulfiment of what was promised to Abraham (Gen. 15:16),that is they would be driven out and his children would dwell there,this is what satin is going to and fro up and down ect. and seeing. So his reaction is "they love you becouse you bless them,mine dont becousre you took their land and thier things,so God shows him Job,,,
Aye, but they do show that clearly there were fallen angels at one point, and even a connection to women. The only event in the Bible that matches these references is Genesis 6. We also know from the verses in Job 1, which have all ready been posted, that sons of God can be a term for angels. So it is very clear exactly what they are, what they did, and why they are bound in chains of darkness until the day of judgement.
No, this is not what Jude 7 says. Look at the construction of the text. "Which likewise indulged in sexual immorality" is not linking Sodom and Gomorrah to the angels who left their first estate, it is linking the behavior of the "surrounding cities" to the like behavior of Sodom and Gomorrah. The sin of the angels is specified simply as having left their "own position of authority" not sexual immorality.
"just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire."
"just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire."
I binged - do stars sing- and came up info
that stars do make a kind of music sound.
a few links
BBC NEWS | Science & Environment | Team records 'music' from stars
Do stars SING? Surface plasma produces high-pitched 'whistle' when it comes in contact with cosmic debris | Daily Mail Online
Sounds of the Stars - Windows to the Universe
Aye, my point on Jude is not the connection to the women. The point of the reference in Jude is that clearly and unambiguously it states that certain angels left their first estate, hence fallen angels, and are now rightfully bound in chains because of it.
The connection to women comes from Paul's letter to the Corinthians as to why Paul thinks women ought have power on their head, because of the angels.
EDIT: Then with Peter's statement that the fallen angels are punished for sinning, this links the two very well. The only event in the OT that corresponds to the statements that Peter, Paul, and Jude make is Genesis 6.
The connection to women comes from Paul's letter to the Corinthians as to why Paul thinks women ought have power on their head, because of the angels.
EDIT: Then with Peter's statement that the fallen angels are punished for sinning, this links the two very well. The only event in the OT that corresponds to the statements that Peter, Paul, and Jude make is Genesis 6.
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There is no question that there are fallen angels but there is no text of scripture that says they were assigned to the earth after having fallen nor is there any text that tells is their sin was fornication. In fact 2Pt 2:4 tells us this, "For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;"
lol,actually I made a mistake again,,,the link for #19 should be to "Elihu" not zophar or bildad. Bildad is from Eber's branch and dwelt where the Shashu dwelt. I had that window open also because the Shashu were spoken of by the Egyptians several times where they describe them as giants 4-5 cubits tall. the link to #19 should be Elihu (Job) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Nay, there is a text. It is Genesis 6.
They were not assigned to earth indeed, but left their first estate. Why did they leave their first estate? Why does Paul think women should have power on their head because of angels? It is very simple when you take it all together as a whole. For this cause are they now assigned to chains of darkness until the judgement day.
They were not assigned to earth indeed, but left their first estate. Why did they leave their first estate? Why does Paul think women should have power on their head because of angels? It is very simple when you take it all together as a whole. For this cause are they now assigned to chains of darkness until the judgement day.