Hi – you misunderstand me. I an in general agreement with you, just saying there are difference of opinions.
I’m not trying to put my opinion on you or say you are wrong. Just that, thats the way you read it but not everyone agrees with that interpretation, not 100% fact proof - opinion based.
I understood that this site was not the right forum to have a debate as some get offended, which I don’t want to do.
As you appear to want a detailed response, I forwarded this to my debate group and the below is the reply I got from one of them to you and ‘bluto’
Response:
This is a summary of a response you can go into each point in great length, but would be too long. I make the following bullet points;
I’m not trying to put my opinion on you or say you are wrong. Just that, thats the way you read it but not everyone agrees with that interpretation, not 100% fact proof - opinion based.
I understood that this site was not the right forum to have a debate as some get offended, which I don’t want to do.
As you appear to want a detailed response, I forwarded this to my debate group and the below is the reply I got from one of them to you and ‘bluto’
Response:
This is a summary of a response you can go into each point in great length, but would be too long. I make the following bullet points;
- The mind of the time – no one at the time of Jesus or before (the Israelites) ever considered the trinity.
- Gospel of John
- historical record of the gospel not until the end of the 2nd century
- 2nd century Justin Martyr advocated a logos Christology without citing John’s Gospel explicitly. Such an omission would be strange if it had existed.
- Bishop Polycarp – allegedly a student of John the Apostle never quotes John in his letter to the Philippians. Albeit, he quotes Mark, Matthew, Luke…
- Genesis 1:2 – some like the Samaritan bible, NRSV etc… use the term "the wind of God" instead of "the spirit of God"! – Psalms 33:6 ‘breath’. Wind or Breath is the more accurate translation of the word "ruach".
- Genesis 1:1 does not mention the ‘word’
- John 1:3 does not mention the trinuine
- John 1:3 should arguably be translated into English as “it” not “him” as English does not have gender in noun eg. In Greek, “wind” (anemos) is masculine, but we would not translate it into English that way. We would say, “The wind was blowing so hard ‘it’ blew the trash cans over,” not “the wind, ‘he’ blew the trash cans over.” When translating from another language into English,
- John 3:5-6 –This is a peculiar passage could have many meanings. but 3:7 says you have to be ‘borne again’ for salvation or some parts say you have to be baptised - Luke 23:43 the thief on the cross appears to have been saved without either.
- John 1:18 – ‘The only begotten Son’ – begotten is someone created, how can Jesus be God and created?
- John 10:33 - The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
- The Thomas story has many issues;
- Was he not the eleven as Luke 24:-36 and why is nothing recorded as to holes, wounds…etc…
- Why is the Gospel of Thomas disregarded
- Matt 10:7-8 “raised the dead” – Jesus gave the 12 power to raise the dead, so why would he not believe that Jesus could be raised. Why couldn’t they raise Jesus instead of fleeing? Why have we no records of them raising people from the dead?
- Psalm 82:6 I said, “You are gods, And all of you are children of the Most High.
"gods" here in Hebrew is "Elohim", which is plural of "EL". It is the same exact thing as "EL" used for Jesus in Isaiah 9:6, since "gods" is a combination of several "EL"s. And as clearly shown here, for someone to be called "god" or "God" in the Bible it wouldn't make him GOD Almighty Himself. - Isaiah doesn’t help.
- Paul - arguably preached another Jesus as a lot of his teachings are contrary to Jesus
- Colossians 1:15-16 –
- ‘God created man in his own image’ (not only Jesus). ‘Firstborn’ would imply created & others were firstborn - Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn."
- 1 Corinthians 8:6 - yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
There's an analogy I often times use, which I think is appropriate here: If you tell a story to an individual, and they pass that story along to another, eventually by the 10th retelling of the story it will lose some of it's (pertinent) details.
By me telling you the problems "galore" with these comments, you may or may not pass that same information back to those individuals in the way I am expressing towards you.
If it is one person you are getting this information from, tell them that William Jordan said they get an "F." And if I could give them an F-minus, then I'd probably do that. But I don't think there is an "F-minus" category. This is one of those situations where I'd get them on audio blast to have a full length conversation.
I love a good pretzel.
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