The words of "others"

[Angela53510]

Originally Posted by convallaria

Yes amen, I too think it is obvious! Some seem to be relentless with the attacking and cannot let go, even though the environment is completely spoiled for everybody. Also it doesn't take too many braincells to figure out the nice humble people from the arrogant ones who just want everyone to listen to them - when they should be listening to God.

When I was saved, I had never read the Bible, so all I knew was what the Holy Spirit was telling me. I sure made up for lost time though and it was amazingly wonderful to me that the Lord would speak so personally and specifically to me through His word. I am so glad He didn't require me to be biblically perfect before I was saved, because it could never have happened. All the drudgery of study without the Holy Spirit has been spared me, thank the Lord, now it is part of the wonderful substance of my relationship with Him.

You know what, I think it makes people angry when they see we have all we need through the Holy Spirit without having worked for any of it. It is like they want to tell us we are immature and unlearned because THEY have put the hours in to understand everything and THEY are therefore the ones who DESERVE to be teachers. LOL!!!

Last time I looked, salvation is not of WORKS (lest any man should boast...AHEM!!!) but by grace through faith. What we have received, why would we boast when it wasn't ours in the first place to boast in?

Last time I looked, salvation is not of WORKS (lest any man should boast...AHEM!!!) but by grace through faith. What we have received, why would we boast when it wasn't ours in the first place to boast in?

Well, since you obviously admit to not knowing the Bible very well. And since you never post the Bible, another sure sign of ignorance I will let you know a few things that maybe you have not encountered in the Word, since you seem to be stuck off in the experiential, anything goes land.

"Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word" 2 Tim. 2:15

"16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,17 that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work." 2 Tim. 3:16-17

So the Bible is our standard, our guide and God expects us to know it and follow it. The problem with thinking that your personal experiences are more important than God's Word, is then there is no objective standard to judge and discern right and wrong. That is how the Word Faith got going, and how the excesses of the charismatic revivals became chaotic wild and scary free-for- alls. Quite simply, God is not the author of these Dionysian excesses.

"For God is not a God of confusion but of peace." 1 Cor. 14:33

I am so glad that I have both the Word of God to refer to, and the Holy Spirit leading and guiding my life. Because as some of you Pentecostal/charismatic types just don't seem to get, you cannot be a Christian without the Holy Spirit.

"9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you." Romans 8:9-11

Sadly, I have to wonder if the fruits are there in some of your lives who claim to be given totally all the knowledge you will ever need through just some kind of imparted wisdom supposedly from the Holy Spirit. Because it seems there is a lack of love, paranoia, black and white thinking, in this thread and others, and extreme defensiveness where none is needed.

And I do wonder if these so-called "spirit" led people have missed one of Jesus most important final words before he went to the cross.

"Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ Matt 25:34-40

So have you visited the sick, the elderly, those in prison? Have your fed the hungry, given water to the thirsty, or clothed a naked person? These are not works, but the fruit which is born when the Holy Spirit is in your heart and life. Not jumping up and down, rolling in the aisles, babbling nonsense and edifying yourself, instead of glorifying God.

Really, it all comes back to this ignorant arrogance, and thinking that you are some kind of special elite, because you dance in the aisles and feel shivers down your spine. This could be demonic in some cases. But ALL believers have the gift of the Holy Spirit when they are saved, that is the gospel truth.

"16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you." John 14:16-17

The word Helper, above is the παράκλητον or paraklatos. That is the Comforter, the Encourager or the Advocate. It is the promise of Jesus to send the Holy Spirit to ALL believers when he ascended into heaven. I am so glad I have both the Holy Spirit and the Word of God to guide and lead me in all truth.

Since Stephen63 delivered a low blow by cutting up my post (meaning that it is totally out of context) and then addressing it, I am reposting here, and explaining where I got my information from.

I did NOT call convallaria ignorant. I said NOT KNOWING the Bible is "a sure sign of ignorance." However, her constant lack of posting the Word of God to support her experiences and the following statement, saying those who do not have this supposed "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" are taught directly by the Holy Spirit and therefore do NOT have to put the time into studying like the rest of us second class Christians do in the following statement, is what I based my knowledge of her lack of Bible knowledge.

"You know what, I think it makes people angry when they see we have all we need through the Holy Spirit without having worked for any of it. It is like they want to tell us we are immature and unlearned because THEY have put the hours in to understand everything and THEY are therefore the ones who DESERVE to be teachers. LOL!!!

"They have put in hours to understand everything." Logically it follows that if "they," (meaning the lower class Christians) have to put in time studying the Bible, then obviously, these first class citizens to not have to spend the time reading the Bible. I did say that:

1. Not ever using Scripture
2. Not putting in the time to study the Bible

Amounts to ignorance. For ANYONE! Certainly not just charismatics. I know some very Biblically educated charismatics, but then, they have taken the time to study the Word of God. Gordan Fee is a world renowned biblical scholar, and I very much respect his writings and teachings, and we used some of his texts in Baptiist Seminary. Oh yes - he is a Pentecostal, but doesn't seem to see people without tongues as second class Christians. Amazing how someone that educatied can be so humble.

"Gordon Donald Fee is an American-Canadian Christian theologian and an ordained minister of the Assemblies of God. He currently serves as Professor Emeritus of New Testament Studies at Regent College in Vancouver, Canada. Wikipedia"

Stephen also removed all the Scripture from my above post. Really, the entire post is about Scripture. Not about personalities.

I do admit to addressing Convallaria in the beginning, although I really was posting in general terms. I never actually used her name. But I never imagined that
someone would interpret my post as a personal attack. For that, I do apologize, especially to convallaria, and to anyone else who was mislead by my error in the way I posted.

Finally, it is not true that ALL pentecostals/ charismatics believe that everyone who is saved has the Holy Spirit. There are people who do not believe that, and have posted in this forum.
To say nothing of the basic discussion that God gives us EVERYTHING we need at salvation to grow in character and into the image of Christ when we are saved.

"And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit."
2 Cor. 3:18

As far as the rest of Stephen's concerns in my post, I seem to have forgotten most of them. So think what you will. I do have the right in a Bible forum to present my theology with regards to pneumatology without being personally attacked, as long as I support my beliefs with the Word of God, Sadly, this topic keeps degenerating into personal attackes, and absolutely no discussion of the OP, to say nothing of the fact that experiences and opnions are being used instead of sticking to the Bible as our guide.