the standard of righteousness

[randyk]

It is clear that you are hung up on the Sabbath.

Perhaps one day you will understand that observing the Ten and the love contined in them cannot be an affront to our Lord, Jesus Yeshua. When God says the Seventh day is now the first, then I will hear , but not men saying this is what He says.

Asfor observing the Sabbath, Christians have always called their day of Worship the Sabbath, so as long as they believe it is in the sight of God, it is just fine. Just as my day of worship and dres will always be the day set by God, Himself.

As for 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5, in my faith I may say done, done, done, done, done. Those with the will of God inscribed upon thier hearts truly know this.

Suit yourself, but this is not orthodox Christian teaching. The New Testament is just that--a New Testament. It is *not* the Old one. You can try to fit Sabbath laws into the New Testament. But the apostles didn't do that, nor do the NT Scriptures say that. But you're welcome to do what you *want* to do, regardless of whether it is correct or not.

Col 2.16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Suit yourself, but this is not orthodox Christian teaching. The New Testament is just that--a New Testament. It is *not* the Old one. You can try to fit Sabbath laws into the New Testament. But the apostles didn't do that, nor do the NT Scriptures say that. But you're welcome to do what you *want* to do, regardless of whether it is correct or not.

difference in faith

“One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike.

Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord;

and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.

He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

 

[randyk]

difference in faith

“One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike.

Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord;

and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.

He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That's true. I won't find fault if someone wants to stop working one day a week because he or she thinks God is pleased with that. But it's another thing in terms of allowing a Christian to teach error in the Church, that we are, in any way, still under the Law of Moses.

The same person who said we shouldn't judge others in their confused doctrine had no qualm about declaring what he believed, that we are not under the Law. And he had no problem condemning those who tried to pass off legalism as the norm for the Church.

By this heretical teaching these false teachers are in fact judging Christians as being under a false Gospel themselves. And we have every right to defend ourselves with the truth, and by NT teaching.

Col 2.16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day... 8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

 

[randyk]

Col 2.16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day... 8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

What are the elemental spiritual forces of this world? I believe they are angelic and human choices that take place autonomously, ie apart from the Spirit of God. Instead of walking in God's word, the spirits of this world follow their own minds, and do not consult the mind of God. These "forces of the world" are in opposition to Christ, who is to be our sole arbitor of what is right in our choices. We must always conform our attitudes to Christ's Spirit, to ensure that we act in the right spirit.

Note that when Jews came into Christianity after being under the Law of Moses, they sometimes tried to draw along with them their Jewish traditions. And I'm not saying that is always wrong. But establishing tradition as a cover for independent judgment, in opposition to Christ's Spirit, is a return to the "elemental forces of this world."

To try to observe Sabbath, to get circumcised, or to observe any tradition of the Law, as if it it critical to, or a replacement of, walking in Christ, is a threat to returning to the forces of this world, or self-autonomy. Making rules for ourselves is as bad as "doing our own thing." Adopting traditions for rules, in place of consulting Christ, is replacing Christ with rules to govern our behavior as we wish.

 

[rayzor]

judge not [rebuke is ok] R love = rebuke listen over look value exhort

 

[Pilgrimshope]

That's true. I won't find fault if someone wants to stop working one day a week because he or she thinks God is pleased with that. But it's another thing in terms of allowing a Christian to teach error in the Church, that we are, in any way, still under the Law of Moses.

The same person who said we shouldn't judge others in their confused doctrine had no qualm about declaring what he believed, that we are not under the Law. And he had no problem condemning those who tried to pass off legalism as the norm for the Church.

By this heretical teaching these false teachers are in fact judging Christians as being under a false Gospel themselves. And we have every right to defend ourselves with the truth, and by NT teaching.

