The Trinity.

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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#21
What is your problem? You act like witnessing to people has to be a "canned" response the way you do it or it don't count.
Not a canned response at all, but the full and true Gospel. You do not preach "Christ crucified" and omit the Father and the Holy Spirit. So the question should really be whether the Gospel of Christ is being preached as it should be.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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#22
Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

I know how people try to attribute this to Jesus Christ … But that is biblically wrong.

Logos (word) has a wide range of meanings along two basic lines of thought. One is the mind and products of the mind, like reason (thus logic is related to logos) ….the other is the expression of that reason as, a word, saying, command, etc.

Logos is used in the Greek over 300X and translated over 35 different ways, including ….appearance, book, command, conversation, flattery, grievance, instruction, matter, message, ministry, proposal, question, report rumor, sentence, speaker, speaking,………… and more.

Jesus Christ it's not a lexicon definition of logos….and it does not say in the beginning was Jesus. The word (logos) is not synonymous with Jesus or even the Messiah …..The word logos in John_1:1 refers to God's creative self-expression…. his reason purpose and plan especially as they are brought into action. It refers to God's self-expression or communication of himself.


Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.



Jhn 1:3 All things were made by Him (God); and without Him was not any thing made that was made.

Jhn 1:4 In Him (God) was life; and the life was the light of men.

Jhn 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Jhn 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.


Jhn 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light (God), that all men through him (John) might believe.


Jhn 1:8 He (John) was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light (God).


Jhn 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. ←[That’s God]


Jhn 1:10 He (God) was in the world, and the world was made by him (God), and the world knew him (God) not.



Jhn 1:11 He (God) came unto his own, and His own received him not. ←[His own… Israel]


Jhn 1:12 But as many as received Him (God), to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: his name = name sake

Now Jesus is on the scene

Jhn 1:13 Which (Jesus) was born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
No, the Bible is not wrong regarding John 1:1. "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

From this text alone you should know that something doesn't fit with your understanding here: "One is the mind and products of the mind, like reason (thus logic is related to logos) ….the other is the expression of that reason as, a word, saying, command, etc."

You will note that this says "the" (definite article) word (singular) existed. It doesn't say God's word or words, or God's reasoning/plans existed. It specifically says, "The Word existed...." And "The Word existed how? The Word existed with God. See, in John 1:1b The Word and the God are distinct, there is a subject/object distinction between the two. And finally, "The Word was God."

So whatever God is, The Word is, and vice versa. So if "The Word" is impersonal, (which you are advocating) God is impersonal...If "the Word is just a thought or a plan, then "The God" is just a thought or a plan. But remember, "The Word" singular existed, and "The Word" is not "The God" in John 1:1b.

Now, to back up what I've stated we have John 1:2-3 stating, "He was in the beginning with God. Vs3, "All things came into being by Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being." There's something else that needs to be said. Genesis 1:1 states, "In the beginning." John 1:1 starts out with, "In the beginning" as well.

The main though in the Genesis 1:1 beginning is WHAT HAPPENED "in the beginning." The John 1:1, "in the beginning the main thought is "WHO EXISTED" in the beginning. Maybe you can explain what sense would it make that God's "word or words" are with God? Or what sense would it make that God's thoughts and plans are with God? Care to explain that Artios1?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,045
514
113
#23
Not a canned response at all, but the full and true Gospel. You do not preach "Christ crucified" and omit the Father and the Holy Spirit. So the question should really be whether the Gospel of Christ is being preached as it should be.
You act as if I completely ignore God the Father and the Holy Spirit, I do not. My focus is on "Who is Jesus Christ." Sometimes I will say, "Who is Jesus Christ" and 99% of the time they will say, "The Son of God." Then I will say "In what respect is Jesus the Son of God?" Then I might bring up John 3:16 and ask why does the verse say Jesus is the "Only" Son of God? Then go from there.

Now, tell me for the third time if you believe water baptism is necessary for salvation?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,601
13,017
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#24
You act as if I completely ignore God the Father and the Holy Spirit, I do not.
Then why did you make this statement in the first place? "Well I have said the following for years. "I do not believe Trinitarianism is a REQUIREMENT for salvation."

If you wish you can tell the readers that you misspoke. Nothing wrong with admitting your error.
 
