The Tabernacle in the Wilderness

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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
10,591
4,069
113
#41
Would you please provide scripture indicating that receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost and being filled with the Spirit are different experiences.
THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST (TO THOSE WHO REPENT AND BELIEVE)
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)

THE FILLING OF THE HOLY GHOST (SUBSEQUENT TO THE GIFT)
And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. (Acts 4:31)

Note: While it appears that Christian baptism is a requirement for receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:38), Acts 10 makes it clear that water baptism is subsequent to the baptism with the Holy Spirit (which is the same as the gift of the Holy Ghost).
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
1,526
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#43
For God so loved the world He gave His own Son, that whoever believes in Him AND IS BAPTIZED shall not perish but have everlasting life.
-
My Bible doesn’t have the bolded. 🤷‍♂️
John Chapter 3 starts at 1, and then in verse 5 touches on the fact that one must be born of water and Spirit if they wish to ENTER the kingdom and continues to your quote of verse 16. Immediately after telling Nicodemus how to be reborn Jesus attends water baptisms in verses 22-26:

"After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
For John was not yet cast into prison.
Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven."

If one believes in Jesus they will be obedient to His commands and therefore receive everlasting life.

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS whatsoever I have COMMANDED you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matt 28:19-20

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark 16:16

Do you believe Jesus commands are optional? I for one, do not. I believe Jesus meant exactly what He said.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
1,526
465
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#44
I agree. Putting more faith in oneself than in Jesus is the epitome of pride. It’s saddens me to see such a lack of trust in our SAVIOR.
Those who submit to instructions which include water baptism are placing their trust in Our Savior. Did Jesus not say: he who believes and is baptized shall be saved? He goes on to say that if one doesn't believe they are damned already. This statement doesn't take away from the necessity to be water baptized as some state. It shows that if one believes they will get water baptized and be saved. If they don't believe in Jesus' command they will not get baptized and thus they are damned already.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,577
273
83
#45
God's word commands people to be water baptized. God's words, not mine. Interesting you see it as such a burden to comply with the word.

Water baptism is not a WORK OF THE LAW. It is a New Testament mandate.

Abraham's believed God and did what? Obeyed.

Certainly God knows if someone has the ability to get water baptized or not. However, if one has the ability they have no excuse for not complying with God's command.

The word does not specify that water baptism is done as an outward sign of an inward grace. If you know of a scripture expressing this please let me know.

I am surprised that you would make the following statement: "You need to "scrap" this heretical teaching because it puts an undue burden on people who cannot get water baptized."

Not sharing something that is specifically commanded in the bible would not be wise. Jesus stated: "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." John 12:48
You are misunderstanding what I stated wansvic. Of course we are commanded to get water baptized "BUT" water baptism is not a requirement whereby if you don't get water baptised your lost for all eternity. Let me ask you this question or this scenario.

A person is the hospital dying for whatever reason and a person who knows the person, it may be a friend, a Pastor or whoever is a Chritian and that persons explains the gospel to the dying person and they acknowledge their sinfulness (like the thief on the cross) and they ask Jesus Christ/God to forgive them and they die are they lost for eternity becasue they did not get water baptized? Yes or NO?

And, yes the word of God does imply that water baptism is an outward sign of an inward grace. Look at what 1 Peter 3:21 states, "And corresponding to that (corresponding to what wansvic?) baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." So what does this mean?

The Apostle Peter (from the previous verses) launches into a discussion of water baptism. He made it clear that baptism, like the flood is only a "figure" or counterpart, representation as in Hebrews 9:24. In other words, it takes more than wasing in water (the putting away of the filth of the flesh) to cleanse from sin. If you notice, Noah already obeyed God by building the ark and the ark represents Christ and how He kept them safe from the water and yet that same water killed the rest of the people.

And yes, water baptism is a work if you add it to salvation in order to be saved. Look, Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you have been saved (past tense) through faith, (i.e. belief) and not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; v9, not as a result of works, that no one should boast."

