The Trinity

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,163
2,177
113
I don't know who you think the AI would be.
Early on, you had provided excuse for your logical processes stemming from autism. But even if society tends to provide excuse due to illogical thought processes, the question remains whether God provides anyone excuse even though He might have in times past. Everyone is made in the image of God and is expected to display His attributes, including sound reasoning accordingly especially since Jesus has revealed the power of the kingdom by the driving out of demons by the finger of God (Luke 11:20).
 
Sep 25, 2023
892
77
28
Washington State
Early on, you had provided excuse for your logical processes stemming from autism. But even if society tends to provide excuse due to illogical thought processes, the question remains whether God provides anyone excuse even though He might have in times past. Everyone is made in the image of God and is expected to display His attributes, including sound reasoning accordingly especially since Jesus has revealed the power of the kingdom by the driving out of demons by the finger of God (Luke 11:20).
I did not provide an excuse. Someone asked about disabilities and I named what other people think about me. I don't believe any of it.

Also, there is no expectation to reason as others do in God's eyes. God has given me a sound mind, proven by the ways that I have been able to minister to others, even when people don't understand the reason. If I have a demon or an evil spirit, it is not of my doing.
 

williamjordan

Senior Member
Feb 18, 2015
516
126
43
Patronizing the Son is what the rich young ruler did to warrant the response from Jesus, "why do you call me good?"

Jesus used the word 'megas' (vast) for great here, where John 1:30 used the word "emprosthen" (higher rank) for the same English word.
Folks who bring up Jn. 14:28 do not even realize the pickle they get themselves into, and forget the perspective they are supposed to be interacting with.

Jn. 14 is apart of a discourse that begins back in Jn. 13. And beginning in Jn. 13 (through Jn. 17), Jesus draws on themes which allude back to Jn. 1:1. You can read more about those connections here: Post #313

For whatever reason people tend to lose sight of this, especially in light of Jn. 1:14, where the Word becomes flesh. This is significant, because as Ps. 22:10 stipulates,

On you I was cast from the womb.
From my mother’s belly you have been my God.
There is a bit of irony in the fact that “the Word of the LORD” can say, “Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh; is anything too difficult for Me?” (Jer. 32:26-27) and yet, become flesh (Jn. 1:1–14).

Not to mention all the other things going on in Jn. 14, like prayer to Jesus (“If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it,” Jn. 14:14), and the fact that the same term used in Jn. 14:28 (“greater”) is also used in Jn. 14:12, where it carries a nuance of “greater” in terms of quantity, not quality or authority.

So there's a lot going on in the ensuing narrative that people just have to ignore.
 
Sep 25, 2023
892
77
28
Washington State
Folks who bring up Jn. 14:28 do not even realize the pickle they get themselves into, and forget the perspective they are supposed to be interacting with.

Jn. 14 is apart of a discourse that begins back in Jn. 13. And beginning in Jn. 13 (through Jn. 17), Jesus draws on themes which allude back to Jn. 1:1. You can read more about those connections here: Post #313

For whatever reason people tend to lose sight of this, especially in light of Jn. 1:14, where the Word becomes flesh. This is significant, because as Ps. 22:10 stipulates,



There is a bit of irony in the fact that “the Word of the LORD” can say, “Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh; is anything too difficult for Me?” (Jer. 32:26-27) and yet, become flesh (Jn. 1:1–14).

Not to mention all the other things going on in Jn. 14, like prayer to Jesus (“If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it,” Jn. 14:14), and the fact that the same term used in Jn. 14:28 (“greater”) is also used in Jn. 14:12, where it carries a nuance of “greater” in terms of quantity, not quality or authority.

So there's a lot going on in the ensuing narrative that people just have to ignore.
Why do you believe that people have to ignore something?

Also, I need clarity regarding what you wrote with the following. What do you mean here?

