The Trinity

[jacob_g]

It depends on what kind of Oneness believe they have.

1st John 2
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

I agree 100%. It is some mainstream religion that believe God the Father and Jesus are One but do not believe the Holy Spirit Is part of the Trinity. Even Though they believe in the Holy Spirit. I forget the name of the denomination...



If anyone is of this denomination please say what you are. Women where dresses and no makeup... This much I know.... My cousin lives across the country and we have not been in touch in years.... but believe me he is saved!

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I have read that the Old Testament Hebrew refers to a Big Yahweh and also a Little Yahweh. I don`t read Hebrew but there are places in the Old Testament where reference is made to two.

The earliest references to God as a trinity are found in the writings of the Catholic early church fathers. Among Catholic scholars these writings pretty much carry the same weight as scriptures.

Here`s what I think is interesting, the works are written in Latin. The Latin word for person is Homo. But when they write about the trinity the early church fathers called it a persona, three personas.

In Latin a persona is a mask that an actor wore for a part. The modern word person is derived from the latin persona. The original trinity doctrine didn`t consider the Godhead 3 persons or else they would have said 3 homo not 3 personas.

You need to be careful how you use the word "catholic".

The word "catholic" has two senses. In the first sense, "catholic" simply meant something like the "true church" opposed to false believers, which included Arians who denied the Trinity. In the second sense, "catholic" is commonly used for shorthand to refer to the Roman Catholic church, which began as a mere bishopric of the catholic church (in the first sense), and did not have any real power to dictate doctrine.

The Trinity doctrine was addressed long before Rome began to claim supremacy. Some would say that this began about 450 AD and others would say 600 AD (with Gregory) and others would say 1054 AD when the Orthodox church and Rome went separate ways.

What's my point? Many anti-Trinitarians try to claim that the Trinity was formulated by Rome. Not true. The Roman Catholic church didn't exist in that context until much later. In fact, the doctrine is biblical, and many Christians understood the essence of it. The statements were formalized later, though, in response to anti-Trinitarian heretics.

I really encourage folks to study church history. It goes a long ways toward refuting cultic claims regarding church history. Every aberrant group wants to re-write it.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I agree 100%. It is some mainstream religion that believe God the Father and Jesus are One but do not believe the Holy Spirit Is part of the Trinity. Even Though they believe in the Holy Spirit. I forget the name of the denomination...



If anyone is of this denomination please say what you are. Women where dresses and no makeup... This much I know.... My cousin lives across the country and we have not been in touch in years.... but believe me he is saved!

The followers of Herbert Armstrong believe this but they are a cult. Their church names seem Christian, though. Usually they have the phrase "Church of God" in their name".

If a church doesn't believe in the Personhood of the Holy Spirit, and that God is Triune, they aren't a Christian church. I'm not sure what you mean by your statement though.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

Although not really scientific, when you morecially break it down, but I understand 3 in 1 as water.... a liquid, solid, gas. (water, ice, evaporation). God well... He is just always God, Yahweh- the father, and as for the Son, Yahweh alway called Ephraim and Israel His son and the Holy Spirit is always referred to in pronouns; therefore it makes since God calls His Messiah Son and the Holy Spirit has His own personhood too. There is only ONE GOD, therefore the only conclusion is somehow they are three in one... I do not get it beyond water, but I do believe Jesus is Messiah my savior so by faith I believe in the trinity.....

Now with that said, I have family that belong to a church that does not believe in the trinity; yet they are saved. They believe Messiah. I do not think trinity is a prerequisite for salvation.

The three states of water sounds more like modalism, because water does not exist as a liquid, solid, gas all at the same time. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit coexist, sharing the same essence, but they are one. There is nothing like God in the physical realm, and that is why explanations often lead to wrong beliefs.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I don`t read Hebrew so explaining is a challenge. I did a quick search but was not able to retrieve the article. If you want to really pursue this you need to find some good Messianic Jewish commentary on the Godhead.

Short of that, what I can tell you is that in the Old Testament it will say Lord or God in places that could have been translated as Yahweh. One Yahweh is the Father and the other Yahweh is the being that became the Son.

I will give you an example, an easy one.

Isaiah 44:6
Thus saith the Lord the King of Israel, and his redeemer the Lord of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Notice that it implies that two are talking and makes a distinction between two lords. the King and His Redeemer.

I ask you, how many first and last I am can there be?


Revelation 1
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;

13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.

14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;

15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.

16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.

17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Concerning this verse:


Isaiah 44:6 Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
and his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
“I am the first and I am the last;
besides me there is no god.
(ESV Strong's)

If I am understanding you correctly, it seems like you think there are two Persons in this verse. Here's what I think....the LORD, the King of Israel, is saying that he is Israel's Redeemer.

Jesus himself is Yahweh (LORD) so there is no issue with this.

The verse indeed proves that God is one.

I don't believe there are two Persons in this verse, though.

By the way, I am a Trinitarian..if there are two Persons in this verse, it doesn't challenge me

 

[p_rehbein]

I have been involved in a few conversations as of late concerning the trinity. The most popular statement I hear God in three persons. Now I do understand the thought behind it as God the Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are all one as God. As I have thought about this over time I have come to say some people believe that is the only way one should view it. However the Bible never called God three persons but says that there are three that bare record in heaven The Father, The Word and The Holy Ghost and these three are one (1 John 5:7). I have heard some say as I have that God has chosen to reveal himself to the world in these three words because (John 1:1-3) says In the beginning the Word was God and the Word was with God the same as in the beginning with God. All things were created by him and without him was not anything made. Then in Verse 16 it says The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us. My whole point is who is right or wrong when we cannot explain it to a clear understanding. Therefore I say the way you understand it that all three are one God (the Godhead) I do not thing it matters that much.

First:
Are you stating your belief in the Holy Trinity? Or are you denying the Holy Trinity?

Second: With my comment, this Thread now has 25 comments. Hard to miss that you have not responded to any of the 24 comments in response to your OP. Is there some reason you are failing to do so?

 

[bluto]

The followers of Herbert Armstrong believe this but they are a cult. Their church names seem Christian, though. Usually they have the phrase "Church of God" in their name".

If a church doesn't believe in the Personhood of the Holy Spirit, and that God is Triune, they aren't a Christian church. I'm not sure what you mean by your statement though.

Actually they changed their ways under new leadership at least accoding to the following article.

https://www.equip.org/article/the-worldwide-church-of-god-resurrected-into-orthodoxy/

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[Lightskin]

For me, the Trinity is the most difficult aspect of our faith. I simply lean on Jesus to get me through all the heady stuff that goes far beyond my pay grade.