Are you aware that if someone offers you a gift that it's free and all you have to do is accept the gift. This is what God did for us. He does not say, "Well now you better get water baptized or I will take away the gift." Nor does God say. "If you don't speak in tongues I will take the gift back."
This is not hard to understand wansvic. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
1,526
465
83
#46
Jesus said "... repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem." This occurred on the Day of Pentecost. (Acts 2:38)

Jesus said we are to wait to receive the Holy Ghost before traveling forth in ministry
"And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high." Luke 24:47-49

Prior to His departure Jesus commanded that we are to be water baptized. (Matt 28:19; Mark 16:16)

Mainstream religious beliefs should not override what the bible clearly states. As for me I refuse to stop sharing because it may hurt someones feelings. I am more concerned in what the Lord Jesus expects of me.
 

oldethennew

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2016
9,797
2,023
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#47
in GEN. 1:10, this is the first-time that the word 'miqveh' is mentioned - this is the 'gathering of the waters' -
another meaning is, 'the things HOPED FOR or the Ground of Hope - the term miqveh' was equal
in Jesus' time to our modern 'baptism' -
HEB. 11:1.
Now Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
so,
Faith and Baptism and Hope are ALL intertwined...
 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
3,338
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South
adelaiderevival.com
#48
The thief is not burdened with the yoke of having to get water baptized where as you and your heretical church believe one is not saved unless they are water baptized under the new covenant.
NO - Jesus and the NT insist, command, that disciples must be water baptised.
The heresy is to preach otherwise.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,577
273
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#49
NO - Jesus and the NT insist, command, that disciples must be water baptised.
The heresy is to preach otherwise.
What do you mean "NO?" I saw that you quoted Matthew 28:19 where Jesus Christ said, "Go therefore and make "DISCIPLES" of all nations baptizing them (the disciples) in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Since there are "ALREADY" disciples first are you going to tell me that if they do not get baptized they are not disciples any more? Moreover, you never answered my question about a person who gives their life to Christ on their dying bed and then die, are they lost because they could not get water baptized?

Also, if water baptism is required for salvation why are we never told to get water baptized first and then believe in Jesus Christ for salvation? And like I said before, the thief on the cross didn't have time to be baptized fefore he died, but he had an opportunity to believe in Jesus and put his trust in Him. That's why Jesus said "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Your thinking only one way and that's because you don't know how to reconcile verses that "appear" to contradict each other. Like Acts 2:38 or Mark 16:16. If you want I can reconcile them for you but what good would it do since your not open minded enough to consider other positions. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
44,319
17,832
113
#50
NO - Jesus and the NT insist, command, that disciples must be water baptised.
The heresy is to preach otherwise.
FALSE

It pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.....

Adding water = false gospel
 

oldethennew

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2016
9,797
2,023
113
#52
dear Brothers and Sisters, how we await the days ahead when we all
will
come together in 'unity and faith and Love'...
:):)
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
1,526
465
83
#53
What do you mean "NO?" I saw that you quoted Matthew 28:19 where Jesus Christ said, "Go therefore and make "DISCIPLES" of all nations baptizing them (the disciples) in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

Since there are "ALREADY" disciples first are you going to tell me that if they do not get baptized they are not disciples any more? Moreover, you never answered my question about a person who gives their life to Christ on their dying bed and then die, are they lost because they could not get water baptized?

Also, if water baptism is required for salvation why are we never told to get water baptized first and then believe in Jesus Christ for salvation? And like I said before, the thief on the cross didn't have time to be baptized fefore he died, but he had an opportunity to believe in Jesus and put his trust in Him. That's why Jesus said "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."

Your thinking only one way and that's because you don't know how to reconcile verses that "appear" to contradict each other. Like Acts 2:38 or Mark 16:16. If you want I can reconcile them for you but what good would it do since your not open minded enough to consider other positions. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Matt 28:19-20
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Greek
Matt 28:19
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the
4198 3767 9999 3100 3956 3588 1484 907 846 1519 3588
Poreuthéntes oún matheeteúsate pánta tá éthnee baptízontes autoús eis tó

name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
3686 3588 3962 2532 3588 5207 2532 3588 40 4151
ónoma toú Patrós kaí toú Huioú kaí toú Hagíou Pneúmatos


(Interlinear Transliterated Bible. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved. [For more detail see the full copyright page.])
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,577
273
83
#54
Matt 28:19-20
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Greek
Matt 28:19
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the
4198 3767 9999 3100 3956 3588 1484 907 846 1519 3588
Poreuthéntes oún matheeteúsate pánta tá éthnee baptízontes autoús eis tó

name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
3686 3588 3962 2532 3588 5207 2532 3588 40 4151
ónoma toú Patrós kaí toú Huioú kaí toú Hagíou Pneúmatos


(Interlinear Transliterated Bible. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved. [For more detail see the full copyright page.])
So what's your point? Of course as a disciple were suppose to observe and follow the things Jesus taught and commanded. He commanded some people to go "and sin no more." Do you think they lived the rest of their lives not sinning? He said at John 14:12, "Truly, truly I say to you, he who believes in Me the works that I do shall he do also, and GREATER works than these shall he do, because I go to the Father."