You wrote, "There is a bit of irony in the fact that “the Word of the LORD” can say, “Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh; is anything too difficult for Me?” (Jer. 32:26-27) and yet, become flesh (Jn. 1:1–14)."
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,163
2,177
113
I did not provide an excuse. Someone asked about disabilities and I named what other people think about me. I don't believe any of it.

Also, there is no expectation to reason as others do in God's eyes. God has given me a sound mind, proven by the ways that I have been able to minister to others, even when people don't understand the reason. If I have a demon or an evil spirit, it is not of my doing.
The demoniac knew enough to fall at the feet of Jesus for deliverance from all of his demons.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,163
2,177
113
Folks who bring up Jn. 14:28 do not even realize the pickle they get themselves into, and forget the perspective they are supposed to be interacting with.

Jn. 14 is apart of a discourse that begins back in Jn. 13. And beginning in Jn. 13 (through Jn. 17), Jesus draws on themes which allude back to Jn. 1:1. You can read more about those connections here: Post #313

For whatever reason people tend to lose sight of this, especially in light of Jn. 1:14, where the Word becomes flesh. This is significant, because as Ps. 22:10 stipulates,



There is a bit of irony in the fact that “the Word of the LORD” can say, “Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh; is anything too difficult for Me?” (Jer. 32:26-27) and yet, become flesh (Jn. 1:1–14).

Not to mention all the other things going on in Jn. 14, like prayer to Jesus (“If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it,” Jn. 14:14), and the fact that the same term used in Jn. 14:28 (“greater”) is also used in Jn. 14:12, where it carries a nuance of “greater” in terms of quantity, not quality or authority.

So there's a lot going on in the ensuing narrative that people just have to ignore.
"Disembodied theology" comes to mind as an apropos terminology for this approach.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,163
2,177
113
I am thinking of a song with those words, and I wrote a song like this once as well.
If your hesitance to call Jesus God stems from the fear of offending God, think upon the alternative if indeed Jesus is God.
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,163
2,177
113
I have said Jesus is God before but Jesus said "I am the Son of God". So I feel like I am rebuked by Jesus.
He makes a distinction of the person of The Son and that of The Father, as He does with the Holy Spirit. They is God.
 

williamjordan

Senior Member
Feb 18, 2015
516
126
43
Why do you believe that people have to ignore something?

Also, I need clarity regarding what you wrote with the following. What do you mean here?

You wrote, "There is a bit of irony in the fact that “the Word of the LORD” can say, “Behold, I am the Lord, the God of all flesh; is anything too difficult for Me?” (Jer. 32:26-27) and yet, become flesh (Jn. 1:1–14)."
I didn't intend to target you (per se), but simply pointing out that Jn. 14:28 is probably the most often cited (and missapplied) text against Trinitarianism. And in most instances, it is cited without recognition of all the other little nuances.

When I cited Jer. 32, I was drawing on the fact that John's prologue speaks of the Word becoming flesh, the very thing that Jeremiah says “the Word” is “God of” (“God of all flesh”).

I am not necessarily suggesting that this mystical figure (i.e., “the Word”) is always portrayed in the OT as a person, but there are instances where this does seem to be the case, and it certainly doesn't stop John from drawing upon this theme throughout his Gospel.

Throughout the OT, “the Word of the LORD” is uniquely associated with YHWH. Jeremiah 1:4-9 portrays this figure as a true visible manifestation of God; hence,

‘Now the Word of the Lord came to me saying,

“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
And before you were born I consecrated you;
I have appointed you a prophet to the nations.”
Then I said, “Alas, Lord God!
Behold, I do not know how to speak,
Because I am a youth.”
But the Lord said to me,
“Do not say, ‘I am a youth,’
Because everywhere I send you, you shall go,
And all that I command you, you shall speak.
“Do not be afraid of them,
For I am with you to deliver you,” declares the Lord.