Col 2.16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day... 8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

more not error if you don’t agree is the thing what Paul is saying there is to make this more important than small differences like whether or not to honor an angels ordinance regarding a ot term of the truth

note just what Paul’s getting at its better not to argue over a sabbath because it causes doubt in thier faith , greater faith tells us the ordinances are gone , but the point there is this

“Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:1‬ ‭

weaker faith believes the ordinance is needed but strong faith sees this part only

“For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:17-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Issues like the ordinances of the sabbath day , feasts , new moons , clean and unclean foods aren’t meant to be universally right or wrong but it’s about the conscience of the believer and we don’t want to cause doubt in thier faith even if it’s weaker

“It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if I were to believe the sabbath is necassary I need to keep it because I need to walk by faith , if I understand every day is to be kept holy and the one day was a shadow foretelling the truth , the. I’m not obligated by my faith because it’s in Christ and not a written ordinance

I agree with you regarding the entire ot law , I myself have no yoke for the ordinance ms of Moses and the angels , but I also know not to insist another take my own conscience d faith upon them

if I cause doubt it’s going to lead then to not be acting in faith which becomes a violation of thier conscience and causes guilt.

thkngs like this are to be believed within and honored before God , our role is to never create a stumbling block for others who haven’t seen the same faith in Christ.

it’s very much between each believer and how thier faith has been constructed they have to as we all have to walk by faith and faith is within and personal to each .

we want to preach the gospel and let his word cut away the ordinances d yokes by growing our faith exclusively in him

that’s all I was saying take a look at Romans 14 as a complete chapter and you may see what I’m saying but it was only a thought to consider the kingdom is about living each other and bearing one another up , about righteousness in truth and joy in the Holy Ghost anyone who is serving God in those things needs no more approval from anyone else keeping a sabbath isn’t a sin , it would be however a sin if I believe I need to keep it and then didn’t if I no better I’m not condemned if I help my brother fix his car on a sabbath out of love

each day is the lords day and each day a sabbath of rest in Christ

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Col 2.16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day... 8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

What are the elemental spiritual forces of this world? I believe they are angelic and human choices that take place autonomously, ie apart from the Spirit of God. Instead of walking in God's word, the spirits of this world follow their own minds, and do not consult the mind of God. These "forces of the world" are in opposition to Christ, who is to be our sole arbitor of what is right in our choices. We must always conform our attitudes to Christ's Spirit, to ensure that we act in the right spirit.

Note that when Jews came into Christianity after being under the Law of Moses, they sometimes tried to draw along with them their Jewish traditions. And I'm not saying that is always wrong. But establishing tradition as a cover for independent judgment, in opposition to Christ's Spirit, is a return to the "elemental forces of this world."

To try to observe Sabbath, to get circumcised, or to observe any tradition of the Law, as if it it critical to, or a replacement of, walking in Christ, is a threat to returning to the forces of this world, or self-autonomy. Making rules for ourselves is as bad as "doing our own thing." Adopting traditions for rules, in place of consulting Christ, is replacing Christ with rules to govern our behavior as we wish.

Col 2.16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day... 8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

What are the elemental spiritual forces of this world? I believe they are angelic and human choices that take place autonomously, ie apart from the Spirit of God. Instead of walking in God's word, the spirits of this world follow their own minds, and do not consult the mind of God. These "forces of the world" are in opposition to Christ, who is to be our sole arbitor of what is right in our choices. We must always conform our attitudes to Christ's Spirit, to ensure that we act in the right spirit.

Note that when Jews came into Christianity after being under the Law of Moses, they sometimes tried to draw along with them their Jewish traditions. And I'm not saying that is always wrong. But establishing tradition as a cover for independent judgment, in opposition to Christ's Spirit, is a return to the "elemental forces of this world."

To try to observe Sabbath, to get circumcised, or to observe any tradition of the Law, as if it it critical to, or a replacement of, walking in Christ, is a threat to returning to the forces of this world, or self-autonomy. Making rules for ourselves is as bad as "doing our own thing." Adopting traditions for rules, in place of consulting Christ, is replacing Christ with rules to govern our behavior as we wish.

yes brother, I find it amazing that Stephen was killed for revealing the ordination of angels over the law , Paul approving and holding the coats of the men who killed him . And then later Paul began explaining the thing Stephen was stoned to death for saying

almost as if God continued what Stephen began explaining through Paul a phariseee approving of his death what I mean is Stephen was stoned for saying among others thkngs this to Jews

“And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands. Then God turned, and gave them up to worship the host of heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, O ye house of Israel, have ye offered to me slain beasts and sacrifices by the space of forty years in the wilderness? Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon.

