There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity

[faroukfarouk]

The trinity is what the bible teaches. God the father is not God the Son is not God the holy spirit but all three are the same one God. It is just like water. Water is one but it coexists as three distinct phases which are solid, liquid, and gas but it is still water even though solid is not liquid and is not gas but all three are water.

The trinity is proven in many places in the bible. Examples would be when Jesus prayed to his father up in heaven after he was nailed to the cross, "Please forgive those who they not know what they have done." If the trinity did not exist, then Jesus would not be praying and asking his father to forgive them as if he could just do it himself and would of been praying only to himself.

Also, Jesus said that nobody can come to my father except through me. If there is no trinity, and since Jesus is God, then there would be no need to have a mediator but Jesus who is the son of God who is God is the redeemer and he is the mediator between us and God the father. The truth is the father in heaven is the creator (The bible never did it say that Jesus himself created the heavens and earth and all of us. God the father did.) God the son who is Jesus is God and man who is God manifested in the flesh is the redeemer who has reconciled us to God the father when he died on the cross for our sins.

Interestingly, John 1.3 says of the Lord Jesus, 'without Him was not anything made that was made'.

 

[Bowman]

Greetings again Bowman...I appreciate your response and I have quoted only your conclusions. I can understand to some extent how you reach these conclusions, but I find them difficult to accept.

The scriptures that I referenced are very explicit, and there is absolutely no room for doubt.

I can understand that this has you deeply troubled - hence, you skipped addressing them, entirely.

My understanding is that the angels spoke and acted on God's behalf.

Malek Yahweh speaks AS Yahweh because He IS Yahweh.

Malek Yahweh even swears by Himself, as there is nothing greater to swear by.

You really need to study your scriptures...

To actually claim that “The messenger of The Lord is God” is to me really stretching the imagination.

This IS what scriptures tells us.

If you disagree, then provide your exegesis to the contrary.

Good luck...

You have slightly modified your earlier expression “Malek Yahweh IS Yahweh”, that is The Messenger of Yahweh is Yahweh.

There has been no change.

If the Messenger is a Messenger, then he is not the one who sends the message.

And...?

Out of this slight confusion you seem to introduce the 2nd Person of the Trinity, and even go so far as to say that this 2nd person appeared in Moses’ or Abraham’s time in the flesh. I find no scriptural support for such a concept.

The Son was known as Malek Yahweh, Yahweh, The Glory, El Shaddai, The Word of Yahweh, etc, etc., in the OT.

We do have the appearance of three “men” to Abraham, and one of these three bears the Name Yahweh, but this is again the Name Bearing Angel or Messenger speaking and acting on Yahweh, God the Father’s behalf.

The context of your assertion informs the reader that these three 'men' were each Yahweh.

We can pursue this in more detail if you want...however, you seem more bent on providing us with your scripturally unreferenced opinion in lieu of exegesis...

 

[ThomistColin]

The scriptures that I referenced are very explicit, and there is absolutely no room for doubt.

I can understand that this has you deeply troubled - hence, you skipped addressing them, entirely.







Malek Yahweh speaks AS Yahweh because He IS Yahweh.

Malek Yahweh even swears by Himself, as there is nothing greater to swear by.

You really need to study your scriptures...









This IS what scriptures tells us.

If you disagree, then provide your exegesis to the contrary.

Good luck...






There has been no change.








And...?








The Son was known as Malek Yahweh, Yahweh, The Glory, El Shaddai, The Word of Yahweh, etc, etc., in the OT.






The context of your assertion informs the reader that these three 'men' were each Yahweh.

We can pursue this in more detail if you want...however, you seem more bent on providing us with your scripturally unreferenced opinion in lieu of exegesis...

It was St. Gabriel who spoke to Mary. However, it was God's message that was given. Malekh Elohim is not God, but is the carrier of God's words to mankind. Jews have taught this for millennia. It was an angel that stayed the hand of Abraham, as was it an angel who spoke to the shepherds and Mary. God uses His creations as His messengers, to quote Christ in the Gospel of John,"As my Father sent me into the world, so I now send you." If we are bearers of God's message to our fellow man, so to will the lesser, speaking in the position as God's children and Bride, creations bring His messages to His creation.

 

[Bowman]

It was St. Gabriel who spoke to Mary. However, it was God's message that was given.

