The Trinity

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mark54

Banned
#1,881
Jan 11, 2013
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#1,881
Re: You have nothing...

GraceBeUntoYou said:
Absolutely. I have already taken up that task on another thread, here. Allow me to say that I accept two interpretations of the text which you cite, the link only features one of those interpretations, the other is deeply intrenched in Trinitarian teachings of the Early Church.

Is there anything you would like to discuss over the plain words of John 1.1, John 1.18, John 20.28, 2 Peter 1.1, Titus 2.13, Hebrews 1.10, Romans 10.13, 1 Corinthians 10.9, Jude 1.5, Revelation 3.14?
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I have discussed the subject of 'Is Jesus 'God' too many times so stick nowadys to what really concerns me, and you mentioned in your post, what is required salvivic faith/belief unto salvation
Such belief I believe is plainly wirtten in scripture. I am most happy to discuss with you what salvific faith is neccessary unto salvation
I have given you a very plain verse of scripture as to what Christ says is neccessary belief. He tells us we must believe he is thye son of God, full stop
however, lets have a level playing field
If you can produce one verse of scriptue that states a person must believe Jesus is the one true God unto salvation i'll discuss it heartily, for i have given you a plain verse that states that is not the case

Now let me ask you something
Do you believe it is the fundamental responsibility of every minister to plainly and clearly tell their flock from the pulpit any salvational belief and the consequences of getting it wrong?
If you do, and you believe a person must accept Chrtist is God Himself unto salvation, will you take this opportunity to roundly condemn as unfit to preach any minister who refuses to plainly state from the pulpit that if a person believes Jesus IS THE Son of God, but not God Himself they cannot be saved with that belief, are therefore condemned and will go to hell
Thanks
 
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mark54

Banned
#1,882
Jan 11, 2013
2,256
17
0
#1,882
Re: You have nothing...

GraceBeUntoYou said:
Absolutely. I have already taken up that task on another thread, here. Allow me to say that I accept two interpretations of the text which you cite, the link only features one of those interpretations, the other is deeply intrenched in Trinitarian teachings of the Early Church.

Is there anything you would like to discuss over the plain words of John 1.1, John 1.18, John 20.28, 2 Peter 1.1, Titus 2.13, Hebrews 1.3, Hebrews 1.10, Romans 10.13, 1 Corinthians 10.9, Jude 1.5, Revelation 3.14, Colossians 2.9, or Philippians 2?
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With respect, you may take any understanding you wish of John 17:3
Jesus said eternal life was knowing the Father, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he sent
 
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GraceBeUntoYou

Guest
#1,883
#1,883
Re: You have nothing...

mark54 said:
I have discussed the subject of 'Is Jesus 'God' too many times so stick nowadys to what really concerns me, and you mentioned in your post, what is required salvivic faith/belief unto salvation
Such belief I believe is plainly wirtten in scripture. I am most happy to discuss with you what salvific faith is neccessary unto salvation
I have given you a very plain verse of scripture as to what Christ says is neccessary belief. He tells us we must believe he is thye son of God, full stop
however, lets have a level playing field
If you can produce one verse of scriptue that states a person must believe Jesus is the one true God unto salvation i'll discuss it heartily, for i have given you a plain verse that states that is not the case

Now let me ask you something
Do you believe it is the fundamental responsibility of every minister to plainly and clearly tell their flock from the pulpit any salvational belief and the consequences of getting it wrong?
If you do, and you believe a person must accept Chrtist is God Himself unto salvation, will you take this opportunity to roundly condemn as unfit to preach any minister who refuses to plainly state from the pulpit that if a person believes Jesus IS THE Son of God, but not God Himself they cannot be saved with that belief, are therefore condemned and will go to hell
Thanks
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Here's the problem, as Trinitarians, we believe that Christ is the Son of God, absolutely. We also believe, however, that the Son has the same ontological nature as the Father, and is in that sense, God (John 1.1, Hebrews 1.3, Colossians 2.9). We do not affirm that Christ is God to the exclusion of His Sonship. No, we affirm that Christ is both, the Son of God, and God by His inherent nature. Yes, I believe it is a ministers responsibility to clearly tell their flock from the pulpit any salvational belief as well as the consequences of getting it wrong. Anyone who teaches against what the inspired text of Scriptures proclaims concerning Christ is condemned... regardless of what the issue is, whether the virgin birth, the physical resurrection, the pre-existence of Christ, or Christ's divine identity as God.
 