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth. But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭7:41-43, 51, 53-59‬ ‭KJV‬‬

would recommend the entire speech he gave but what I mean is he was killed for saying it as it was Paul approving of his death for it but later Paul revealed it and continued unveiling it

just as Stephen had said happened became one of Paul’s main points

“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it came because they worshipped the calf and then God turned them over to the host of heaven. This was so offensive to them because they never understood what happened on the Mount between Moses and God when he left them to the angels until Christ should come forth to answer Abraham’s promise beforehand

“Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:14-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but the sabbath commandment was spoken by God first before the transgressed with the calf. This too is lost with the covenant but it isn’t worship of angels if someone honors the sabbath God spoke forst the Ten Commandments and then after the law of Moses was added for transgression of the first commandment

either way if we honor or don’t honor the seventh day rest we aren’t involved in angelic worship it only frees us from judging each other by the ordinance because of faith breaking forth


It’s pretty awesome what’s been done and how God carries his message from one disciple to another who was involved in killing him it seems Paul carried on and amplified the same message Stephen was killed for

 

[randyk]

more not error if you don’t agree is the thing what Paul is saying there is to make this more important than small differences like whether or not to honor an angels ordinance regarding a ot term of the truth

note just what Paul’s getting at its better not to argue over a sabbath because it causes doubt in thier faith , greater faith tells us the ordinances are gone , but the point there is this

“Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:1‬ ‭

weaker faith believes the ordinance is needed but strong faith sees this part only

“For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:17-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Issues like the ordinances of the sabbath day , feasts , new moons , clean and unclean foods aren’t meant to be universally right or wrong but it’s about the conscience of the believer and we don’t want to cause doubt in thier faith even if it’s weaker

“It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

if I were to believe the sabbath is necassary I need to keep it because I need to walk by faith , if I understand every day is to be kept holy and the one day was a shadow foretelling the truth , the. I’m not obligated by my faith because it’s in Christ and not a written ordinance

I agree with you regarding the entire ot law , I myself have no yoke for the ordinance ms of Moses and the angels , but I also know not to insist another take my own conscience d faith upon them

if I cause doubt it’s going to lead then to not be acting in faith which becomes a violation of thier conscience and causes guilt.

thkngs like this are to be believed within and honored before God , our role is to never create a stumbling block for others who haven’t seen the same faith in Christ.

it’s very much between each believer and how thier faith has been constructed they have to as we all have to walk by faith and faith is within and personal to each .

we want to preach the gospel and let his word cut away the ordinances d yokes by growing our faith exclusively in him

that’s all I was saying take a look at Romans 14 as a complete chapter and you may see what I’m saying but it was only a thought to consider the kingdom is about living each other and bearing one another up , about righteousness in truth and joy in the Holy Ghost anyone who is serving God in those things needs no more approval from anyone else keeping a sabbath isn’t a sin , it would be however a sin if I believe I need to keep it and then didn’t if I no better I’m not condemned if I help my brother fix his car on a sabbath out of love

each day is the lords day and each day a sabbath of rest in Christ

It's actually a very good subject, and a great question. My point was, the *doctrine* that we are not under the Law needs to be told, whether or not it upsets the sensibilities of those "weak in faith." Their "weakness" does not dictate to teachers of the Gospel what they should teach.

We are not here talking about whether individuals want to observe Sabbath on weekends, but rather, about NT doctrine that we are *not* under the Law of Moses as a covenant, or as a contract with God. Jewish tradition does impose on Jewish consciences the thought that God would have them to rest on Saturdays. Similarly, many Christians feel obligated to take their "rest" on Sundays, to give a "tenth" to the church, or to avoid wine altogether. However, these are individual concerns--not NT doctrine, and I am preaching and teaching NT doctrine.

I'm not calling for someone who is a vegetarian to eat meat, nor am I asking someone who has gone to church on Sunday for 50 years to start going to church on Saturdays. These are personal preferences, and matter of a personal relationship between God and the individual.

If a person who believes he should rest on the Sabbath wants to teach others that that is required by God, then Paul felt comfortable in rebuking that individual. False doctrine was not countenanced in the church, but personal practices that did not fit in with NT doctrine was in fact allowed. Extra-biblical practices like "Sabbath-observance" was allowed, as are things like vegetarian practices, etc.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

It's actually a very good subject, and a great question. My point was, the *doctrine* that we are not under the Law needs to be told, whether or not it upsets the sensibilities of those "weak in faith." Their "weakness" does not dictate to teachers of the Gospel what they should teach.