As stated in the narrative.

Gabriel does NOT bear the Name of God....thus, he is NOT God.

Malekh Elohim is not God, but is the carrier of God's words to mankind.

Malek Yahweh, Malek Elohim, is indeed God.

No mere angel bears the Name of God.

Jews have taught this for millennia.

No.

The Jews that knew their scriptures immediately understood that Jesus was God in the flesh because He had already come in the flesh numerous times in their Tanak, and they became Christians.

The ones still in denial are called Jews to this very day...

It was an angel that stayed the hand of Abraham, as was it an angel who spoke to the shepherds and Mary.

No.

God uses His creations as His messengers, to quote Christ in the Gospel of John,"As my Father sent me into the world, so I now send you." If we are bearers of God's message to our fellow man, so to will the lesser, speaking in the position as God's children and Bride, creations bring His messages to His creation.

Malek Yahweh was not created.

 

[Bowman]

I suggest that you need to re-examine your conclusions on the portion quoted, as the Name of God, Yahweh is applied in the very reference that you allude to. But contrary to what you state, it is Yahweh who is seated, and He invites David’s Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ to sit at His right hand. Thus in this context, Jesus is not Yahweh, but it is God the Father who is Yahweh.
Psalm 110:1 (KJV): The LORD (Yahweh) said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Kind regards
Trevor

But the Pharisees having been gathered, Jesus questioned them, saying, What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is He? They say to Him, David's. He said to them, Then how does David in Spiritcall Him Lord, saying, ‘The Lord said to my Lord, Sit off My right until I should put Your hostile ones as a footstool for Your feet?’ Then if David calls Him Lord, how is He his son? And no one was able to answer Him a word, nor did anyone dare from that day to question Him anymore. (Matt 22.41 – 46)



Compare to...


A declaration of Yahweh to my Master: Sit at My right hand, until I place Your enemies as Your footstool. Yahweh shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion to rule in the midst of Your enemies. Your people shall have willingness in the day of Your might; in the majesties of holiness; from the womb of the dawn, to You is the dew of Your youth. Yahweh has sworn and will not repent: You are a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek. The Master at Your right hand shatters kings in the day of His anger. He shall judge among the nations; He shall fill with dead bodies; He shall shatter heads over much land. He shall drink out of the torrent on the way; therefore, He shall lift up the head. (Psalm 110.1 - 7)


Psalm 110 distinguishes between God The Father and God The Son, who was David’s Master (Adonee). That ‘Adonee’ is divine is provided by the fact that The Son will be a priest forever.


Jesus’ reference to Psalm 110 further distinguishes God The Spirit from God The Father and God The Son.

 

[Kerry]

If you can read the bible and not see the Trinity, then you have been deceived.

 

[faroukfarouk]

The end of Matthew 28, John's Gospel, especially chapters 13 thru 17, Romans 8, John's First Epistle, etc.: there is so much Biblical witness to the truth of God in Three Persons.

 

[Bowman]

David in Psalm 8 separates Yahweh from Elohim when he speaks of the creation of man, and in prospect in the creation of Jesus.
Kind regards
Trevor

The unitarian mindset cannot distinguish between Jesus’ deity and His humanity.

You will not find a Biblical verse which informs the reader that Jesus’ deity was ever created. However, you will find verses which tell us that His humanity was created.

Here is a classic Biblical example which mandates that Jesus’ divinity was not of the created order…



λεγοντες φωνη μεγαληαξιον εστιν τοαρνιον το εσφαγμενονλαβειν την δυναμιν και πλουτον και σοφιανκαι ισχυν και τιμην και δοξαν και ευλογιανκαι παν κτισμα ο εν τω ουρανω και επι της γηςκαι υποκατω της γηςκαι επι της θαλασσης [εστιν]και τα εν αυτοις παντα ηκουσα λεγοντας τωκαθημενω επι του θρονου και τω αρνιω η ευλογια και η τιμη και η δοξα και το κρατος εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων


Saying with a great voice, Worthy is the Lamb having been slain to receive the power and riches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing. And every created thing in Heaven, and upon the earth, and underneath the earth, and upon the sea, and the things in all of them, I heard saying: To Him sitting on the throne, and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the power forever and ever. Rev 5.12 - 13



These verses clearly show the separation between created things ‘ktisma’ and Jesus’ divinity.

