The Trinity.

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rstrats

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2011
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#61
Not that it proves anything of course, but with regard to the Trinity I think it's interesting to note that Paul never once includes the Holy Spirit in any of his letter's salutations.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,045
514
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#62
An heretic after the first and second admonition REJECT. We are not obligated to keep on discussing Bible truth with heretics.
Your concern is noted but I will determine when to and when not to follow the Bible's admonition. Sometimes when dealing with people in witnessing you notice things in their words that their not really "hard core" in their beliefs and may be open to what your saying behind the scenes, it's called discernment. Plus the fact that others, like lurkers read this stuff and may learn from what one posts, it's called "Apologetics and /or "Polemics. 1 Peter 3:15

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,277
26,325
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#63
Not that it proves anything of course, but with regard to the Trinity I think it's interesting
to note that Paul never once includes the Holy Spirit in any of his letter's salutations.
1 Thessalonians 1:6 And you became imitators of us and of the Lord when you
welcomed the message with the joy of the Holy Spirit, in spite of your great suffering.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,045
514
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#64
Not that it proves anything of course, but with regard to the Trinity I think it's interesting to note that Paul never once includes the Holy Spirit in any of his letter's salutations.
May I ask what is your point? I don't want to get to technical but in logic your making an "argument from silence." It's like saying, "In the book of Philemon the Apostle Paul never once mentioned that Jesus Christ is God. So what are we to do with the other books of the Bible where Jesus is identified as God, discount them?

You see my point? Btw, the Holy Spirit is mentioned as God at Acts 5:4. Something to remember, "God only has to speak once for it to be the truth." Hang in there!

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
Dec 30, 2020
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#65
God awful. That's 3 gods. That's heathenism.
That is Sabellianism. They believed that their is only one god and he takes on the three different characters of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. This idea was considered heresy by the early 3rd and 4th century church. Yet, this concept was adopted in the form of the Trinity during the Counsel of Nicaea under the Emperor Constantine in the year 325 AD.
 
Jun 20, 2022
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#66
i think anyone can deny the word, Trinity.
what they absolutely cannot deny, is the Fact the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit is the Triune God, Who is ONE, but 3 in Same Essence [the key word used in the 325 AD Creed - Same Essence].

Consubstantiality, a term derived from Latin: consubstantialitas, denotes identity of substance or essence in spite of difference in aspect.

It appears most commonly in its adjectival form, "consubstantial",[2] from Latin consubstantialis,[3] and its best-known use is in regard to an account, in Christian theology, of the relation between Jesus Christ and God the Father.


Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God,] Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
 
Jun 20, 2022
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#67
Not that it proves anything of course, but with regard to the Trinity I think it's interesting to note that Paul never once includes the Holy Spirit in any of his letter's salutations.
nor do we see anyone praying to the Holy Spirit.
Jesus taught us to to Pray to the Father in Jesus Name.
no mention of the Holy Spirit even in the Lord's Prayer.

good catch, to your post!

we are to Pray, in the Spirit, but i see nowhere to the Spirit.

SHOULD WE PRAY DIRECTLY TO THE HOLY SPIRIT?
Is it proper for believers to pray directly to the Holy Spirit without mentioning God the Father or Jesus Christ? The answer is no. Believers are not to speak directly, or pray, to the Holy Spirit. There are a number of reasons as to why this is so. They can be summed up as follows.

The Holy Spirit Does Not Speak of Himself
It is the ministry of the Holy Spirit to speak of Jesus Christ. He does not speak of Himself. Jesus said that the Holy Spirit was given to remind His disciples of the things which He said.
 

rstrats

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2011
723
42
28
#68
[QUOTE="bluto, May I ask what is your point? [/QUOTE]

Just curious why, if the Holy Spirit is a co-equal individual person within the divine family, Paul didn't include the Spirit in his greetings. You can make of it what you will.

Btw, the Holy Spirit is mentioned as God at Acts 5:4.
Hence my comment.
 
Dec 30, 2020
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#69
i think anyone can deny the word, Trinity.
what they absolutely cannot deny, is the Fact the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit is the Triune God, Who is ONE, but 3 in Same Essence [the key word used in the 325 AD Creed - Same Essence].

Consubstantiality, a term derived from Latin: consubstantialitas, denotes identity of substance or essence in spite of difference in aspect.

It appears most commonly in its adjectival form, "consubstantial",[2] from Latin consubstantialis,[3] and its best-known use is in regard to an account, in Christian theology, of the relation between Jesus Christ and God the Father.


Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God,] Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
Consubstantiality, a term made up by man with only one application. God is one, not a group. The Father is God of all, including Christ. Christ is Lord and God of all creation. Both are our God, but they are not the same because they have different wills. Christ obeyed the Father's will (not His own) and was sent while in heaven. Begotten by the Father and of the same essence I agree with. Saying that they are the same being reeks of modalism or sebellianism ( both were condemned as heresy before the council of Nicaea in 325 AD). Jews never believed in a Triune God and never will.
 
Jun 20, 2022
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#70
Consubstantiality, a term made up by man with only one application. God is one, not a group. The Father is God of all, including Christ. Christ is Lord and God of all creation. Both are our God, but they are not the same because they have different wills. Christ obeyed the Father's will (not His own) and was sent while in heaven. Begotten by the Father and of the same essence I agree with. Saying that they are the same being reeks of modalism or sebellianism ( both were condemned as heresy before the council of Nicaea in 325 AD). Jews never believed in a Triune God and never will.
You accuse me of something I never claimed.
Is there a reason for it?
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
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#71
No, you can't. The Tri-unity of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is one of the essential tenets of the Christian faith. Remove the Trinity and you no longer have Christianity.

I'll go with the big dog on this one. We're of the same mind on this one.
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
3,332
1,418
113
#72
The Bible teaches the Word (which was God) became FLESH. So that is what you have to believe. Lets stick to the Scriptures

The Scriptures teach the trinity, whether the actual word is used or not. Jesus is deity, God in three persons.
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
3,332
1,418
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#73
That is some WEIRD theology there. Never heard of that! Not biblical whatsoever. Beware folks
Yeah, that is one messed up ball of wax. I don't know where to begin pulling that apart. You've nailed it with your comment.
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
3,332
1,418
113
#74
Not that it proves anything of course, but with regard to the Trinity I think it's interesting to note that Paul never once includes the Holy Spirit in any of his letter's salutations.
You're right, that doesn't prove anything.
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
3,332
1,418
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#75
Christ's existence emanated from the Father's essence from which all things exist. Christ is the first living spiritual being that came from the Father. That is why He is the Father's Son. Just like the Father, Christ has His own mind, heart, and soul. Because the Father's essence completely fills Christ's being, Christ, with His free will, chooses to love and obey Him. That is why He sits at the Father's right hand (to do the Father's will). The Father communicates His will to the Son through His essence (the Holy Spirit).

Spiritual being, like an angel? What do you mean by that? Is Jesus God?
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
2,045
514
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#76
You're right, that doesn't prove anything.
I'm curious, why did you use the "surprised" logo on my post 43? My intent was to show that the only thing Saul to Paul got right was the fact that God is Spirit. I probably should have stated such. Keep up the good work.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 
Dec 30, 2020
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#77
The Scriptures teach the trinity, whether the actual word is used or not. Jesus is deity, God in three persons.
Five Major Problems with the Trinity by Sean Finnegan
In mathematics, for something to be true, it must always be true. To prove something false, all you have to do is provide a contradiction. Most people's belief on the Trinity is pretty much set so the plan is to be respectful of their belief and simply show that their belief is inadequate.
Our Strategy
Assume the Trinity is true and see from an internal perspective what problems there might be. People aren't willing to consider a new option until they are convinced that their old option is inadequate.
Problem #1. Jesus was a Jew who believed the same about God as other Jews. First century Jews did not believe in the Trinity. Their Scriptures proclaimed radical monotheism. The reason why the Jews do not believe in the Trinity, then or now, is because of the Jewish Scriptures that proclaim monotheism. Deut 4: 35, 39 To you it was shown so that you would acknowledge that the Lord is God; there is no other besides him. So acknowledge today and take to heart that the Lord is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other. In Mark 12: 28-34 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all commandments is: Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord; And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is no other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth; for there is one God, and there is no other but he. And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. Jesus confessed the Shema, the core creed of Judaism, without altering it at all. How would the Jewish scribe have heard this? As a Trinitarian creed? If the Trinity was true, Jesus would have corrected or altered the Shema. Instead, he praises the scribe.
Problem #2 The Trinity is never explained in Scripture. Sure one can pull together a verse here and there, in order to find support for an a priori theory ( not based on evidence). There is not a book, a chapter, or a verse that mentions or explains God as a Trinity.
What is the Trinity?
one God in three persons (one being or essence with 3 personalities)
co-eternal (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have always existed)
co-essential (they share the same essence)
co-equal (the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God)
eternal generation (the begotten Son has always existed)
dual natures of Christ in one person (divine and human)
in their union each nature preserves its distinct attributes (Jesus is all human and all God)
two wills in Christ- divine and human- never conflict
The Trinity is like an oral tradition taught along side of Scripture passed down from the apostles (remember that we are assuming that the Trinity is true) from generation to generation, and it was never written down and no one really ever talked about it until the heretics came to challenge it. This is analogous to the Pharisees who made a big deal about maintaining tradition and were denounced by Jesus.
Is It Really Necessary If.....
it is never explained by Jesus
it is never preached as gospel in the book of Acts
it is never explained in the epistles of Paul, James, Peter, or John
it is just one theory among several which tries to explain God in light of Scripture
 