Then the Lord stretched out His hand and touched my mouth... .’
That this is a true visionary experience is brought out by v. 9 (“Then the Lord stretched out His hand and touched my mouth”). The Word is referred to as the one who “formed you in the womb,” and is even referred to as YHWH in v. 6. Elsewhere in Jeremiah (18:5–6), the Word is identified as “the Potter,” and in 32:26-27 is referred to as, “the Lord, the God of all flesh.” In another example (1 Samuel 3:7-9, 21), “the Word of the LORD” is said to do the very thing that the prologue of John attributes to Jesus (John 1:18): expositing God to men.

That 1 Samuel 3 is also a visionary experience, is brought out by the words, “And the Lord appeared again at Shiloh, because the Lord revealed Himself to Samuel at Shiloh by the Word of the Lord.” This is precisely what we hear in John 1:18, “No one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten, Himself God, the one who is in the bosom of the Father—that one has made Him known.”

In other instances (namely, Jn. 8) there are additional allusions to this OT divine figure (“the Word”). For instance, Genesis 15:1 states,

“the Word of the LORD came to Abram in a vision” (Genesis 15:1)
Whatever this experience entailed, it certainly seems to be a visionary one, and is likely the subject of Jesus' words in Jn. 8:40, 8:58. Especially the part in Jn. 8:40 where it says,

“But now you are trying to kill me, a man who has told you the truth I heard from God; this Abraham did not do” (John 8:40)
At what point in time would Abraham even had seen Jesus to have the opportunity to do so?
 
Sep 25, 2023
892
77
28
Washington State
I didn't intend to target you (per se), but simply pointing out that Jn. 14:28 is probably the most often cited (and missapplied) text against Trinitarianism. And in most instances, it is cited without recognition of all the other little nuances.

When I cited Jer. 32, I was drawing on the fact that John's prologue speaks of the Word becoming flesh, the very thing that Jeremiah says “the Word” is “God of” (“God of all flesh”).

I am not necessarily suggesting that this mystical figure (i.e., “the Word”) is always portrayed in the OT as a person, but there are instances where this does seem to be the case, and it certainly doesn't stop John from drawing upon this theme throughout his Gospel.

Throughout the OT, “the Word of the LORD” is uniquely associated with YHWH. Jeremiah 1:4-9 portrays this figure as a true visible manifestation of God; hence,



That this is a true visionary experience is brought out by v. 9 (“Then the Lord stretched out His hand and touched my mouth”). The Word is referred to as the one who “formed you in the womb,” and is even referred to as YHWH in v. 6. Elsewhere in Jeremiah (18:5–6), the Word is identified as “the Potter,” and in 32:26-27 is referred to as, “the Lord, the God of all flesh.” In another example (1 Samuel 3:7-9, 21), “the Word of the LORD” is said to do the very thing that the prologue of John attributes to Jesus (John 1:18): expositing God to men.

That 1 Samuel 3 is also a visionary experience, is brought out by the words, “And the Lord appeared again at Shiloh, because the Lord revealed Himself to Samuel at Shiloh by the Word of the Lord.” This is precisely what we hear in John 1:18, “No one has seen God at any time; the only-begotten, Himself God, the one who is in the bosom of the Father—that one has made Him known.”

In other instances (namely, Jn. 8) there are additional allusions to this OT divine figure (“the Word”). For instance, Genesis 15:1 states,



Whatever this experience entailed, it certainly seems to be a visionary one, and is likely the subject of Jesus' words in Jn. 8:40, 8:58. Especially the part in Jn. 8:40 where it says,



At what point in time would Abraham even had seen Jesus to have the opportunity to do so?
I don't understand your question. I don't believe all of that. And I don't know what John 14:28 says.
 

williamjordan

Senior Member
Feb 18, 2015
516
126
43
I don't understand your question. I don't believe all of that. And I don't know what John 14:28 says.
It's not a question, per se. Rather, it's a response to your question, ended with a rhetorical question. Maybe AI was the right suggestion, and now you are overmalfunctioning: "Does not compute."
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,067
4,349
113