We are not here talking about whether individuals want to observe Sabbath on weekends, but rather, about NT doctrine that we are *not* under the Law of Moses as a covenant, or as a contract with God. Jewish tradition does impose on Jewish consciences the thought that God would have them to rest on Saturdays. Similarly, many Christians feel obligated to take their "rest" on Sundays, to give a "tenth" to the church, or to avoid wine altogether. However, these are individual concerns--not NT doctrine, and I am preaching and teaching NT doctrine.

I'm not calling for someone who is a vegetarian to eat meat, nor am I asking someone who has gone to church on Sunday for 50 years to start going to church on Saturdays. These are personal preferences, and matter of a personal relationship between God and the individual.

If a person who believes he should rest on the Sabbath wants to teach others that that is required by God, then Paul felt comfortable in rebuking that individual. False doctrine was not countenanced in the church, but personal practices that did not fit in with NT doctrine was in fact allowed. Extra-biblical practices like "Sabbath-observance" was allowed, as are things like vegetarian practices, etc.

🙂 you didn’t bother reading hat chapter huh ?

“My point was, the *doctrine* that we are not under the Law needs to be told, whether or not it upsets the sensibilities of those "weak in faith." Their "weakness" does not dictate to teachers of the Gospel what they should teach.”

that’s what you are saying but this is why I was pointing you to Paul an apostle and revelator of the gospel you are talking about here’s Paul’s words compare then to what you are saying

“Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:1-3‬ ‭

another section of the chapter I was hoping you would read and consider

“Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Now carefully consider this part

“So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself:

but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean

‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:12-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we have to walk by our faith inside us , I don’t have to conform to what you think about the sabbath , you don’t have to conform to what I think about it , we each have to honor our faith to Gods that is within us now . And en we try to out ourself on others it causes them to be in conflict in thier mind which becomes sin acting in doubt the belief is what we can’t violate. That’s in us it doesn’t hurt me if I do something you think is sin , it hurts me when I do something I know is sin. We aren’t each other’s judge is the thing Jesus is.

the fospel isn’t about the sabbath or not , the gospel is the truth about Jesus.

“For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:20-23‬ ‭

if you go and stay two weeks with a Christian family and they believe in thier house in honoring the sabbath rest , while you are there you should also honor the sabbath day because of you go in thier house and start demanding what you believe in them , it is harming thier faith in Christ over insignificant matters it isn’t that they believes the sabbath keeping thier whole life d now you are going to convince them it’s not needed

the idea is absolutely be careful not to harm someone’s faith over such a minute thing that they do to honor God

he accepts it it doesn’t matter what you or I think of they honor it to him that’s all that matters that is , a preacher of the gospel an apostle teaching it

“He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:6-8, 10-12‬

Paul is saying this and he is a preacher of the gospel much more than you or I are we should never get too spiritually discerning to learn from scripture

“Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s very important not to hurt other peoples faith it seems you think not observing the sabbath is really important but it’s not brother is keeping it what’s important is that what we do is done in honor of God and according to faith so we don’t walk in a double mind and sin by doubting and disputing

 

[randyk]

🙂 you didn’t bother reading hat chapter huh ?

“My point was, the *doctrine* that we are not under the Law needs to be told, whether or not it upsets the sensibilities of those "weak in faith." Their "weakness" does not dictate to teachers of the Gospel what they should teach.”

that’s what you are saying but this is why I was pointing you to Paul an apostle and revelator of the gospel you are talking about here’s Paul’s words compare then to what you are saying

“Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.

Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:1-3‬ ‭

another section of the chapter I was hoping you would read and consider

“Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:4-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Now carefully consider this part

“So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself:

but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean

‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:12-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we have to walk by our faith inside us , I don’t have to conform to what you think about the sabbath , you don’t have to conform to what I think about it , we each have to honor our faith to Gods that is within us now . And en we try to out ourself on others it causes them to be in conflict in thier mind which becomes sin acting in doubt the belief is what we can’t violate. That’s in us it doesn’t hurt me if I do something you think is sin , it hurts me when I do something I know is sin. We aren’t each other’s judge is the thing Jesus is.

the fospel isn’t about the sabbath or not , the gospel is the truth about Jesus.

“For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.

