The Tribulation and the Church, WHEN?

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GaryA

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There is no resurrection post trib.

The only post 7yr trib resurrection is the general resurrection after the mil.
Just how many resurrection/rapture/gathering events - that take place in the presence of Jesus right after He "arrives on the scene" - do you think the Bible indicates that there are?
 

GaryA

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Good day GaryA,

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." - I Cor.15:52

"And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. " - Matt.24:31

The word "trumpet" is not exclusive to marking one specific event. That said, the "last trumpet" mentioned above is the last of a type of trumpet and not the last of every kind of trumpet, the latter of which is the error. To be clear, the "last trumpet" will be sounded to gather the dead and living in Christ to remove them from the earth; where the "loud trumpet call" will be sounded for the angels to gather first the wicked (Matt.13:30) and then the righteous which will be comprised of the remnant of Israel and the great tribulation saints who will have made it through the tribulation period alive. Matt.24:31 is not about angels gathering the church, but about gathering those alive, both righteous and wicked from every corner of the earth.

Regarding those who are resurrected and the living who are changed, Angels do not gather them, but they are raised in power, immortal and glorified and caught up by the Lord to meet Him in the air. In opposition, those who make it through the tribulation alive will be gathered by the angels when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

Last Trumpet = the resurrection of the dead and the living being changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air

Loud Trumpet Call = The angels gathering both the wicked and righteous who make it through the tribulation alive

Once again, the events of the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age are two separate events with different purposes. You cannot have the gathering of the church taking place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and that because, as I have told you before, it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God of which we are not appointed to suffer.
I must disagree.
 

GaryA

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The only thing I am "fixed on" is the truth based on what the Bible actually says.
And, the Bible does in fact actually say that [certain things] occur "after the tribulation"...

And, based on the whole of scripture, we can be extraordinarily sure of exactly what those things are that it describes.
 

bluto

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Aug 4, 2016
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Yep. Another case of Matt 24 fixation. Its a plague on this board.
There is an entire bible that must be used concordantly. And doing so always results in the correct answer: A pre-trib rapture. Always.
Apparently it never occured to you that this whole issue started with Jesus Christ Himself at Matthew 24. The disciples ask Him a question which was, "When will these things be THE SIGN OF YOUR COMING AND THE END OF THE AGE/WORLD." Matt 24:3.

Jesus then explains it and the Apostles John, Paul and Peter back up what Jesus said, it's that simple. Now, notice their specific question of, "and the sign of your coming." Does not this imply that there is only going to be one "second coming?" What did the writer of Hebrews say at Hebrews 9:28? Jesus came the first time as it relates to dying for our sins. He is coming a second time, "but wait," the Church has to be rapture first which means that His second coming now becomes a third coming if we listen you guys. :rolleyes:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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I noticed here ahwatukee (and at some of your other post) that you post verses that anybody can post but how do you know these verses support the pre-trib rapture? The question of this thread is "WHEN" and the poster posted a verse that said, "after the tribulation."
I believe that after posting the scripture I also include what the gathering of the church cannot be after the tribulation. The reason being that believers are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath and that because Jesus already suffered God's wrath for sin our every believers behalf. Therefore, believers in Christ will not go through God's coming wrath.

And you and others keep saying the " gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age are two separate events with different purposes." How do you know that?
It's an issue of understanding the underlying principle. This error of making the gathering of the church as taking place when the Lord returns to the earth is based in-part on the fact that, before Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, God's wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments must take place. When we became believers in Christ, we were credited with righteousness and reconciled to God, i.e. brought back into a right relationship with Him. The seals, trumpets and bowls which are God's wrath, will affect every person on the earth. It would make no sense for Jesus and the apostles to tell us to always be watching and ready if believers in Christ were going to be on the earth right along with the wicked. In regards to this time of wrath Jesus promised the following:

"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you out of the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth."

The "hour of trial" is another designation representing the time of God's wrath, which the Lord will keep believers out of.

Scripture states that Jesus is the One who will trample the winepress of the wrath of God Almighty. The seals, trumpets and bowls are that wrath. And since Jesus is the One who opens the seals, which lead to the trumpets and bowl judgments, then He will be responsible for all of the resulting fatalities. With just the accumulation of the first four seals and the 6th trumpet (a fourth and a third), this will equal over half the earths population killed within the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period and that is not counting the fatalities that will result from trumpets 1, 2 and 3, nor the fatalities from the bowl judgments. By the time the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, the majority of the earths population will have been decimated, which is supported by the following:

"For then there will be great tribulation, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again. “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."

