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T
Making disciples does not give us license to separate Jesus as Lord from Jesus as Savior when presenting the gospel. He will be both or neither. Unbelievers should count the cost before they commit.
That said, everyone comes into the church with sin that the Holy Spirit will deal with in time, (as opposed to up front). In discipleship, we work with people to get rid of sin as sin comes up; we never hunt for sin (though it be lurking there). There is a conviction of sin, brought by the Holy Spirit - it is the opposite of accusation of sin which is brought by the devil. Nurturing a conviction of sin brings repentance and freedom, nurturing accusation of sin brings guilt and death. In discipleship, we must be careful to work from a position of inner conviction as opposed to outward accusation. There are some excellent examples of this in the discussion already.
Before Holy Spirit conviction, people do not even know that what is inside them is wrong - that is how these things are hidden and not brought up for awhile. Everyone has sin like this, flagrant or otherwise.
Evil society is not a cultural/historical change, but a cultural/historical constant. No one can do good works apart from the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit - men are not more evil today than they were one hundred years ago. We are totally depraved by nature. Sin at any given point in time may be more or less open and flagrant. Yet we deal with flagrant sin the same way we deal with sins of the heart - as they come up.
God demands that we maintain discipline in the church. Leaders do not have the option of allowing flagrant sin unchecked within the church. This puts a tension on leadership. Do they wait for Holy Spirit conviction, or do they move to purify the church? The course of least resistance is always to wait for Holy Spirit conviction. Yet the scriptures call for discipline on occasion. On which occasions? The formula is that there is no formula. We must be lead by the Holy Spirit on a case-by-case basis or we will be accusing the very people we would disciple, and enabling others to avoid Holy Spirit conviction to the detriment of the church. The original sin of our race was of our higher nature. Adam did not use the vegetation nor the animals to satisfy his sensual desires, but rather attempted to discern good from evil - without reference to the counsel that was available directly from God. Today, we are unable to discern good from evil without that counsel that is available directly from God.
I do not write this to instruct the readers as much as to put onto paper my own thoughts. I invite informed constructive criticism as I am thinking out loud here...
That said, everyone comes into the church with sin that the Holy Spirit will deal with in time, (as opposed to up front). In discipleship, we work with people to get rid of sin as sin comes up; we never hunt for sin (though it be lurking there). There is a conviction of sin, brought by the Holy Spirit - it is the opposite of accusation of sin which is brought by the devil. Nurturing a conviction of sin brings repentance and freedom, nurturing accusation of sin brings guilt and death. In discipleship, we must be careful to work from a position of inner conviction as opposed to outward accusation. There are some excellent examples of this in the discussion already.
Before Holy Spirit conviction, people do not even know that what is inside them is wrong - that is how these things are hidden and not brought up for awhile. Everyone has sin like this, flagrant or otherwise.
Evil society is not a cultural/historical change, but a cultural/historical constant. No one can do good works apart from the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit - men are not more evil today than they were one hundred years ago. We are totally depraved by nature. Sin at any given point in time may be more or less open and flagrant. Yet we deal with flagrant sin the same way we deal with sins of the heart - as they come up.
God demands that we maintain discipline in the church. Leaders do not have the option of allowing flagrant sin unchecked within the church. This puts a tension on leadership. Do they wait for Holy Spirit conviction, or do they move to purify the church? The course of least resistance is always to wait for Holy Spirit conviction. Yet the scriptures call for discipline on occasion. On which occasions? The formula is that there is no formula. We must be lead by the Holy Spirit on a case-by-case basis or we will be accusing the very people we would disciple, and enabling others to avoid Holy Spirit conviction to the detriment of the church. The original sin of our race was of our higher nature. Adam did not use the vegetation nor the animals to satisfy his sensual desires, but rather attempted to discern good from evil - without reference to the counsel that was available directly from God. Today, we are unable to discern good from evil without that counsel that is available directly from God.
I do not write this to instruct the readers as much as to put onto paper my own thoughts. I invite informed constructive criticism as I am thinking out loud here...
Question is, when and who decides something needs to be said to a new believer in Christ, or supposed to be in Christ, that they are living in sin. God is a God of balance and order.