All ‘pan’ created things ‘ktisma’ in Heaven, on earth, under the earth, and upon the sea, and all things in them – thus, all created things in God’s creation, are shown to worship Jesus as God.

Clearly, Jesus is not part of any creation here, as this verse imparts to the reader that Jesus is divine – He is to be worshiped by the creation.

Jesus is to be worshiped as the ‘One’ upon the Throne.

But, who is the ‘One’ upon the Throne?

Revelation tells us that The Father sits upon the Throne (Rev 3.21); that Jesus sits upon the Throne (Rev 3.21; 7.17; 22.1 - 3), & that Theos sits upon the Throne (Rev 7.10 – 11; 7.15; 12.5; 14.5; 19.4; 22.1 - 3).

This is the Trinity.

Jesus is worshiped as the ‘One’ Triune God upon the Throne.

 

[TrevorL]

Re: There is One God the Father, Jesus is the Son of God

Greetings homwardbound, saved1975, faroukfarouk, shyness, Bowman and others,

I was interested in your Post #2036, but not sure if I can agree with all that you say. You quote a few of my comments that I stated concerning Psalm 110:1, but I am not sure if what you stated is in explanation of this verse. In your list of verses in Post #2038 are these in support of the Trinity? A few brief comments: when considering John 10:30, in my opinion one verse that helps to understand John 10:30 and disproves the view adopted by Trinitarians on this verse is John 17:21, and you have also quoted this verse. Jesus also fully explains John 10:30 in his answer in John 10:32-36. You have also quoted 1 John 5:7 and most modern translations exclude this verse and most commentators state that this verse is spurious.

You have to put "Elohim" in it's right context,
And in the context of Gen 1, & v26, Elohim means God The Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
Angels, rulers gods and judges, Never created anything.

I appreciate your response and you are welcome to reaffirm your beliefs. I believe that God the Father is the Creator, but he invited the angels to cooperate, and this is my explanation of the “us” and “our” of Genesis 1:26, and Psalm 8:5 supports this view. It is said of Caesar that before he marched on Rome he stated “I saw, I stooped, I conquered”. Julius Caesar did conquer, but he used his army to effect the conquest. We also speak of a building being designed and built by a particular person, but he uses hundreds of other people to bring the project to completion. God the Father, Yahweh is the Creator and Psalm 8 verifies this fact. Compare also Matthew 11:25-27 which is Jesus’ summary and adaptation of Psalm 8.

John 1: 1--14, shows that Jesus is the word, And the word, [Jesus] is God.

Interestingly, John 1.3 says of the Lord Jesus, 'without Him was not anything made that was made'.

Concerning “The Word” before the birth of Jesus have you ever considered the following:
Psalm 33:6 (KJV): By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
Isaiah 55:10-11 (KJV): 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

I appreciate your Post #2040 Shyness, but most of the things that you say, in my opinion, disprove the Trinity.

I appreciate your response Bowman, but my view of most of the passages that we have discussed is different.

You really need to study your scriptures...

I read the Scriptures differently to your assessment. The Angels speak and act on Yahweh’s behalf.

The context of your assertion informs the reader that these three 'men' were each Yahweh.
We can pursue this in more detail if you want...however, you seem more bent on providing us with your scripturally unreferenced opinion in lieu of exegesis...

I would be interested in your explanation here. I will briefly give my understanding. The three “men” were angels sent by God, and one of these three is stated to be “Yahweh”, indicating to me that he was the spokesman for the three, but especially given the authority to speak and act on God the Father’s, that is Yahweh’s behalf. Two of the angels leave for Sodom, while this “Yahweh” Angel continues and negotiates with Abraham. When the two angels deliver Lot out of Sodom, the Angel designated “Yahweh” rains fire from Yahweh, God the Father out of heaven to destroy Sodom. My understanding of this difference is that the Yahweh angel had the authority to decide the fate of Sodom, but the power to destroy Sodom was with Yahweh, God the Father in heaven. If this Yahweh who spoke to Abraham was the 2nd person of the Trinity, then he would have had the power vested in himself, and not need the Father’ power. Question: Do you believe that all the Angels that have appeared on earth are Yahweh, or the 2nd Person of the Trinity? How do you understand the angels Gabriel and Michael? You have answered this in part, as you exclude Gabriel, but you may like to comment on Michael the Archangel.