Dec 30, 2020
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#25
Are you poking fun at other Christian's beliefs? Before you start discussing the Trinity, you need to investigate the history of the Trinity because the topic of the Trinity has been under discussion since the third century AD. It was the main topic in the first ecumenical council ever held in Nicaea in 325 AD under Constantine, who invited 1800 bishops from all over the Roman empire with around 300 in attendance. Different ideas about the divinity of Jesus and His relationship to the Father had come up under the names of Modalism, Sabellianism, Arianism, Miletianism, etc. Constantine was the first Christian emperor of the Roman Empire and with time, Christianity became an accepted religion with the Edict of Milan in 315 AD and eventually the prevalent religion. Fearful that all of these conflicting beliefs would cause schisms in his empire, Constantine ordered the council so that the bishops would come to a consensus as to what Christians should believe. Topics discussed were Arianism, when to celebrate Easter, and Miletianism. Arius and his followers believed that Christ was a created being. Easter had been observed and tied to the Jewish observance of Passover. However, the bishops of Nicaea didn't want their holy day to be beholden to a Jewish holiday. The new rule was that Easter had to be held on a Sunday but not on Passover. The attendees settled on Easter being held each year on the first Sunday after the full moon after the vernal equinox. Easter falls between March 22 and April 25 using this formula. The most severe persecution of Christians occurred just before Constantine became emperor. Many bishops succumbed to torture and denounced their faith. So another topic of conversation was whether or not to accept them back. Most bishops said yes, but Miletius refused them back and said no, and even ordained bishops within and outside his diocese. He was denounced as a disturber of the peace, was allowed to remain a bishop as long as he would stop ordaining outside his diocese. At the end of the council, Arius was declared a heretic and exiled. Constantine ordered all of Arius' writings to be burned and declared that anyone found with his writings would be punished with death. Arianism still continued to grow. It was there that the concept of three personalities in one God, all being equally God was declared.
Five Major Problems with the Trinity by Sean Finnegan
In mathematics, for something to be true, it must always be true. To prove something false, all you have to do is provide a contradiction. Most people's belief on the Trinity is pretty much set so the plan is to be respectful of their belief and simply show that their belief is inadequate.
Our Strategy
Assume the Trinity is true and see from an internal perspective what problems there might be. People aren't willing to consider a new option until they are convinced that their old option is inadequate.
Problem #1. Jesus was a Jew who believed the same about God as other Jews. First century Jews did not believe in the Trinity. Their Scriptures proclaimed radical monotheism. The reason why the Jews do not believe in the Trinity, then or now, is because of the Jewish Scriptures that proclaim monotheism. Deut 4: 35, 39 To you it was shown so that you would acknowledge that the Lord is God; there is no other besides him. So acknowledge today and take to heart that the Lord is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other. In Mark 12: 28-34 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all commandments is: Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord; And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is no other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth; for there is one God, and there is no other but he. And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. Jesus confessed the Shema, the core creed of Judaism, without altering it at all. How would the Jewish scribe have heard this? As a Trinitarian creed? If the Trinity was true, Jesus would have corrected or altered the Shema. Instead, he praises the scribe.
Problem #2 The Trinity is never explained in Scripture. Sure one can pull together a verse here and there, in order to find support for an a priori theory ( not based on evidence). There is not a book, a chapter, or a verse that mentions or explains God as a Trinity.
What is the Trinity?
one God in three persons (one being or essence with 3 personalities)
co-eternal (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have always existed)
co-essential (they share the same essence)
co-equal (the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God)
eternal generation (the begotten Son has always existed)
dual natures of Christ in one person (divine and human)
in their union each nature preserves its distinct attributes (Jesus is all human and all God)
two wills in Christ- divine and human- never conflict
The Trinity is like an oral tradition taught along side of Scripture passed down from the apostles (remember that we are assuming that the Trinity is true) from generation to generation, and it was never written down and no one really ever talked about it until the heretics came to challenge it. This is analogous to the Pharisees who made a big deal about maintaining tradition and were denounced by Jesus.
Is It Really Necessary If.....
it is never explained by Jesus
it is never preached as gospel in the book of Acts
it is never explained in the epistles of Paul, James, Peter, or John
it is just one theory among several which tries to explain God in light of Scripture

Problem #3
No Jews who converted to Christianity ever challenged the Trinity (lack of controversy). If the Trinity is true, then Jesus and His apostles must have believed it and taught it. The lack of controversy amongst the Jewish Christians shows that the subject was never elaborated on because it did not exist in their minds at that time. The NT is full of controversies, from factions to speaking in tongues to impropriety at communion, over whether Gentiles could be accepted into Christianity, over whether justification came through the works of the law or by faith, etc. The Trinity was not one of them.
Problem #4 God is always addressed using singular personal pronouns (you). In our language the pronoun "you" can be singular or plural. In the NT the singular or plural of "you" uses different word forms. God is always spoken of using singular personal pronouns (He, not they). God almost always speaks using singular personal pronouns (I,not we, my, not our, me, not us(except the four "us texts" in which God is including others in an action (Gen 1: 26, Gen 3: 22, Gen 11: 7, and Isaiah 6:8))). Singular personal pronouns are used for singular persons. If God were a trinity, we should find plural pronouns, but we don't. Thousands of times we are confronted by the fact that God is a single individual.
Problem #5 Jesus was not omniscient God knows everything that can be known, but if the Trinity is true, then Jesus is fully God, and so He should have full knowledge. Mark 13: 32 But about that day or hour no one knows, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Jesus is confessing that there is something that He doesn't know.
Col 1:15-16 Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions, or principalities, or powers--all things were created by Him, and for Him.
Christ's existence emanated from the Father's essence from which all things exist. Christ is the first living spiritual being that came from the Father. That is why He is the Father's Son. Just like the Father, Christ has His own mind, heart, and soul. Because the Father's essence completely fills Christ's being, Christ, with His free will, chooses to love and obey Him. That is why He sits at the Father's right hand (to do the Father's will). The Father communicates His will to the Son through His essence (the Holy Spirit).
 