A hypothetical for EG, say that couple in your church continued to live together, how long would you let that go on in your chuch? I'm sure you'd agree they are setting a bad example for the youth! In the church I currently attend, we had a couple just like this, after awhile one of the elders, perhaps talking it over with the other elders first (i'm not sure), said something to them...now they are no long a part of us. [however, I do believe this church I attend lacks the convicting messages about sinful living we all need to hear...which is one of the reasons I'm looking for a new local church home.].
A hypothetical for EG, say that couple in your church continued to live together, how long would you let that go on in your chuch? I'm sure you'd agree they are setting a bad example for the youth! In the church I currently attend, we had a couple just like this, after awhile one of the elders, perhaps talking it over with the other elders first (i'm not sure), said something to them...now they are no long a part of us. [however, I do believe this church I attend lacks the convicting messages about sinful living we all need to hear...which is one of the reasons I'm looking for a new local church home.].
E
Are you saying we should go Back to Law? Paul made it clear. the only aspect the law has on us is as an unbeliever, the law is a schoolmaster. once we have come to him and are born into his family. we no longer need the schoolmaster, it has done its job.
The problem with ritual and tradition is it becomes second nature, and we just go through the motions. God never intended it to be this way. The NT church as we see it is far from the church in Paul's day, it does not even come close. God wants a relationship with his family. When you meet with your family do you get together to do the same old ritual every time?
The problem with ritual and tradition is it becomes second nature, and we just go through the motions. God never intended it to be this way. The NT church as we see it is far from the church in Paul's day, it does not even come close. God wants a relationship with his family. When you meet with your family do you get together to do the same old ritual every time?
E
An unbeliever can't know the cost. Well, they can know the cost Jesus paid.
How can an unbeliever count the cost when they are not even able to have victory over sin? This makes no sense. Did Peter tell the 3000 souls who were saved on Pentecost they better "count the cost" or did he just give them the gospel. Jesus died because we could not pay for our own sin debt.
Agree. Thats why many remain babes. (say like the corinthians) they have to be fed milk before they can be fed meet. Discipleship involves all this. Jesus is our example. he taught them about his father, and he had a great friendship with them.. The conviction came as they learned more about who God really is..
My comment spoke more of the moral status of the society, Yes they were just as evil in Gods eyes, but morally, they had a better view. We did not have to deal with fornication or adultry, Unmarried live in relationships. And the other common sins we see today that people like to shove down our throats in CC
That is another problem in the church. Leaders and discipleship. If you have 4 leaders and 150 in the congregation. how can those 4 leaders properly disciple? they can't. A mature christian should be discipline a new or more immature christian on a weekly basis, ar at least by weekly. That is how we do it at our church.
And scripture is clear as to how the church should discipline. we should follow those guidelines.
How can an unbeliever count the cost when they are not even able to have victory over sin? This makes no sense. Did Peter tell the 3000 souls who were saved on Pentecost they better "count the cost" or did he just give them the gospel. Jesus died because we could not pay for our own sin debt.
Agree. Thats why many remain babes. (say like the corinthians) they have to be fed milk before they can be fed meet. Discipleship involves all this. Jesus is our example. he taught them about his father, and he had a great friendship with them.. The conviction came as they learned more about who God really is..
My comment spoke more of the moral status of the society, Yes they were just as evil in Gods eyes, but morally, they had a better view. We did not have to deal with fornication or adultry, Unmarried live in relationships. And the other common sins we see today that people like to shove down our throats in CC
That is another problem in the church. Leaders and discipleship. If you have 4 leaders and 150 in the congregation. how can those 4 leaders properly disciple? they can't. A mature christian should be discipline a new or more immature christian on a weekly basis, ar at least by weekly. That is how we do it at our church.
And scripture is clear as to how the church should discipline. we should follow those guidelines.
E
the question I have for you is why an elder had to do it? where was the discipler of these two new converts? did the church just allow them to come, without personal teaching and edification?
Again. Scripture has plain guildines on discipline, we should follow them. And who is to say how long? are they changing in other areas of their lives? if so. is this not some proof maybe they did have real faith and are saved. and who are we to limit the HS. There are many options. Marraige. One moves out, etc etc. But they have to know why first. And this may not happen in 1 week. or even 1 month. Not everyone learns the same way.