No mere angel bears the Name of God.

My assessment of the following is that the angel in Zechariah 3 who bears the Name Yahweh is identified by Jude as Michael, the Archangel.
Zechariah 3:1-2 (KJV): 1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
Jude 9 (KJV): Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Psalm 110 distinguishes between God The Father and God The Son, who was David’s Master (Adonee). That ‘Adonee’ is divine is provided by the fact that The Son will be a priest forever.

Jesus is now a priest for ever, because he has been elevated to sit at God’s right hand. Jesus is “divine” as He is The Son of God.

The unitarian mindset cannot distinguish between Jesus’ deity and His humanity.

You will not find a Biblical verse which informs the reader that Jesus’ deity was ever created. However, you will find verses which tell us that His humanity was created.

In a sense the Divine side of Jesus is a continuation and expansion of The Word, which is God. Where we differ is that you consider that Jesus or the 2nd Person of the Trinity existed before the birth of Jesus.


Kind regards
Trevor

 

[faroukfarouk]

Re: There is One God the Father, Jesus is the Son of God

Greetings homwardbound, saved1975, faroukfarouk, shyness, Bowman and others,

I was interested in your Post #2036, but not sure if I can agree with all that you say. You quote a few of my comments that I stated concerning Psalm 110:1, but I am not sure if what you stated is in explanation of this verse. In your list of verses in Post #2038 are these in support of the Trinity? A few brief comments: when considering John 10:30, in my opinion one verse that helps to understand John 10:30 and disproves the view adopted by Trinitarians on this verse is John 17:21, and you have also quoted this verse. Jesus also fully explains John 10:30 in his answer in John 10:32-36. You have also quoted 1 John 5:7 and most modern translations exclude this verse and most commentators state that this verse is spurious.

I appreciate your response and you are welcome to reaffirm your beliefs. I believe that God the Father is the Creator, but he invited the angels to cooperate, and this is my explanation of the “us” and “our” of Genesis 1:26, and Psalm 8:5 supports this view. It is said of Caesar that before he marched on Rome he stated “I saw, I stooped, I conquered”. Julius Caesar did conquer, but he used his army to effect the conquest. We also speak of a building being designed and built by a particular person, but he uses hundreds of other people to bring the project to completion. God the Father, Yahweh is the Creator and Psalm 8 verifies this fact. Compare also Matthew 11:25-27 which is Jesus’ summary and adaptation of Psalm 8.



Concerning “The Word” before the birth of Jesus have you ever considered the following:
Psalm 33:6 (KJV): By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
Isaiah 55:10-11 (KJV): 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

I appreciate your Post #2040 Shyness, but most of the things that you say, in my opinion, disprove the Trinity.

I appreciate your response Bowman, but my view of most of the passages that we have discussed is different.
I read the Scriptures differently to your assessment. The Angels speak and act on Yahweh’s behalf.
I would be interested in your explanation here. I will briefly give my understanding. The three “men” were angels sent by God, and one of these three is stated to be “Yahweh”, indicating to me that he was the spokesman for the three, but especially given the authority to speak and act on God the Father’s, that is Yahweh’s behalf. Two of the angels leave for Sodom, while this “Yahweh” Angel continues and negotiates with Abraham. When the two angels deliver Lot out of Sodom, the Angel designated “Yahweh” rains fire from Yahweh, God the Father out of heaven to destroy Sodom. My understanding of this difference is that the Yahweh angel had the authority to decide the fate of Sodom, but the power to destroy Sodom was with Yahweh, God the Father in heaven. If this Yahweh who spoke to Abraham was the 2nd person of the Trinity, then he would have had the power vested in himself, and not need the Father’ power. Question: Do you believe that all the Angels that have appeared on earth are Yahweh, or the 2nd Person of the Trinity? How do you understand the angels Gabriel and Michael? You have answered this in part, as you exclude Gabriel, but you may like to comment on Michael the Archangel.


My assessment of the following is that the angel in Zechariah 3 who bears the Name Yahweh is identified by Jude as Michael, the Archangel.
Zechariah 3:1-2 (KJV): 1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
Jude 9 (KJV): Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Jesus is now a priest for ever, because he has been elevated to sit at God’s right hand. Jesus is “divine” as He is The Son of God.