What do you suppose those greater works are wansvic? Are you doing them? And getting back to Matthew 28:19 does your church water baptize in the (singular) name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." No, you baptizen in the name of Jesus Christ only. Now, I am "NOT" arguing with you but rather trying to get you to think and have an open mind about your belief system.

One poster said this: "
dear Brothers and Sisters, how we await the days ahead when we all
will
come together in 'unity and faith and Love'..." Try telling that to the Unitarians, the Christadelphians, the JW's, the Mormons, the Buddhist, the Muslims and I could name a hundred more. Christianity is "NOT" about everybody trying to get along and sing the song "kumbaya" around a camp fire.

If the essential doctrines or teachings of Christianity are wrong then all that follows is wrong as well. The following it by "staunch" oneness person I debated and have known for many years. Here is how he defines God.

"Jesus is the Word, the God, the flesh, the Spirit, the man, the FAther, the Son, the Alpha & Omega, the Lord God Almighty, He is all of them! the Father, Son and Holy Ghost refers to all that Jesus is, not two members in a godhead of three gods." Tell me, do you agree with this definition? Do you really think as a Trinitarian I am teaching "Polytheism" and am worshiping three gods? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

oldethennew

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2016
9,797
2,023
113
#55
we all learn if we grow in grace and Godly character -
'Here a little, there a little' -
ZEP. 3:9.
For then will I turn to the people a pure language, that they may all call upon The Name of The LORD,
to serve Him with one consent.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
19,737
8,145
113
54
#56
John Chapter 3 starts at 1, and then in verse 5 touches on the fact that one must be born of water and Spirit if they wish to ENTER the kingdom and continues to your quote of verse 16. Immediately after telling Nicodemus how to be reborn Jesus attends water baptisms in verses 22-26:

"After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.
For John was not yet cast into prison.
Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.
And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him.
John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven."
In regards to water baptism in John 3:22, by this time Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus is over with and He has moved on. John 3:22 - After these things Jesus and His disciples came into the land of Judea, and there He was spending time with them and baptizing... Verse 25 - An argument developed between some of John's disciples and a certain Jew over the matter of ceremonial washing. Baptism is the emblem of the washing away of sins by the death of Christ. Every time a believer is immersed he does not wash away his sins literally, but ceremonially, pointing to the death of Christ by which sins are actually washed away.

In John 3:5, Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Scripture interprets itself. Notice in John 7:38-39, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of LIVING WATER. But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT. *Did you see that? The Holy Spirit (and not H20) is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

In John 4:10, Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." In John 4:14, Jesus said, "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. *Jesus connects this living water here with everlasting life. *Living water is not water baptism. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we also read - ..drink into one Spirit. Water baptism is the picture or symbol of the new birth, but not the means of securing it.

*You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine.*

If one believes in Jesus they will be obedient to His commands and therefore receive everlasting life.
Those who believe in Jesus (John 3:15,16,18; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31 etc..) trust in Him as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation and therefore receive everlasting life. Being obedient to His commands AFTER we have been saved through faith is WORKS and we are NOT saved by works, but through faith in Christ. (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Your faith is in works for salvation and not in Christ alone. You cannot distinguish between obeying a command in order to become saved and obeying a command after we have been saved.

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Teaching them TO OBSERVE ALL THINGS whatsoever I have COMMANDED you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen." Matt 28:19-20
We have here a command from Jesus to go and make disciples of all nations FIRST, then "afterwards," baptize them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Oneness Pentecostals have rejected this command and instead, baptize their members "in Jesus name only" and teach only that formula saves. Jesus mentioned nothing in Matthew 28:18,19 about baptism being absolutely necessary for salvation (or in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). The same command also includes the clause "teaching them (disciples/new converts) to observe all things" that Christ has commanded them BECAUSE they are saved and not to become saved.

*So go and make disciples FIRST, then baptize converts and teach them to observe all that the Lord has commanded. *Nothing here about salvation by water and works.

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." Mark 16:16
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

Do you believe Jesus commands are optional? I for one, do not. I believe Jesus meant exactly what He said.
I believe Jesus meant exactly what He said. John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Did Jesus not say: he who believes and is baptized shall be saved?
Yes - general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized, but he who does not believe will be condemned.