S
When a friend is living in sin, should we always confront them about it? I struggled with this because a friend of mine was having serious marital problems and gradually withdrew from me. I had a vivid dream about her being drunk and alone in a parking lot crying out for help. I awoke with my heart pounding and started praying for her. I did wrestle with what to do about that dream. Should I tell her? Well, my opportunity came when she showed up at my house and told me she filed for divorce, and also that she had been going out drinking with friends and hooking up with other guys. My heart broke. I told her of my dream and she started to cry. Then she revealed that another Christian friend had a similar dream. It spoke to her of the realness of God, and of His concern for her....all I could do was love her. To this day I don't know if I should have called her right away after my dream to find out what was going on...I held back because I had felt her pulling away because she knew I would not approve of her lifestyle (which she admitted later was true), so I didn't feel that she would be open to my words. Then she moved back to Texas, moved in with her new boyfriend, and ended up pregnant. Today they are married, going to church, attending a small group, and are both really seeking God in their lives. Should I have confronted her with her sin and told her that it was wrong to live with someone? It was wrong for her to cheat on her husband and divorce him, too. The thing is, through all of these things she has seen the hand of God in her life, and all I can do now is pray for her to learn...to be discipled in her new church, to draw closer to God. She can't undo the wrongs that have already been done. I honestly came so close to confronting her about her sin, but something held me back. Was it God or was it my own fear? I don't know. I think it's different when it's a close friend versus someone in the church who is living in open sin. We had a couple at our church who was living together. He was still married. They were coming every Sunday, and it was starting to make us uncomfortable. She was raised in a Christian home and her mother also attended our church, so we assumed that she knew that living with a married man was wrong. Our pastor and the elders were praying about what to do, and our pastor decided that he absolutely had to talk to them. So he did. And he said they sat there and listened and asked questions. And after that, they kept coming to church. We were all astounded, honestly. He was very blunt with them that they were living in a sinful relationship, and that if they wanted to live lives pleasing to God they were going to have to separate. Eventually the relationship broke up and they no longer attend the church. I think he has gotten back with his wife. So I definitely think that cases like this should be handled by the leaders of the church because they have been given that authority. Unless it is someone you are close to personally. In that case it might be easier for you to talk to them because you already have that relationship...then again, that can make it harder. Like someone said above, it has to be taken case by case and people need to be very careful that they are being directed by the Holy Spirit, because if you handle it wrong your words can be very destructive to a new believer and you could end up doing more harm than good. This is where it's so important for each of us to learn the voice of the Spirit. The more in tune we are with Him, the easier it is to know what to do and say. And I agree that all of us should have a role as mentors to the younger folks and new Christians under the leadership of the church. The key is relationships...building relationships and loving one another, supporting one another, and out of that feeling of acceptance and love people open up to the truth.
E
This is why I like personal discipleship. In this type of relationship we feel open about being able to confess our sins to each other, Knowing we will not get judged (it is the judgment which gets people to hold back confessing thier sin for fear) And yes, It should be a case by case basis
I have only seen two time where the person had to be brought in front of the church, In one case, the person confessed and changed, in the other, the person Got angry and left. In both cases, eventually their was true change and both have been strong members and leaders of the church for awhile now.
Most of the time, when people are confronted like this, one of two things happen. They leave or hide because of their sin (they can;t draw close to God because of thier sin, so the guilt causes them to stay away0 or they change long before the church leader or church as a whole needs to confront them.
I have only seen two time where the person had to be brought in front of the church, In one case, the person confessed and changed, in the other, the person Got angry and left. In both cases, eventually their was true change and both have been strong members and leaders of the church for awhile now.
Most of the time, when people are confronted like this, one of two things happen. They leave or hide because of their sin (they can;t draw close to God because of thier sin, so the guilt causes them to stay away0 or they change long before the church leader or church as a whole needs to confront them.