In a sense the Divine side of Jesus is a continuation and expansion of The Word, which is God. Where we differ is that you consider that Jesus or the 2nd Person of the Trinity existed before the birth of Jesus.


Kind regards
Trevor

The Lord Jesus, the Word, is eternal: 'Unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever' (Hebrews 1.8)

I don't we can say of Him, He supposedly did such and such as the Son, but He did such and such as the Word, etc.

He is an eternal Person, God Himself.

 

[saved1975]

Re: There is One God the Father, Jesus is the Son of God

Greetings homwardbound, saved1975, faroukfarouk, shyness, Bowman and others,

I was interested in your Post #2036, but not sure if I can agree with all that you say. You quote a few of my comments that I stated concerning Psalm 110:1, but I am not sure if what you stated is in explanation of this verse. In your list of verses in Post #2038 are these in support of the Trinity? A few brief comments: when considering John 10:30, in my opinion one verse that helps to understand John 10:30 and disproves the view adopted by Trinitarians on this verse is John 17:21, and you have also quoted this verse. Jesus also fully explains John 10:30 in his answer in John 10:32-36. You have also quoted 1 John 5:7 and most modern translations exclude this verse and most commentators state that this verse is spurious.

I appreciate your response and you are welcome to reaffirm your beliefs. I believe that God the Father is the Creator, but he invited the angels to cooperate, and this is my explanation of the “us” and “our” of Genesis 1:26, and Psalm 8:5 supports this view. It is said of Caesar that before he marched on Rome he stated “I saw, I stooped, I conquered”. Julius Caesar did conquer, but he used his army to effect the conquest. We also speak of a building being designed and built by a particular person, but he uses hundreds of other people to bring the project to completion. God the Father, Yahweh is the Creator and Psalm 8 verifies this fact. Compare also Matthew 11:25-27 which is Jesus’ summary and adaptation of Psalm 8.



Concerning “The Word” before the birth of Jesus have you ever considered the following:
Psalm 33:6 (KJV): By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
Isaiah 55:10-11 (KJV): 10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

I appreciate your Post #2040 Shyness, but most of the things that you say, in my opinion, disprove the Trinity.

I appreciate your response Bowman, but my view of most of the passages that we have discussed is different.
I read the Scriptures differently to your assessment. The Angels speak and act on Yahweh’s behalf.
I would be interested in your explanation here. I will briefly give my understanding. The three “men” were angels sent by God, and one of these three is stated to be “Yahweh”, indicating to me that he was the spokesman for the three, but especially given the authority to speak and act on God the Father’s, that is Yahweh’s behalf. Two of the angels leave for Sodom, while this “Yahweh” Angel continues and negotiates with Abraham. When the two angels deliver Lot out of Sodom, the Angel designated “Yahweh” rains fire from Yahweh, God the Father out of heaven to destroy Sodom. My understanding of this difference is that the Yahweh angel had the authority to decide the fate of Sodom, but the power to destroy Sodom was with Yahweh, God the Father in heaven. If this Yahweh who spoke to Abraham was the 2nd person of the Trinity, then he would have had the power vested in himself, and not need the Father’ power. Question: Do you believe that all the Angels that have appeared on earth are Yahweh, or the 2nd Person of the Trinity? How do you understand the angels Gabriel and Michael? You have answered this in part, as you exclude Gabriel, but you may like to comment on Michael the Archangel.


My assessment of the following is that the angel in Zechariah 3 who bears the Name Yahweh is identified by Jude as Michael, the Archangel.
Zechariah 3:1-2 (KJV): 1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
Jude 9 (KJV): Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

Jesus is now a priest for ever, because he has been elevated to sit at God’s right hand. Jesus is “divine” as He is The Son of God.

In a sense the Divine side of Jesus is a continuation and expansion of The Word, which is God. Where we differ is that you consider that Jesus or the 2nd Person of the Trinity existed before the birth of Jesus.


Kind regards
Trevor

You said,

.
I appreciate your response and you are welcome to reaffirm your beliefs. I believe that God the Father is the Creator, but he invited the angels to cooperate, and this is my explanation of the “us” and “our” of Genesis 1:26, and Psalm 8:5 supports this view.
[End quote].