It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:20-23‬ ‭

if you go and stay two weeks with a Christian family and they believe in thier house in honoring the sabbath rest , while you are there you should also honor the sabbath day because of you go in thier house and start demanding what you believe in them , it is harming thier faith in Christ over insignificant matters it isn’t that they believes the sabbath keeping thier whole life d now you are going to convince them it’s not needed

the idea is absolutely be careful not to harm someone’s faith over such a minute thing that they do to honor God

he accepts it it doesn’t matter what you or I think of they honor it to him that’s all that matters that is , a preacher of the gospel an apostle teaching it

“He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.

But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:6-8, 10-12‬

Paul is saying this and he is a preacher of the gospel much more than you or I are we should never get too spiritually discerning to learn from scripture

“Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s very important not to hurt other peoples faith it seems you think not observing the sabbath is really important but it’s not brother is keeping it what’s important is that what we do is done in honor of God and according to faith so we don’t walk in a double mind and sin by doubting and disputing

I can see that you're just not getting my point, and I'll have to be more detailed. How one *personally* manages his or her life is *their business.* But when it comes to dictating how others live and what doctrine to teach, it is the matter of preserving *sound doctrine.* That is the teacher's job, and I will continue to do so!

Paul did not say, Well, some people's conscience dictates that they can continue to follow the Law of Circumcsion, because they are weak in faith--it's fine what they do.

Paul didn't say that, did he, brother? So you are just ignoring this. Listen to how Paul deals with this, on the matter of Circumcision.

Gal 5.1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 “A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

You see, brother, Paul here deals with both of the issues we are talking about, the issue of personal conscience and the problem of teaching a false Gospel. One can practice Circumcision or Sabbath Law or Infant Baptism, without preaching that all Christians are under the Law of Moses. This is a matter of "personal practice"--Paul indicated that what mattered, doctrinally, is that all preach Christ alone as our Salvation, and carry out that salvation according to conscience, whether it be consistent with a systematic theology or not.

But Paul did not hesitate to berate and to rebuke those who tried to make their personal practices into a false doctrine of legalism. That's my point. Try to answer that?

 

[Blain]

God does not expect us to be perfect. But He does expect us to have a perfect standard, upon which to rely. Christ is that perfect standard, who has given us his Spirit. And if we live a life relying on that Spirit, it proves that we have accepted him as the right standard of righteousness.

The Law of Moses was given to Israel to establish a relationship with God, but could not provide a perfect standard for righteousness, because it was administered through imperfect priests. Because of their human flaws, they showed that their own works were flawed, and that human death remained a hindrance to unbroken relationship with God.

Christ came to fulfill Israel's hope in an eternal relationship with God. His own flawless life was not threatened by sin and death, and he could offer us his Spirit as the basis for obtaining this eternal relationship with God.

Now that Christ has come, we have an example of righteousness that is free of the curse of sin and death. We cannot attain perfection on our own, but we've been given the opportunity to live in dependence upon Christ's perfect Spirit to show our preference for God's perfect standard of righteousness.

In accepting Christ we accept God's basis for an eternal relationship with Himself. And it requires not just that we accept how Christ has lived, but that we recognize that he gave us his Spirit so that we may live a life dependent on his Spirit.

1 John 2.3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

This is sound teaching to many arguments are about being perfect and arguments on each spectrum oppose each other rather than come in union.
We cannot be perfect even if we attempt to never sin rather we live in perfection because we live in him. Any child who respects and loves their father naturally tries to mimic them people who have children know this they copy them.

The rock in which we stand is perfect and thus even if we ourselves are not perfect we are clothed in his righteousness and perfection. Think of it as a house built on a perfect solid ground the house itself is not always perfect the winds move the roof and the rain makes it weaken and soften the bricks become chiped and worn but the h0ouse remains strong because of the foundation it is built upon.

The idea of perfect is in fact inperfect because only in inperfection can we understand what it is to be perfect, we do his works and obey him out of love that is the only reason we attain perfection we don't do it out of mere obedience we do it from a heart of adoration and love and thus natrually like a small child mimic our father. I apologize if I got off topic I just was inspired by your post

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I can see that you're just not getting my point, and I'll have to be more detailed. How one *personally* manages his or her life is *their business.* But when it comes to dictating how others live and what doctrine to teach, it is the matter of preserving *sound doctrine.* That is the teacher's job, and I will continue to do so!

Paul did not say, Well, some people's conscience dictates that they can continue to follow the Law of Circumcsion, because they are weak in faith--it's fine what they do.

Paul didn't say that, did he, brother? So you are just ignoring this. Listen to how Paul deals with this, on the matter of Circumcision.