What Paul made clear was addressed to the needs of the times he wrote to. Large groups of people were obeying law as ritual, only, not as God had meant rituals to convey. The church of that day said that to become Christian, it was performing the rituals that was required. Both these errors had to be addressed.
We have expanded on Paul's corrections of these errors to say that God tells us not to listen to any of His instructions, it is law and the extremists say law is out. Some say Paul was talking against all of his own race, the Jews.
I am saying that we need to accept God as God, as God is all through scripture. When we do, there would be no question about "do the same old ritual every time". We could know the entire God, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. All the power, the glory, the wonder of it.
We have expanded on Paul's corrections of these errors to say that God tells us not to listen to any of His instructions, it is law and the extremists say law is out. Some say Paul was talking against all of his own race, the Jews.
I am saying that we need to accept God as God, as God is all through scripture. When we do, there would be no question about "do the same old ritual every time". We could know the entire God, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. All the power, the glory, the wonder of it.
i don't know about that kind of arrangement EG.
it sounds like it is effective.
what i do know is my own church:
it's small enough for one pastor to be the under-shepherd for the entire flock.
i have yet to discern anyone being 'a leader' of any kind....the elders are servants.
what i see is a pastor ordained to serve the congregation through the weekly service and laboring to minister to each person as an individual, as needed. providing them with passages in the scriptures; counselling concerning decision making in the Christian life, and so on. he is available 24/7 for birth, life and death.
really, there is no drama or chaos or thrashing at all in my church < at last!
people are at peace, there is unity and calm, and the struggles anyone may be going through are just understood to be there. whatever it may be. i sit at the back, and i see the others. all there for one reason - Jesus.
the home meetings; fellowship before or after services...i have yet, not one time to hear angst or wanderlust or anything of the sort. Confessional Lutheranism appears to be generational. i know this is disturbing for some people ('cold, dead orthodoxy'
)
this is extremely unlike the previous experiences with other assemblies i have attended.
there is never, at any time coming from the pulpit declarations against other demons, or other anything.
it just isn't there. no politics, Luther isn't talked about, no philosophy or cute stories.
i do know they had some kind of schism before i got there: and as tragic as it is, it appears to have happened ultimately because some folks felt there wasn't enough drama. now they're floating around, church-hopping and things are falling apart (i know this because the villages are small, and i kinda pay attention) - those families are divided.
all i can think of is they didn't know what they had...until they lost it....wish i coulda said DON'T GO THERE! done it!
i don't know if any have come back, since no one talks about anyone else's stuff.
re: Re: The un-equiped church and the problems it causes
maybe that's why there is such unity and calm in my church : (experience-driven-thrill) seekers think it's just dead old orthodoxy and don't test-drive it!! plus you have to confess yer not perfect. oh my....that takes care of that crew. they'd never survive the Law & Gospel from a Lutheran pulpit LOL
people there are lifers. that's where the discipling comes from i guess....it's for life.
raised in the scriptures from a child (timothy)
it sounds like it is effective.
what i do know is my own church:
it's small enough for one pastor to be the under-shepherd for the entire flock.
i have yet to discern anyone being 'a leader' of any kind....the elders are servants.
what i see is a pastor ordained to serve the congregation through the weekly service and laboring to minister to each person as an individual, as needed. providing them with passages in the scriptures; counselling concerning decision making in the Christian life, and so on. he is available 24/7 for birth, life and death.
really, there is no drama or chaos or thrashing at all in my church < at last!
people are at peace, there is unity and calm, and the struggles anyone may be going through are just understood to be there. whatever it may be. i sit at the back, and i see the others. all there for one reason - Jesus.
the home meetings; fellowship before or after services...i have yet, not one time to hear angst or wanderlust or anything of the sort. Confessional Lutheranism appears to be generational. i know this is disturbing for some people ('cold, dead orthodoxy'
)this is extremely unlike the previous experiences with other assemblies i have attended.
there is never, at any time coming from the pulpit declarations against other demons, or other anything.
it just isn't there. no politics, Luther isn't talked about, no philosophy or cute stories.
i do know they had some kind of schism before i got there: and as tragic as it is, it appears to have happened ultimately because some folks felt there wasn't enough drama. now they're floating around, church-hopping and things are falling apart (i know this because the villages are small, and i kinda pay attention) - those families are divided.