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mark54

Banned
#1,884
Jan 11, 2013
2,256
17
0
#1,884
Re: You have nothing...

GraceBeUntoYou said:
Here's the problem, as Trinitarians, we believe that Christ is the Son of God, absolutely. We also believe, however, that the Son has the same ontological nature as the Father, and is in that sense, God (John 1.1, Hebrews 1.3, Colossians 2.9). We do not affirm that Christ is God to the exclusion of His Sonship. No, we affirm that Christ is both, the Son of God, and God by His inherent nature. Yes, I believe it is a ministers responsibility to clearly tell their flock from the pulpit any salvational belief as well as the consequences of getting it wrong. Anyone who teaches against what the inspired text of Scriptures proclaims concerning Christ is condemned... regardless of what the issue is, whether the virgin birth, the physical resurrection, the pre-existence of Christ, or Christ's divine identity as God.
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OK
Well if I understand you correctly you are saying a person must believe Christ is the son of God and God Himself unto salvation, one without the other is not enough. Bearing in mind what I have highlighted of your post
Will you roundly condemn as unfit to preach the Gosepl, any minister who wil not plainly state from the pulpit that in order for a person to inherit eternal life they MUST believe Christ is not only the Son of God but God Himaself also. A belief he is simply the Son of God and no more is insufficient and means a person cannot be saved with thatbelief and will therefore go to hell
 
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GraceBeUntoYou

Guest
#1,885
#1,885
Re: You have nothing...

mark54 said:
With respect, you may take any understanding you wish of John 17:3
Jesus said eternal life was knowing the Father, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he sent
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"To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1.1)
 
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mark54

Banned
#1,886
Jan 11, 2013
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#1,886
Re: You have nothing...

GraceBeUntoYou said:
"To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ" (2 Peter 1.1)
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easy to answer that, but then I let you sidetrack from the plain words of Christ AS TO WHAT ETERNAL LIFE DEPENDS ON which is the point of discussion
And just to repeat, Christ said eternal life is knowing the Father, THE ONLY TRUE GOD and Jesus Christ whom he has sent

Please give me a plain verse of scripture that contradicts that
 
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GraceBeUntoYou

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#1,887
#1,887
Re: You have nothing...

mark54 said:
OK
Well if I understand you correctly you are saying a person must believe Christ is the son of God and God Himself unto salvation, one without the other is not enough. Bearing in mind what I have highlighted of your post
Will you roundly condemn as unfit to preach the Gosepl, any minister who wil not plainly state from the pulpit that in order for a person to inherit eternal life they MUST believe Christ is not only the Son of God but God Himaself also. A belief he is simply the Son of God and no more is insufficient and means a person cannot be saved with thatbelief and will therefore go to hell
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That is, afterall, what Scripture proclaims.
 
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GraceBeUntoYou

Guest
#1,889
#1,889
Re: You have nothing...

mark54 said:
easy to answer that, but then I let you sidetrack from the plain words of Christ AS TO WHAT ETERNAL LIFE DEPENDS ON which is the point of discussion
And just to repeat, Christ said eternal life is knowing the Father, THE ONLY TRUE GOD and Jesus Christ whom he has sent

Please give me a plain verse of scripture that contradicts that
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I'd be interested in hearing your answer. I have already shown you my answer to John 17.3, and it in no way, not even the slightest bit, inpugns Christ's complete and total Deity.
 