Gal 5.1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.

7 You were running a good race. Who cut in on you to keep you from obeying the truth? 8 That kind of persuasion does not come from the one who calls you. 9 “A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough.” 10 I am confident in the Lord that you will take no other view. The one who is throwing you into confusion, whoever that may be, will have to pay the penalty. 11 Brothers and sisters, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the offense of the cross has been abolished. 12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves!

13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

You see, brother, Paul here deals with both of the issues we are talking about, the issue of personal conscience and the problem of teaching a false Gospel. One can practice Circumcision or Sabbath Law or Infant Baptism, without preaching that all Christians are under the Law of Moses. This is a matter of "personal practice"--Paul indicated that what mattered, doctrinally, is that all preach Christ alone as our Salvation, and carry out that salvation according to conscience, whether it be consistent with a systematic theology or not.

But Paul did not hesitate to berate and to rebuke those who tried to make their personal practices into a false doctrine of legalism. That's my point. Try to answer that?

it’s alright bro , you can “ win” I was just trying to point you to what Paul was teaching in Romans chapter 14 . I was never trying to debate your views on Christianity

your most welcome to hold the view , or consider what the apostle was teaching there about faith and things like the sabbath day , clean and unclean foods , ect you don’t seem to be able to hear this part directly addressing the sabbath whether we regard it or not

“One man esteemeth one day above another: ( one man honors the sabbath )

another esteemeth every day alike. ( but another doesn’t recognize any day dofferent from the next )

Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; ( honors the sabbath to the lord nothing to do with this other guy )

and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.( doesn’t recognize the sabbath as different into God nothing to do with the other guy )


He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks;

and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s irrelevant what matters is they follow their faith and honor God in all they do . And it doesn’t affect another what you believe they are to be fully convinced themselves and honor what’s in them for God.

Some things are worth standing strong other things are a stumbling block for you and others. The irrelevant thjngs of faith cause strife and God accepts either from the faithful to Christ our judge

But that’s just my own take and I’ll let it go there and hope you consider Romans 14

 

[Aaron56]

The apostles preserve sound doctrine, not the teachers. Many believers don’t even believe they still exist.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

The apostles preserve sound doctrine, not the teachers. Many believers don’t even believe they still exist.

the two witnesses preserve doctrine

“And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:12, 14‬ ‭KJV‬

“The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭4:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭4:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It seems the kingdom is founded upon 12 foundations and has 12 gates according to this group appearing before the throne

“And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:2, 4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and this other group before the throne shouting of salvation and the lamb

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it seems for a time Gods people were gathered through the children of Israel only , and then again those of all nations were gathered through the twelve appointed witnesses of Jesus

the commonality being one represents the Old Testament that is written and the other represents the New Testament that is written sent to all people

 

[Aaron56]

No. The excommunication of the apostolic led to the 30,000+ sects we have today. Without all 5 of the doma gifts functioning in the body the people are tossed around by every wind of doctrine AND the members remain immature.

The 144k and the great multitude are the same group. John is seeing both in the spirit and in the natural.

Like in Revelation 5Then one of the elders saidto me, “Do not weep! Behold, the Lion of thetribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed to open the scroll and its sevenseals.” 6Then I saw a Lamb who appeared to have been slain, standing in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders.

A lion is announced but a lamb is seen.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

No. The excommunication of the apostolic led to the 30,000+ sects we have today. Without all 5 of the doma gifts functioning in the body the people are tossed around by every wind of doctrine AND the members remain immature.

the apostles doctrine is written brother it will never change is the idea there’s a reason scripture dropped with John the apostles last letter.

an apostle is dofferent from a disciple note how Jesus seperated his 12 chosen from others , taught them secret thkngs he didn’t teach others apostle is one who saw Jesus face to face and heard his voice call them to thier appointment it’s why Matthias isn’t an apostle of the lamb Peter cast lots to decide but Paul was chosen the same as the other eleven , Jesus pleaded and chose him on earth

I don’t believe there are more than twelve apostles , I believe the apostles writings are written no disciples all over the world should remain in thier fuidance as they follow the lord

if I start claiming apostleship , it then gives me authority I don’t have to add to revelation of the gospel that is already open into all in the scriptures

but again that’s just my belief

“And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭19:28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

there are twelve seperate names written in heavens kingdom , and twelve thrones before the lords throne. I know that part is true the twelve Jesus chose are the ones recognized in heaven and have thier names along with the twelve sons of Israel ( before the law came ) equaling 24 names written in the kingdom all shouting of the glorification of God and shouting praises tonthe lamb