So, according to the scripture above, if the time of God's wrath/tribulation was allowed to go on any longer than the set time, no one would be left alive on the earth. That's how bad it is going to be. People who say that the church is going to be on the earth during that time don't understand the severity of it, not the fact that we have been reconciled and are not appointed to suffer God's wrath.

In describing the details of the resurrection and the living being changed and caught up, Paul said to "comfort each other with those words." That said, if the church was to go through the wrath of God, there would be nothing to comfort each other about and that because believers would be going through the same plagues of wrath that the wicked would be going through. And we know that God does not punish the righteous with the wicked (see Lot and Noah). Also in writing to Titus, Paul called the gathering of the church/rapture the "blessed hope." If the church was to go through God's wrath, then it would be no blessed hope.

This all stems in-part from expositors who do not understand the full extent and severity of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as our status with God. These people have us going through the same punishment as the wicked, even after we have been credited with righteousness and have been reconciled to God.

Others say that the church will be protected during that time and that is because they don't understand the severity of those plagues of wrath, else they wouldn't say that.

In further support that the church will be on the earth during the time of God's wrath, throughout chapters 1 thru 3 in Revelation the word ekklesia translated as church is used 19 times. Then after that the word is never used again, except in Rev.19:6-8 where the church is alluded to as being the bride and in Rev.22:16 at the epilog. The fact is that the church is never mentioned within the narrative of God's wrath and that because it is no longer on the earth during that time. The word which appears after is hagios translated as Saints, which is referring to the great tribulation saints.

When the disciples ask Jesus when will the end of the age/world be, Jesus outlined certain events and all I see Jesus and others saying is there is only one second coming which is a single event. Not some made up second stage called the rapture that comes before the one and only second coming. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Jesus was talking about the end of the age and those who would be on the earth at that time, not the church. It's not a made up second stage, but a completely different event. It is just a matter of taking all the other scriptures into account in order to come to a right conclusion. And the belief that the Lord is going to send His reconciled bride through His wrath is not a right conclusion. God's wrath upon Jesus was enough, satisfying it completely.

God does not punish the righteous with the wicked.

I challenge you to do a close study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments and to consider what believers have inherited by believing in Christ. God's coming wrath is not something that believers will experience.
 

GaryA

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God's coming wrath is not something that believers will experience.
Correct - and the sooner you come to realize that the Wrath of God is not part of the Great Tribulation, the better you will understand a lot of things...
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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I must disagree.
Then you're not disagreeing with me, but the word of God and is why you fail to understand. The last trumpet in 1 Thess.4:16 and 1 Cor.15:52 is not the same trumpet as the loud trumpet call for the angels to collect the wicked and righteous.

We know from other scriptures that the angels will be gathering living people when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, as revealed below:

"As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

"This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

When that loud trumpet sounds when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, the angels will go throughout the entire earth and first collect the wicked who survived the tribulation and where they will be killed with that double-edged sword which proceeds out of the Lord's mouth, which is figurative representing the word of God.

The righteous who will have made it through the tribulation alive, will enter into the millennial kingdom along with the remnant of Israel and will repopulate the earth. The church, along with the resurrected great tribulation saints and the 144,000, will rule with Christ over the inhabitants of the earth during the millennial kingdom, in their immortal and glorified bodies.
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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Correct - and the sooner you come to realize that the Wrath of God is not part of the Great Tribulation, the better you will understand a lot of things...
That's ridiculous Gary! The wrath of God is the entire tribulation period, which is seven years in length. Until you and others understand this, you will always err in your interpretation of end-time events. The majority of the book of Revelation is about God's wrath and all related information. Chapters 6 through 18 all comprise the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. These are the things which must soon take place spoken of in the very verse of Revelation.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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SMH
:(
"It's sad... It's really sad..."

Those verses don't actually say all of that - not even close.

In fact, most of that appears to be completely absent from what the Bible does actually say. (anywhere in the Bible)
Aaahhhmmm OK man.