Dec 30, 2020
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#26
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
How important is it to understand the Trinity? To those that claim that the Trinity is a mystery beyond our understanding, from a brother who loves you, you had better do a better job of investigating before giving up and declaring " It's a mystery." Knowing the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is the basis for understanding Scripture. Jesus is the Christ, and Christ is our Lord, our God, and our Savior, but the Father is the One God of all (including Christ).
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know Thee, the only true God and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
How important is it to understand the Trinity? To those that claim that the Trinity is a mystery beyond our understanding, from a brother who loves you, you had better do a better job of investigating before giving up and declaring " It's a mystery." Knowing the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is the basis for understanding Scripture. Jesus is the Christ, and Christ is our Lord, our God, and our Savior, but the Father is the One God of all (including Christ).
 
Dec 30, 2020
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#27
Eph 1: 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ,
Christ is not Jesus' last name. Jesus the Christ would be more accurate. Christ is the Father's son before He became Jesus, because Christ's spirit proceedeth from the Father's spirit before anything was made. The Father has no beginning, but the beginning started when Christ came into existence with His own spirit and mind. Christ sits on the Father's right hand which means that all that the Father wants is accomplished by Christ. The Father communicates and empowers Christ through His Spirit. The Father created all things and accomplished all things through Christ. They share a special love that we can't fathom until we are born again and share in that love. It is the Father that blesses us with spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ because when we are born again, we become part of Christ's spiritual body due to the indwelling of the Spirit of the Father which was given to Jesus when He went back to Heaven to get glorified (filled with the Father's Spirit). As part of Christ's spiritual body, we will be partakers of all the spiritual blessings which will be given Him by the Father.
Hebrews 1: 5 For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?
And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
Christ's existence emanated from the Father's essence from which all things exist. Christ is the first living spiritual being that came from the Father. That is why He is the Father's Son. Just like the Father, Christ has His own mind, heart, and soul. Because the Father's essence completely fills Christ's being, Christ, with His free will, chooses to love and obey Him. That is why He sits at the Father's right hand (to do the Father's will). The Father communicates His will to the Son through His essence. The Father and Son are One in that whatever the Father wants, the Son wants also. The Son's will might differ from the Father, but the Son gladly acquiesces to the will of the Father. When Christ became a man, the essence of God the Father, through which Mary's seed was fertilized, again resulted in Christ being born but this time as a human. The Father and Son relationship occurs a second time.
 
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#28
Matt 26: 39 And He went a little further, and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt. John 6: 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will but the will of Him that sent me. From these verses we can see that the Father and the Son have different wills although the Son subjugates His will and obeys the Father's will. Christ is the God who is active in both the Old and New Testament and fulfills the Father's will.
Exodus 6: 3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them. Christ appeared to them in the name of the Father but His name is Jehovah. It was the Father that appeared in Spirit because Christ is filled with the Father's Spirit and and the Father's Spirit talks through Christ ( JEHOVAH) (who is also a spirit).
Christ is our Savior, our Lord, and our God, but the Father is the father and God of all. Christ died for all mankind and wishes that all be saved but the Father's justice demands that only a few be saved.
Trinitarians believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all have the same mind and will.
 
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#29
The one God of all is the only unbegotten because He has always existed. Chicken beget chicken, horses beget horses, reptiles beget reptiles. The offsprings are not clones of the parents but have their own features and characteristics, and will. Why is it so difficult to understand that Christ is the only begotten Son of the Father means that the Father existed before Christ was begotten. Isaiah 43: 10 ... before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. This verse is spoken by Christ because the Father has no beginning but apparently, the God (Christ) in Isaiah 43: 10 had a time that existed before Him which means that He didn't always exist in the past. Actually, the beginning started when Christ was formed out of the Father's essence. Alpha and Omega means the first and the last. The Father is the one God of all including Christ. Christ is the one God of all creation.
 