all i can think of is they didn't know what they had...until they lost it....wish i coulda said DON'T GO THERE! done it!
i don't know if any have come back, since no one talks about anyone else's stuff.
re: Re: The un-equiped church and the problems it causes
maybe that's why there is such unity and calm in my church : (experience-driven-thrill) seekers think it's just dead old orthodoxy and don't test-drive it!! plus you have to confess yer not perfect. oh my....that takes care of that crew. they'd never survive the Law & Gospel from a Lutheran pulpit LOL
people there are lifers. that's where the discipling comes from i guess....it's for life.
raised in the scriptures from a child (timothy)
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E
when it comes to salvation. there is no law. law can only be a schoolmaster. so tell me, why would we want to return to the very law which condemns us? As paul said, if we want to follow one part. we are required to follow every jott and tittle of the law.
what tradition can we do today which saves us?
Tradition is good. except when it get repetative, the same ole thing every week/ It loses its flavor. and has no effecdt. I know. i went to a traditional church for over 30 years. It did not help me grow. I have grown more in the last 6 years that I did in 30 years at a traditional church, why is this?
E
i don't know about that kind of arrangement EG.
it sounds like it is effective.
what i do know is my own church:
it's small enough for one pastor to be the under-shepherd for the entire flock.
i have yet to discern anyone being 'a leader' of any kind....the elders are servants.
what i see is a pastor ordained to serve the congregation through the weekly service and laboring to minister to each person as an individual, as needed. providing them with passages in the scriptures; counselling concerning decision making in the Christian life, and so on. he is available 24/7 for birth, life and death.
really, there is no drama or chaos or thrashing at all in my church < at last!
people are at peace, there is unity and calm, and the struggles anyone may be going through are just understood to be there. whatever it may be. i sit at the back, and i see the others. all there for one reason - Jesus.
the home meetings; fellowship before or after services...i have yet, not one time to hear angst or wanderlust or anything of the sort. Confessional Lutheranism appears to be generational. i know this is disturbing for some people ('cold, dead orthodoxy')
this is extremely unlike the previous experiences with other assemblies i have attended.
there is never, at any time coming from the pulpit declarations against other demons, or other anything.
it just isn't there. no politics, Luther isn't talked about, no philosophy or cute stories.
i do know they had some kind of schism before i got there: and as tragic as it is, it appears to have happened ultimately because some folks felt there wasn't enough drama. now they're floating around, church-hopping and things are falling apart (i know this because the villages are small, and i kinda pay attention) - those families are divided.
all i can think of is they didn't know what they had...until they lost it....wish i coulda said DON'T GO THERE! done it!
i don't know if any have come back, since no one talks about anyone else's stuff.
re: Re: The un-equiped church and the problems it causes
maybe that's why there is such unity and calm in my church : (experience-driven-thrill) seekers think it's just dead old orthodoxy and don't test-drive it!! plus you have to confess yer not perfect. oh my....that takes care of that crew. they'd never survive the Law & Gospel from a Lutheran pulpit LOL
people there are lifers. that's where the discipling comes from i guess....it's for life.
raised in the scriptures from a child (timothy)
it sounds like it is effective.
what i do know is my own church:
it's small enough for one pastor to be the under-shepherd for the entire flock.
i have yet to discern anyone being 'a leader' of any kind....the elders are servants.
what i see is a pastor ordained to serve the congregation through the weekly service and laboring to minister to each person as an individual, as needed. providing them with passages in the scriptures; counselling concerning decision making in the Christian life, and so on. he is available 24/7 for birth, life and death.
really, there is no drama or chaos or thrashing at all in my church < at last!
people are at peace, there is unity and calm, and the struggles anyone may be going through are just understood to be there. whatever it may be. i sit at the back, and i see the others. all there for one reason - Jesus.
the home meetings; fellowship before or after services...i have yet, not one time to hear angst or wanderlust or anything of the sort. Confessional Lutheranism appears to be generational. i know this is disturbing for some people ('cold, dead orthodoxy'
)this is extremely unlike the previous experiences with other assemblies i have attended.