Dec 30, 2020
868
226
43
#78
Five Major Problems with the Trinity by Sean Finnegan
In mathematics, for something to be true, it must always be true. To prove something false, all you have to do is provide a contradiction. Most people's belief on the Trinity is pretty much set so the plan is to be respectful of their belief and simply show that their belief is inadequate.
Our Strategy
Assume the Trinity is true and see from an internal perspective what problems there might be. People aren't willing to consider a new option until they are convinced that their old option is inadequate.
Problem #1. Jesus was a Jew who believed the same about God as other Jews. First century Jews did not believe in the Trinity. Their Scriptures proclaimed radical monotheism. The reason why the Jews do not believe in the Trinity, then or now, is because of the Jewish Scriptures that proclaim monotheism. Deut 4: 35, 39 To you it was shown so that you would acknowledge that the Lord is God; there is no other besides him. So acknowledge today and take to heart that the Lord is God in heaven above and on the earth beneath; there is no other. In Mark 12: 28-34 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all commandments is: Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord; And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is no other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth; for there is one God, and there is no other but he. And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbor as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. Jesus confessed the Shema, the core creed of Judaism, without altering it at all. How would the Jewish scribe have heard this? As a Trinitarian creed? If the Trinity was true, Jesus would have corrected or altered the Shema. Instead, he praises the scribe.
Problem #2 The Trinity is never explained in Scripture. Sure one can pull together a verse here and there, in order to find support for an a priori theory ( not based on evidence). There is not a book, a chapter, or a verse that mentions or explains God as a Trinity.
What is the Trinity?
one God in three persons (one being or essence with 3 personalities)
co-eternal (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have always existed)
co-essential (they share the same essence)
co-equal (the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God)
eternal generation (the begotten Son has always existed)
dual natures of Christ in one person (divine and human)
in their union each nature preserves its distinct attributes (Jesus is all human and all God)
two wills in Christ- divine and human- never conflict
The Trinity is like an oral tradition taught along side of Scripture passed down from the apostles (remember that we are assuming that the Trinity is true) from generation to generation, and it was never written down and no one really ever talked about it until the heretics came to challenge it. This is analogous to the Pharisees who made a big deal about maintaining tradition and were denounced by Jesus.
Is It Really Necessary If.....
it is never explained by Jesus
it is never preached as gospel in the book of Acts
it is never explained in the epistles of Paul, James, Peter, or John
it is just one theory among several which tries to explain God in light of Scripture
Problem #3 No Jews who converted to Christianity ever challenged the Trinity (lack of controversy). If the Trinity is true, then Jesus and His apostles must have believed it and taught it. The lack of controversy amongst the Jewish Christians shows that the subject was never elaborated on because it did not exist in their minds at that time. The NT is full of controversies, from factions to speaking in tongues to impropriety at communion, over whether Gentiles could be accepted into Christianity, over whether justification came through the works of the law or by faith, etc. The Trinity was not one of them.
Problem #4 God is always addressed using singular personal pronouns (you). In our language the pronoun "you" can be singular or plural. In the NT the singular or plural of "you" uses different word forms. God is always spoken of using singular personal pronouns (He, not they). God almost always speaks using singular personal pronouns (I,not we, my, not our, me, not us(except the four "us texts" in which God is including others in an action (Gen 1: 26, Gen 3: 22, Gen 11: 7, and Isaiah 6:8))). Singular personal pronouns are used for singular persons. If God were a trinity, we should find plural pronouns, but we don't. Thousands of times we are confronted by the fact that God is a single individual.
Problem #5 Jesus was not omniscient God knows everything that can be known, but if the Trinity is true, then Jesus is fully God, and so He should have full knowledge. Mark 13: 32 But about that day or hour no one knows, neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. Jesus is confessing that there is something that He doesn't know.
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
3,332
1,418
113
#79
I'm curious, why did you use the "surprised" logo on my post 43? My intent was to show that the only thing Saul to Paul got right was the fact that God is Spirit. I probably should have stated such. Keep up the good work.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Thank you for explaining more fully, I'll go back and remove it.