I guess it’s possible he appointed other apostles himself and isn’t going to give them the same appointment in eternity but I know there are twelve in the kingdom called apostles

 

[randyk]

This is sound teaching to many arguments are about being perfect and arguments on each spectrum oppose each other rather than come in union.
We cannot be perfect even if we attempt to never sin rather we live in perfection because we live in him. Any child who respects and loves their father naturally tries to mimic them people who have children know this they copy them.

The rock in which we stand is perfect and thus even if we ourselves are not perfect we are clothed in his righteousness and perfection. Think of it as a house built on a perfect solid ground the house itself is not always perfect the winds move the roof and the rain makes it weaken and soften the bricks become chiped and worn but the h0ouse remains strong because of the foundation it is built upon.

The idea of perfect is in fact inperfect because only in inperfection can we understand what it is to be perfect, we do his works and obey him out of love that is the only reason we attain perfection we don't do it out of mere obedience we do it from a heart of adoration and love and thus natrually like a small child mimic our father. I apologize if I got off topic I just was inspired by your post

Blain, that was said so well! it's the very point I wished to convey, and you really helped to communicate that. Thanks so much!

 

[rayzor]

what i don't here much of is Paul said it is no longer me rather the sin that dwell in me ,[Thus we can be sinless, Sinless = perfect] Jesus said 2 be such

 

[randyk]

it’s alright bro , you can “ win” I was just trying to point you to what Paul was teaching in Romans chapter 14 . I was never trying to debate your views on Christianity

your most welcome to hold the view , or consider what the apostle was teaching there about faith and things like the sabbath day , clean and unclean foods , ect you don’t seem to be able to hear this part directly addressing the sabbath whether we regard it or not

“One man esteemeth one day above another: ( one man honors the sabbath )

another esteemeth every day alike. ( but another doesn’t recognize any day dofferent from the next )

Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; ( honors the sabbath to the lord nothing to do with this other guy )

and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it.( doesn’t recognize the sabbath as different into God nothing to do with the other guy )


He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks;

and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:5-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it’s irrelevant what matters is they follow their faith and honor God in all they do . And it doesn’t affect another what you believe they are to be fully convinced themselves and honor what’s in them for God.

Some things are worth standing strong other things are a stumbling block for you and others. The irrelevant thjngs of faith cause strife and God accepts either from the faithful to Christ our judge

But that’s just my own take and I’ll let it go there and hope you consider Romans 14

No, as I said, you raised an *excellent point,* whether we agree or not. By that I mean I'm sharing my view without the ability to fully argue the point. It's something I've had to dig into to ensure I'm saying things properly. I've dealt with this before, but still, I want to get the argument right, and make sure I'm representing biblical truth properly.

I do know that it's foolish to get into a lot of arguments that don't mean a whole lot, ignoring more important things like feeding the poor, building each other up, or preaching the Gospel to others. People can go to church on Sunday, whether I consider it "legalism" or not. They can be a vegetarian without disturbing a Bible Study.

I do know Paul wasn't willing to compromise his hostility towards "legalism." But he did indicate there were matters that are to be considered "external" and peripheral to the Gospel, that aren't quite in the category of "legalism." And these can be left alone, preferring to focus on more important matters that edify.

I'm not sure Paul indicated that Sabbath keeping is okay--only that we shouldn't let others, like unbelieving Jews, judge us on the matter. These things are external to the Gospel. Among Jews we should respect their laws, though we don't have to accept them as requirements for ourselves.

But thanks for bringing it up. I hope I didn't get too "emotional," but I do get animated on certain matters like "legalism." I was raised in strong Reformation Theology. Take care...

 

[randyk]

On the matter of legalism Paul allowed people the right to avoid eating meat offered to idols. This is not the same thing as giving license to Christians to observe the Sabbath or to get Circumcised *as a matter of law!* Paul had no problem with observing the Law, as a Christian, in a Jewish society, out of respect for their traditions and as a means of witnessing among them. But Paul never sanctioned the teaching that Sabbath observance is okay, nor that getting Circumcision is okay, as a matter of Divine Law!