there is never, at any time coming from the pulpit declarations against other demons, or other anything.
it just isn't there. no politics, Luther isn't talked about, no philosophy or cute stories.
i do know they had some kind of schism before i got there: and as tragic as it is, it appears to have happened ultimately because some folks felt there wasn't enough drama. now they're floating around, church-hopping and things are falling apart (i know this because the villages are small, and i kinda pay attention) - those families are divided.
all i can think of is they didn't know what they had...until they lost it....wish i coulda said DON'T GO THERE! done it!
i don't know if any have come back, since no one talks about anyone else's stuff.
re: Re: The un-equiped church and the problems it causes
maybe that's why there is such unity and calm in my church : (experience-driven-thrill) seekers think it's just dead old orthodoxy and don't test-drive it!! plus you have to confess yer not perfect. oh my....that takes care of that crew. they'd never survive the Law & Gospel from a Lutheran pulpit LOL
people there are lifers. that's where the discipling comes from i guess....it's for life.
raised in the scriptures from a child (timothy)
we have over 3000 members of our community. there is not one "pastor" but many elders, all in equal unity of the leaders of the church. We have three building in which everyone can go to what we call a "central teaching" or what you would call Sunday Service. out of them there is at least ten meeting a week for adults. They also have a college group..
The churches focus is him groups. A group of up to 30 people meeting weekly in a home each home group has 4 leaders, and at least one or two (training) leaders. Each leader is given a group to disciple in "cell groups" which are small men or women groups, where we meet weekly to have bible study, Confess our sins to each other, and have great prayer time. We also have one on one discipleship with someone who needs this, or new believers.
Our home group consists of getting together (like tonight) we first eat dinner (usually pot luck) then have about a 40 minute bible study with one of the leaders teaching, we go book to book. not topical. then discussion time, Then when we are finished, we have dessert. and hang out till whenever..
A real FAMILY atmosphere.
we also, when we get to big for the home, split one group into two groups. and our goal is to grow those groups (that's why we always have training leaders)
as for CT. we go to church A band plays about 3 great songs, we have a bible study, then we usually go out to lunch as a group...
This is exactly what I am talking about when I plead for knowing God in His entirety! "There is no law" "Schoolmaster" "the law condemns us" "tradition is repetative". The bits and pieces of God that needs to be made whole.
Yes, the dead church did not help you grow! If you are growing now it is because you have more of God in your life. You are acting out your knowledge of God. You could know more, yet, and grow more.
Yes, the dead church did not help you grow! If you are growing now it is because you have more of God in your life. You are acting out your knowledge of God. You could know more, yet, and grow more.
A
I don't think that's true. there were sinful people in older generations. the difference is that people are now more open and accepting of sin.
I don't there there was ever a time in history when the church did not have to deal with sinful people.
I do think there is a problem with discipleship in today's churches because people are unwilling to spend hours reading or discussing the Bible with new believers. there is so much distraction and entertainment that most people don't even pray before meals much less read their Bibles with their family any more.
People used to disciple and mentor others in the church. nowadays they expect the pastor to do it all. instead of being a body of christ it becomes a bunch of babes who throw up their milk, demand candy and cliff notes.
there were murderers and adulterers in the church, they were just hypocrites and better able to hide it.
Redtent...
Judaism is an acting out g-d religion.
it is precisely those rituals which are done away with.
they are shadows.
casting bread on waters, building booths...don't you know all that is fulfilled and amen in Jesus Christ?
if you enjoy them and they help you personally, that's fine.
but i wonder at what seems to your own division of the scriptures - you seem to be hinting that Christianity does not understand the Plan of God.
or that we somehow have left the Father out of the picture (?).
i'm not sure what you're getting at.
Judaism is an acting out g-d religion.
it is precisely those rituals which are done away with.
they are shadows.
casting bread on waters, building booths...don't you know all that is fulfilled and amen in Jesus Christ?
if you enjoy them and they help you personally, that's fine.
but i wonder at what seems to your own division of the scriptures - you seem to be hinting that Christianity does not understand the Plan of God.
or that we somehow have left the Father out of the picture (?).
i'm not sure what you're getting at.
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