He goes on to say that if one doesn't believe they are damned already. This statement doesn't take away from the necessity to be water baptized as some state. It shows that if one believes they will get water baptized and be saved. If they don't believe in Jesus' command they will not get baptized and thus they are damned already.
While Mark 16:16 tells us something about believers who have been baptized (they will be saved) it does not say anything about believers who have not been baptized. In order for this verse to teach that baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation, a third statement would be necessary - “He who believes and is not baptized will be condemned” or “He who is not baptized will be condemned.” But, of course, neither of these statements is found in the verse. Did Jesus say he who is not baptized will be condemned in Mark 16:16? NO. If he who believes will be saved (John 3:15,16,18) then he who believes and is baptized will be saved as well, yet NOWHERE did Jesus say that whoever is not baptized will be condemned. Now there are many unbelievers who attend various false religions and cults who have been water baptized and such people may believe "mental assent" in the existence and in certain historical facts about Jesus, but they do not believe/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of their salvation so your argument does not hold water.

Those who submit to instructions which include water baptism are placing their trust in Our Savior.
Those who submit to instructions for the wrong purpose and with the wrong motivation are placing their trust in water baptism and other works for salvation and not in Our Savior.
 

7seasrekeyed

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2017
9,763
4,282
113
#57
I have no desire to argue. Just enjoy sharing points taken directly from the Word.
anyone who points out the incorrect interpretation of your views on water baptism is accused of arguing with you

I mean honestly...be honest. it would be refreshing :rolleyes:
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
1,526
465
83
#58
THE GIFT OF THE HOLY GHOST (TO THOSE WHO REPENT AND BELIEVE)
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)

THE FILLING OF THE HOLY GHOST (SUBSEQUENT TO THE GIFT)
And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. (Acts 4:31)

Note: While it appears that Christian baptism is a requirement for receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:38), Acts 10 makes it clear that water baptism is subsequent to the baptism with the Holy Spirit (which is the same as the gift of the Holy Ghost).
Per the scriptures cited below, the initial infilling of the Holy Ghost is actually receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Luke 11:13
13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Luke 24:49
49 And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Acts 2:38-39
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Acts 2:4
4 And they were ALL FILLED with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Acts 10:45
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was POURED OUT THE GIFT of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 11:17-18
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the LIKE GIFT AS HE DID UNTO US, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Acts 8:15-20
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For AS YET HE WAS FALLEN upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,…
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the GIFT OF GOD may be purchased with money.

In addition, Acts 4:31 pertains to being infused with more of the Holy Spirit as the following commentary suggests:
"Though these disciples had received the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost, yet they were capable of larger communications; and what they had then received did not preclude the necessity of frequent supplies, on emergent occasions. Indeed, one communication of this Spirit always makes way and disposes for another. Neither apostle nor private Christian can subsist in the divine life without frequent influences from on high.
(from Adam Clarke's Commentary, Electronic Database. All rights reserved.)
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
1,526
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#59
In John 3:5, Jesus said, "born of water and the Spirit" He did not say born of baptism and the Spirit. To automatically read baptism into this verse simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted. Scripture interprets itself. Notice in John 7:38-39, "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of LIVING WATER. But this He spoke concerning the SPIRIT. *Did you see that? The Holy Spirit (and not H20) is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing. If "water" is arbitrarily defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again.

In John 4:10, Jesus said, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water." In John 4:14, Jesus said, "but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life. *Jesus connects this living water here with everlasting life. *Living water is not water baptism. In 1 Corinthians 12:13, we also read - ..drink into one Spirit. Water baptism is the picture or symbol of the new birth, but not the means of securing it.
Jesus did not say one must be born of Spirit and Spirit. Jesus said being born again requires water and Spirit. Peter's instructions to everyone of the need to be water baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost line up with Jesus' statement.
Your comments about living water pertain exclusively to the flow of the Spirit once one has been initially filled.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
19,737
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54
#60
Jesus did not say one must be born of Spirit and Spirit.
I did not say Jesus said one must be "born of Spirit and Spirit" and Jesus also did not say one must be born of water baptism and Spirit either. The Holy Spirit is the source of spiritual washing/cleansing, hence the "born of water." *Don't overlook John 4:10.14; 7:37-39. Water is also used as an emblem of the Word of God in regards to cleansing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26; 1 Peter 1:23)

Jesus said being born again requires water and Spirit. Peter's instructions to everyone of the need to be water baptized and receive the gift of the Holy Ghost line up with Jesus' statement.
You need to properly harmonize scripture with scripture in order to reach the proper conclusion on doctrine and stop building biased doctrine on pet verses, while ignoring other passages of scripture. In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony* (y)

Your comments about living water pertain exclusively to the flow of the Spirit once one has been initially filled.
You forget about spiritual washing/cleansing, which is accomplished by the Holy Spirit and not plain, ordinary H20. Titus 3:5 says "washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit." You only seem to understand plain H20 and miss the spiritual application.