I'm done there.
 

cv5

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Apparently it never occured to you that this whole issue started with Jesus Christ Himself at Matthew 24. The disciples ask Him a question which was, "When will these things be THE SIGN OF YOUR COMING AND THE END OF THE AGE/WORLD." Matt 24:3.

Jesus then explains it and the Apostles John, Paul and Peter back up what Jesus said, it's that simple. Now, notice their specific question of, "and the sign of your coming." Does not this imply that there is only going to be one "second coming?" What did the writer of Hebrews say at Hebrews 9:28? Jesus came the first time as it relates to dying for our sins. He is coming a second time, "but wait," the Church has to be rapture first which means that His second coming now becomes a third coming if we listen you guys. :rolleyes:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Matt 24 fixation. Bereft of the understanding of the entirety of Scripture. Tragic.

Nevertheless, the Blessed Hope is there for us who believe the Scripture.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Good day GaryA,

"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed." - I Cor.15:52

"And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. " - Matt.24:31

The word "trumpet" is not exclusive to marking one specific event. That said, the "last trumpet" mentioned above is the last of a type of trumpet and not the last of every kind of trumpet, the latter of which is the error. To be clear, the "last trumpet" will be sounded to gather the dead and living in Christ to remove them from the earth; where the "loud trumpet call" will be sounded for the angels to gather first the wicked (Matt.13:30) and then the righteous which will be comprised of the remnant of Israel and the great tribulation saints who will have made it through the tribulation period alive. Matt.24:31 is not about angels gathering the church, but about gathering those alive, both righteous and wicked from every corner of the earth.

Regarding those who are resurrected and the living who are changed, Angels do not gather them, but they are raised in power, immortal and glorified and caught up by the Lord to meet Him in the air. In opposition, those who make it through the tribulation alive will be gathered by the angels when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age.

Last Trumpet = the resurrection of the dead and the living being changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air

Loud Trumpet Call = The angels gathering both the wicked and righteous who make it through the tribulation alive

Once again, the events of the gathering of the church vs. the Lord's return to the earth to end the age are two separate events with different purposes. You cannot have the gathering of the church taking place when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and that because, as I have told you before, it would put the living church through the entire wrath of God of which we are not appointed to suffer.
Such subtlties are lost on many. For no good reason.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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Correct - and the sooner you come to realize that the Wrath of God is not part of the Great Tribulation, the better you will understand a lot of things...
That is apostate madness. You are on iggy.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
Apparently it never occured to you that this whole issue started with Jesus Christ Himself at Matthew 24. The disciples ask Him a question which was, "When will these things be THE SIGN OF YOUR COMING AND THE END OF THE AGE/WORLD." Matt 24:3.

Jesus then explains it and the Apostles John, Paul and Peter back up what Jesus said, it's that simple. Now, notice their specific question of, "and the sign of your coming." Does not this imply that there is only going to be one "second coming?" What did the writer of Hebrews say at Hebrews 9:28? Jesus came the first time as it relates to dying for our sins. He is coming a second time, "but wait," the Church has to be rapture first which means that His second coming now becomes a third coming if we listen you guys. :rolleyes:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
The rapture is not technically the fulfillment of the 2nd coming when he stands on Mt Olivet. The rapture is a gathering of the saints in the clouds.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
That is apostate madness. You are on iggy.
Rev 6
15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Rev 11
18And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
Rev 14
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
9And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 15
And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.
Rev 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
 

GaryA

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Scripture states that Jesus is the One who will trample the winepress of the wrath of God Almighty.
Correct! Aaaannnd - that means He has to be here at the time He "dishes it out" - from start to finish.

(albeit, angels are involved; however, He is directing them)

Think about this for a while...
 

GaryA

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The righteous who will have made it through the tribulation alive, will enter into the millennial kingdom along with the remnant of Israel and will repopulate the earth. The church, along with the resurrected great tribulation saints and the 144,000, will rule with Christ over the inhabitants of the earth during the millennial kingdom, in their immortal and glorified bodies.
Why do you say that there will be saved people who "make it through the tribulation alive" when - at the time the 144K are sealed - they are the only saved people on earth?
 

GaryA

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The rapture is not technically the fulfillment of the 2nd coming when he stands on Mt Olivet. The rapture is a gathering of the saints in the clouds.
The Rapture is a part of the Second Coming.