Angels didn't created heaven, earth or mankind. Jesus is the creator, John 1: 1--3, Col 1: 16, Heb 1: 2.
Please note, There is no mention of Angels creating.
The Holy Spirit is the creator, Gen 1: 1. Job 33: 4. Ps 104: 30.
Please note, No mention of Angels.

Ps 8: 5, doesn't support the idea that Angels created, V 1-3, Says it was the Lord who created.

 

[Bowman]

Re: There is One God the Father, Jesus is the Son of God

I appreciate your response Bowman, but my view of most of the passages that we have discussed is different.
I read the Scriptures differently to your assessment.

Your take on the scriptures does not have any support, brother.

Like the quintessential Unitarian, you fail to read context and study the original languages.

The Angels speak and act on Yahweh’s behalf.

Not Malek Yahweh....because He already IS Yahweh.

I would be interested in your explanation here. I will briefly give my understanding. The three “men” were angels sent by God, and one of these three is stated to be “Yahweh”, indicating to me that he was the spokesman for the three, but especially given the authority to speak and act on God the Father’s, that is Yahweh’s behalf. Two of the angels leave for Sodom, while this “Yahweh” Angel continues and negotiates with Abraham. When the two angels deliver Lot out of Sodom, the Angel designated “Yahweh” rains fire from Yahweh, God the Father out of heaven to destroy Sodom. My understanding of this difference is that the Yahweh angel had the authority to decide the fate of Sodom, but the power to destroy Sodom was with Yahweh, God the Father in heaven. If this Yahweh who spoke to Abraham was the 2nd person of the Trinity, then he would have had the power vested in himself, and not need the Father’ power.

Abraham saw Jesus in the OT…


Your father Abraham leaped for joy that he should see My day, and he saw, and rejoiced.
Then the Jews said to Him, You do not yet have fifty years, and have You seen Abraham?
Jesus said to them, Truly, truly, I say to you, Before Abraham came to be, I AM!

(John 8.56 – 58)


Compare…



Gen 18 – 19:

· Yahweh appears as ‘three men’ to Abraham (Gen 18.1 – 2)
· Abraham addresses the ‘three men’ as ‘my Lords’ (adonai - plural)
· Abrahams responds… “If I have found favor in your (singular) sight (singular)…” (Gen 18.3)
· “They answered Abraham” indicating that each of the ‘three men’ were Lord (Gen 18.5) (Effectively eliminating the three angels or God and two angels argument)
· Yahweh speaks of Yahweh in the third person (Gen 18.14, 19)
· Yahweh remained to talk with Abraham, then returned to Heaven without going to Sodom (Gen 18.33)
· According to the text, there are at least two Yahwehs in Genesis 18 – 19. One Yahweh stated that he would go down to Sodom – and then two of the ‘three men’ went to Sodom (Gen 18.2, 22; 19.12). Abraham remained talking with another Yahweh (Gen 18.21 – 22). Later, Yahweh is described as being in Heaven while Yahweh is mentioned as being in Sodom (Gen 19.24)
· Gen 18 -19 shows us that there was never such a thing as the ‘Majestic Plural’

Question: Do you believe that all the Angels that have appeared on earth are Yahweh, or the 2nd Person of the Trinity?

No.

Where did you get this idea from?

Malek Yahweh was God in human form in the OT, and He bears His name.

How do you understand the angels Gabriel and Michael? You have answered this in part, as you exclude Gabriel, but you may like to comment on Michael the Archangel.

Again...

Mere angels are just that...created entities and NOT deity....nor do they bear the name of Yahweh.

Malek Yahweh, however, was not created, speaks as Yahweh, acts as Yahweh, and bears the name Yahweh.

See the difference...?

 

[Bowman]

Re: There is One God the Father, Jesus is the Son of God

My assessment of the following is that the angel in Zechariah 3 who bears the Name Yahweh is identified by Jude as Michael, the Archangel.
Zechariah 3:1-2 (KJV): 1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him. 2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
Jude 9 (KJV): Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

How in the world do you make that connection from two entirely dissimilar stories?

Zech 3 informs the reader that Malek Yahweh is called Yahweh.

Here, The Malek forgives sins - something ONLY God can do! (Mark 2.7; Luke 5.21).