Komentaja

Active member
Jul 29, 2022
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#30
Matt 26: 39 And He went a little further, and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt. John 6: 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will but the will of Him that sent me. From these verses we can see that the Father and the Son have different wills although the Son subjugates His will and obeys the Father's will. Christ is the God who is active in both the Old and New Testament and fulfills the Father's will.
Exodus 6: 3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them. Christ appeared to them in the name of the Father but His name is Jehovah. It was the Father that appeared in Spirit because Christ is filled with the Father's Spirit and and the Father's Spirit talks through Christ ( JEHOVAH) (who is also a spirit).
Christ is our Savior, our Lord, and our God, but the Father is the father and God of all. Christ died for all mankind and wishes that all be saved but the Father's justice demands that only a few be saved.
Trinitarians believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all have the same mind and will.
That is some WEIRD theology there. Never heard of that! Not biblical whatsoever. Beware folks
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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#31
Then why did you make this statement in the first place? "Well I have said the following for years. "I do not believe Trinitarianism is a REQUIREMENT for salvation."

If you wish you can tell the readers that you misspoke. Nothing wrong with admitting your error.
Not on your life! Now, tell me this, what did the Apostle Paul tell the jailer at Acts 16:30-32 when the jailer said, "What must I do to be saved?" "And they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household." Vs32. "And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together to all who were in his house." Do you honestly think that Paul explained the Trinity to them?

Tell me, do you know why the concept of the Trinity was formed in the first place? And the Apostle Paul defined the gospel at 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Vs3, "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures etc. You can read it all for yourself.

Now, tell me for the fourth time if you believe water baptism is necessary for salvation? Why are you "hiding" from my question?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

Fundaamental

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2023
3,289
421
83
#34
Not on your life! Now, tell me this, what did the Apostle Paul tell the jailer at Acts 16:30-32 when the jailer said, "What must I do to be saved?" "And they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus, and you shall be saved, you and your household." Vs32. "And they spoke the word of the Lord to him together to all who were in his house." Do you honestly think that Paul explained the Trinity to them?

Tell me, do you know why the concept of the Trinity was formed in the first place? And the Apostle Paul defined the gospel at 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Vs3, "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures etc. You can read it all for yourself.

Now, tell me for the fourth time if you believe water baptism is necessary for salvation? Why are you "hiding" from my question?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
very well said my friend 😊
 

Ted01

Well-known member
May 14, 2022
1,055
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#35
IMHO, to deny the Trinity is one thing... to not understand another.
Understanding the Trinity is not a prerequisite for Salvation.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,062
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New Zealand
#36
Coming out of discussion in one of the threads, "Can you be a true Christian and deny belief in the Trinity?"
Let's discuss.
Someone can get born again believing in Jesus as God..that He died and rose again, and that by believing in Him they have eternal life.

They may then learn the Trinity teaching later.

But....if they are taught Jesus isn't God straight off the bat... denying the Trinity that way ...then they won't be born again.

John 3 16 has belief in Jesus as God..same with 5:24.. 8:40..etc

Also Romans 10:9-10.. but they don't overtly describe the Trinity.

But in saying this ... John 3 16 has God sending Jesus.. and Romans 10..
it is calling on the Lord...which is used for the Father.

I think though.. the mechanics of how the Trinity operates isn't essential to salvation.. but belief in Jesus as God is.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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#37
IMHO, to deny the Trinity is one thing... to not understand another.
Understanding the Trinity is not a prerequisite for Salvation.[/QUOTE

That's exactly right. The problem I'm having with nehemiah is that he thinks when you witness to people you HAVE to explain the Trinity to people and tell them that the Father is God, the Son is God and the Holy Spirit is God.

Of course that's true but when witnessing you have to go where the Lord is leading you in the conversation.

Another problem with nehemiah is the fact that he believes that water baptism is necessary to be saved. I"ve asked him four times if that"s what he believes and he will not admit to it.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
Dec 30, 2020
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#38
Col 1:15-16 Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; For by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions, or principalities, or powers--all things were created by Him, and for Him.
Isaiah 43: 10 ...
before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. This verse is spoken by Christ because the Father has no beginning but apparently, the God (Christ) in Isaiah 43: 10 had a time that existed before Him which means that He didn't always exist in the past. Actually, the beginning started when Christ was formed out of the Father's essence. Alpha and Omega means the first and the last. The Father is the one God of all including Christ. Christ is the one God of all creation.
 

Saul-to-Paul

Junior Member
Jun 5, 2017
341
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28
#39
Coming out of discussion in one of the threads, "Can you be a true Christian and deny belief in the Trinity?"
Let's discuss.
The trinity is from the minds of men, not from God of the Bible. Yes, one can be a Christian and deny a false teaching such as the trinity.