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mark54

Banned
#1,890
Jan 11, 2013
2,256
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#1,890
You have just said that scripture proclaims a person must believe Jesus is the Son of God AND God Himself unto salvation, you have also stated the following:

'I believe it is a ministers responsibility to clearly tell their flock from the pulpit any salvational belief as well as the consequences of getting it wrong'

So bearing the above in mind, please plainly and forthrightly answer the question below



Will you roundly condemn as unfit to preach the Gosepl, any minister who wil not plainly state from the pulpit that in order for a person to inherit eternal life they MUST believe Christ is not only the Son of God but God Himself also. A belief he is simply the Son of God and no more is insufficient and means a person cannot be saved with tha tbelief and will therefore go to hell
 
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GraceBeUntoYou

Guest
#1,891
#1,891
Re: You have nothing...

mark54 said:
Is there a problem with plainly answering the question?
Please plainly answer the simple question asked of you
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Let me put it you this way. If I were present at the time the Athanasian Creed was put together, which reads,

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith. Which Faith except everyone do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the Catholic Faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity. Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is all One, the Glory Equal, the Majesty Co-Eternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father Uncreate, the Son Uncreate, and the Holy Ghost Uncreate. The Father Incomprehensible, the Son Incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost Incomprehensible. The Father Eternal, the Son Eternal, and the Holy Ghost Eternal and yet they are not Three Eternals but One Eternal. As also there are not Three Uncreated, nor Three Incomprehensibles, but One Uncreated, and One Uncomprehensible. So likewise the Father is Almighty, the Son Almighty, and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not Three Almighties but One Almighty.

So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not Three Gods, but One God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not Three Lords but One Lord. For, like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion to say, there be Three Gods or Three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father, and of the Son neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.

So there is One Father, not Three Fathers; one Son, not Three Sons; One Holy Ghost, not Three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after Other, None is greater or less than Another, but the whole Three Persons are Co-eternal together, and Co-equal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, must thus think of the Trinity.

Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting Salvation, that he also believe rightly the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess, that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man.

God, of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the substance of His mother, born into the world. Perfect God and Perfect Man, of a reasonable Soul and human Flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His Manhood. Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but One Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into Flesh, but by taking of the Manhood into God. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by Unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one Man, so God and Man is one Christ. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into Hell, rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into Heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire. This is the Catholic Faith, which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.
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My signature would be top of the list.
 
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mark54

Banned
#1,892
Jan 11, 2013
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#1,892
Re: You have nothing...

GraceBeUntoYou said:
I'd be interested in hearing your answer. I have already shown you my answer to John 17.3, and it in no way, not even the slightest bit, inpugns Christ's complete and total Deity.
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discussing salvific belief unto salvation/eternall ife
I chave prioduced a plain scripture concerning the point of discussion that states eternal life is klnowing the vFather, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent
Please prodice a scripture that plainly contradicts that SPECIFICALLY CONCERNING THE REQUIREMENT OF BELIEF UNTO ETERNAL LIFE
 
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mark54

Banned
#1,893
Jan 11, 2013
2,256
17
0
#1,893
Re: You have nothing...

GraceBeUntoYou said:
Let me put it you this way. If I were present at the time the Athanasian Creed was put together, which reads,



My signature would be top of the list.
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So you refuse to answer the very plainly put querstion forthrightly



Please do not expect me to reply to anymore questions of yours, if you do not have the courage to plainly answer my question
It is obvious why you will not plainly answer it
And I have to say, if you carried hearftfelt conviction over this subject, and not just wanting a theological discussion, you would plainly answer it
 
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mark54

Banned
#1,894
Jan 11, 2013
2,256
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0
#1,894
You have just said that scripture proclaims a person must believe Jesus is the Son of God AND God Himself unto salvation, you have also stated the following:

'I believe it is a ministers responsibility to clearly tell their flock from the pulpit any salvational belief as well as the consequences of getting it wrong'

So bearing the above in mind, please plainly and forthrightly answer the question below



Will you roundly condemn as unfit to preach the Gosepl, any minister who wil not plainly state from the pulpit that in order for a person to inherit eternal life they MUST believe Christ is not only the Son of God but God Himself also. A belief he is simply the Son of God and no more is insufficient and means a person cannot be saved with tha tbelief and will therefore go to hell


GRACEBEUNTOYOU
If at anytime you feel you can plainly answer the above I will continue discussion with you
If not, it appears to me you hold no deep convction of the faith from the heart, only the head
 
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GraceBeUntoYou

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#1,895
#1,895
Re: You have nothing...

mark54 said:
discussing salvific belief unto salvation/eternall ife
I chave prioduced a plain scripture concerning the point of discussion that states eternal life is klnowing the vFather, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent
Please prodice a scripture that plainly contradicts that SPECIFICALLY CONCERNING THE REQUIREMENT OF BELIEF UNTO ETERNAL LIFE
Click to expand...
While I cannot produce a passage that says word-for-word what you want it to say, "Unless you believe Christ is God, you cannot be saved," what I have done is cite something a bit more powerful. I have not only cited a passage which propounds upon the Deity of Christ (and very strongly so), but it also describes the faith of the author and his audience. Moreover, the author says that the faith was "received," or "obtained," and genuine faith comes from God (Romans 12.3; 2 Thessalonians 1.3; Philippians 1.29).
 
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mark54

Banned
#1,896
Jan 11, 2013
2,256
17
0
#1,896
Re: You have nothing...

GraceBeUntoYou said:
While I cannot produce a passage that says word-for-word what you want it to say, "Unless you believe Christ is God, you cannot be saved," what I have done is cite something a bit more powerful. I have not only cited a passage which propounds upon the Deity of Christ (and very strongly so), but it also describes the faith of the author and his audience. Moreover, the author says that the faith was "received," or "obtained," and genuine faith comes from God (Romans 12.3; 2 Thessalonians 1.3; Philippians 1.29).
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I would refer you to my previous post
 
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GraceBeUntoYou

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#1,897
#1,897
Re: You have nothing...

mark54 said:
So you refuse to answer the very plainly put querstion forthrightly



Please do not expect me to reply to anymore questions of yours, if you do not have the courage to plainly answer my question
It is obvious why you will not plainly answer it
And I have to say, if you carried hearftfelt conviction over this subject, and not just wanting a theological discussion, you would plainly answer it
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Stop deceiving yourself, the answer is there, I made it in a nice bold font.
 
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mark54

Banned
#1,898
Jan 11, 2013
2,256
17
0
#1,898
You have just said that scripture proclaims a person must believe Jesus is the Son of God AND God Himself unto salvation, you have also stated the following:

'I believe it is a ministers responsibility to clearly tell their flock from the pulpit any salvational belief as well as the consequences of getting it wrong'

So bearing the above in mind, please plainly and forthrightly answer the question below



Will you roundly condemn as unfit to preach the Gosepl, any minister who wil not plainly state from the pulpit that in order for a person to inherit eternal life they MUST believe Christ is not only the Son of God but God Himself also. A belief he is simply the Son of God and no more is insufficient and means a person cannot be saved with that belief and will therefore go to hell


GRACEBEUNTOYOU
If at anytime you feel you can plainly answer the above I will continue discussion with you
If not, it appears to me you hold no deep convction of the faith from the heart, only the head
 
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GraceBeUntoYou

Guest
#1,899
#1,899
Re: You have nothing...

mark54 said:
I would refer you to my previous post
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And I would refer you to my post prior to your previous post. The answer is really quite clear. While I do not condemn them, I would be one to say that if they do not adhere to what the Scriptures proclaim, that Christ is both, the Son of God, and God by nature, then they stand condemned.
 
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