Jesus is now a priest for ever, because he has been elevated to sit at God’s right hand. Jesus is “divine” as He is The Son of God.

The Son has always been divine.

In a sense the Divine side of Jesus is a continuation and expansion of The Word, which is God. Where we differ is that you consider that Jesus or the 2nd Person of the Trinity existed before the birth of Jesus.


Kind regards
Trevor

Jacob wrestles with The God-man

You can see exactly how the sum-total of scripture informs the reader exactly who Jacob wrestled with, and this is with the Second Person of the Trinity, The Son:

· The Word of Yahweh (1 Kings 18.31)
· Yahweh (2 Kings 17.34)
· Malek ‘Messenger’ (Hosea 12.4)
· Elohim ‘God’ (Gen 32.28)
· Man (Gen 32.24)



Gen 32.24 - 30

And Jacob was left alone. And a Man wrestled with himuntil the ascending of the dawn. And He saw that He had not prevailed against him. And He touched on his hip socket, and Jacob's hip socket was unhinged as he wrestled with Him. And He said, Send Me away, for the dawn has ascended. And he said, I will not let You go unless You bless me. And He said to him, What is your name? And he said, Jacob. And He said, Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel, because you have wrestled with God and with men, and have prevailed. And Jacob asked and said, Please reveal Your name. And He said, Why this that you ask about My name? And He blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Face of God, because I saw God face to face, and my life is delivered.

• The man with whom Jacob wrestled, said that Jacob had wrestled with God (Gen 32.28)
• Jacob believed that the man was telling the truth (Gen 32.30)
• Jacob said that the man he wrestled, was God – that he had seen God face to face (Gen 32.30)
• The man with whom Jacob wrestled, changed Jacob’s name to Israel (Gen 32.28)…compare to (1Ki 18.31; 2 Ki 17.34) which both state that Yahweh changed Jacob’s name
• Jacob wrestled with The Elohim-man
• Jacob wrestled with The Yahweh-man
• Jacob wrestled with The God-man
• Jacob wrestled with The second person of the Trinity, The Son

Compare…


Isaiah 45.3 - 5

And I will give you the treasures of darkness, even treasures in secret places, that you may know that I am Yahweh, who calls you by your name, the God of Israel. For My slave Jacob's sake, and for Israel My elect, I entitle you. I name you, but you do not know Me. I am Yahweh, and there is none else; there is no God except Me. I will clothe you, though you do not know Me,

 

[ThomistColin]

Bowman, how do you answer that Malekh Yahweh is God because he has the name of God in his title, when Gabriel (meaning fire of God) and Michael (meaning strength of God) also have El, as in El Shaddai, in their names, but they are not God?

 

[Daley]

Isaiah 9:6 calls Jesus the Mighty God, and Isaiah 45:5 tells us there is only one God, so either Jesus is the one God, or else he is another god, which would mean Isaiah 45:5 is wrong. You choose.

 

[ThomistColin]

Isaiah 9:6 calls Jesus the Mighty God, and Isaiah 45:5 tells us there is only one God, so either Jesus is the one God, or else he is another god, which would mean Isaiah 45:5 is wrong. You choose.

Jesus is the One God, as is the Father and the Holy Spirit.

 

[Daley]

Jesus is the One God, as is the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Three persons, one God. Anyone who denies the trinity would be left with a belief in more than one God. That's why I must be a trinitarian. The only other option is modalism, which denies the distinction between the three as presented in Scripture, and creates contradiction.

 

[ThomistColin]

Three persons, one God. Anyone who denies the trinity would be left with a belief in more than one God. That's why I must be a trinitarian. The only other option is modalism, which denies the distinction between the three as presented in Scripture, and creates contradiction.

Bowman's avatar shows this perfectly. It's called the trinity wheel.

 

[Bowman]

Bowman, how do you answer that Malekh Yahweh is God because he has the name of God in his title, when Gabriel (meaning fire of God) and Michael (meaning strength of God) also have El, as in El Shaddai, in their names, but they are not God?

Where are Gabriel and Michael called Yahweh?

 

[ThomistColin]

Where are Gabriel and Michael called Yahweh?

My point is that the name El Shaddai predates Yahweh, and for the longest time He was known as El. Just because someone's title or name includes the name or title of God, does not mean they are God. Michael and Gabriel are angels whose names are attributes of God.