There Are Many Scriptures That Disprove The Trinity
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Re: Jesus is God.
Start your quest in Gen 5....where the formula is repeated from Gen 1 in which both Adam & Eve were created (bara, bara, bara) three times for The trinity....but then observe how the formula changes from 'created' to 'begotten'.
Adam & Eve were 'created'.
Every human AFTER these two were 'begotten'....and begotten in the fallen image of Adam...
Start your quest in Gen 5....where the formula is repeated from Gen 1 in which both Adam & Eve were created (bara, bara, bara) three times for The trinity....but then observe how the formula changes from 'created' to 'begotten'.
Adam & Eve were 'created'.
Every human AFTER these two were 'begotten'....and begotten in the fallen image of Adam...
Oh really?
Observe what you missed...
Rev 4.9 – 11
And whenever the living creatures shall give glory and honor and thanks to the One sitting on the throne, to the One living to the ages of the ages, the twenty four elders fall down before Him sitting on the throne; and they will worship the One living to the ages of the ages, and will throw their crowns before the throne, saying, Lord, You are worthy to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because You created all things, and through Your will they exist and were created.
So…
Please tell us exactly how it is that God, who sits upon the Throne, is ‘worthy’ to ‘receive’ the glory and the honor and the power?
What did God have to do to become worthy of receiving something?
Observe what you missed...
Rev 4.9 – 11
And whenever the living creatures shall give glory and honor and thanks to the One sitting on the throne, to the One living to the ages of the ages, the twenty four elders fall down before Him sitting on the throne; and they will worship the One living to the ages of the ages, and will throw their crowns before the throne, saying, Lord, You are worthy to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because You created all things, and through Your will they exist and were created.
So…
Please tell us exactly how it is that God, who sits upon the Throne, is ‘worthy’ to ‘receive’ the glory and the honor and the power?
What did God have to do to become worthy of receiving something?
Separating Father, Son and Holy Ghost, is separated as in three different forms.
Like: What is water in the form of ice, and in the form of steam, sre not all three still water, yet seen in three different forms, and now in Revelations 5 that is how they are seen according to the text. Still all three are one
Like: What is water in the form of ice, and in the form of steam, sre not all three still water, yet seen in three different forms, and now in Revelations 5 that is how they are seen according to the text. Still all three are one
Not sure what you are getting at, I believe all three are one and one are all three.
Like an egg is not lnown as an egg without all three parts.
The shell, = Jesus, in the body, The White= Holy Spirit of God, the messenger of God for waht to do and say, The Yoke, God the Father in Heaven whom is a Spirit and we are to only worship Father in Spirit and truth
Too simple for me, and you
Like an egg is not lnown as an egg without all three parts.
The shell, = Jesus, in the body, The White= Holy Spirit of God, the messenger of God for waht to do and say, The Yoke, God the Father in Heaven whom is a Spirit and we are to only worship Father in Spirit and truth
Too simple for me, and you
There is here on earth in the physical, and there is there in heaven where we are citizens of in the Spirit of God, and is where we are to live while here as ambassadors representing the Love, joy, peace and righteousness found in God the creator of all, via God's Spirit , known as the Holy Spirit that leads, the same one that led Christ while in the body here on earth, today that is our job to be available for God to use us to bring in the sheep to Father alone, just as Christ did, before his death, burial, resurrection and ascension, then the Pentecost.
This is a great scripture you have chosen to support the Trinity.
This scripture is analogous to the John 10:30 vs John 17:21 except Rev. 3:21 compresses the thought into 1 scripture.
This is what I mean. John 10:30 says that I and my Father are one. First blush, you would think that is a class A scripture to support the Trinity. How could it be any more clear, Jesus is saying right straight out that he and the Father are one, discussion over.
But then you read a little further in John to John 17 and all of a sudden you start thinking about how this chapter relates to John 10:30, because the verbiage is the same, except that it sounds like that not only are Jesus and God one, but so are the apostles and all that believe in the apostles. That could literally be billions of people that are one with God and Jesus. How can billions of people be in the Trinity?
So we go back to John 10:30 and take another look, especially at the word "one". After careful study and consideration, I came to the conclusion that the word "one" in John 10:30 did not mean that Jesus and God were one physically, but were "one" in mind, will, purpose, and action. They were separate and distinct individuals, but 1 in action "as if they are one God". That was the only solution possible to reconciling John 10 and John 17 and that works. God and Jesus and Holy Spirit in the Godhead working together as 1 and all the rest of us also working together as 1 for the salvation of man.
Now look at Revelations 3:21 in the same way. This portion of Revelations is Jesus talking to the Laodiceans, and he knows their works for good and bad and then tells them of blessings that are open to them if they will overcome the world.
And one of those blessing he offers is in vs 21.
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Jesus is indeed set down with his Father in his throne, so at this point it looks like they occupy the same throne. But did you stop to think about how Jesus was going to sit with the Father in his throne, while at the same time sitting with all that overcome the world in his own throne. Sounds to me like there are a lot of people occupying the throne of God. So I have to take a second look at the meaning of this scripture. My solution is that this is a metaphor. All who overcome are not going to really be sitting with Jesus in his throne, that would be a bit difficult, unless Jesus has a great big throne. For the same reason and from the same scripture, Jesus is not really going to sit with the Father in his throne either. We are, however, going to be in the presence of Jesus, around his throne, as he will be in the presence of the Father near his throne.
If this scripture said only that Jesus was sitting with his Father in his throne, then you might have a point. But read and think again about this scripture and you will come to the same conclusion that I have come to.
Again Revelations 3:21 is a good example of how all that overcome and Jesus and God can all work together and be together as "one", even though we are all separate and distinct individuals.
This scripture is analogous to the John 10:30 vs John 17:21 except Rev. 3:21 compresses the thought into 1 scripture.
This is what I mean. John 10:30 says that I and my Father are one. First blush, you would think that is a class A scripture to support the Trinity. How could it be any more clear, Jesus is saying right straight out that he and the Father are one, discussion over.
But then you read a little further in John to John 17 and all of a sudden you start thinking about how this chapter relates to John 10:30, because the verbiage is the same, except that it sounds like that not only are Jesus and God one, but so are the apostles and all that believe in the apostles. That could literally be billions of people that are one with God and Jesus. How can billions of people be in the Trinity?
So we go back to John 10:30 and take another look, especially at the word "one". After careful study and consideration, I came to the conclusion that the word "one" in John 10:30 did not mean that Jesus and God were one physically, but were "one" in mind, will, purpose, and action. They were separate and distinct individuals, but 1 in action "as if they are one God". That was the only solution possible to reconciling John 10 and John 17 and that works. God and Jesus and Holy Spirit in the Godhead working together as 1 and all the rest of us also working together as 1 for the salvation of man.
Now look at Revelations 3:21 in the same way. This portion of Revelations is Jesus talking to the Laodiceans, and he knows their works for good and bad and then tells them of blessings that are open to them if they will overcome the world.
And one of those blessing he offers is in vs 21.
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
Jesus is indeed set down with his Father in his throne, so at this point it looks like they occupy the same throne. But did you stop to think about how Jesus was going to sit with the Father in his throne, while at the same time sitting with all that overcome the world in his own throne. Sounds to me like there are a lot of people occupying the throne of God. So I have to take a second look at the meaning of this scripture. My solution is that this is a metaphor. All who overcome are not going to really be sitting with Jesus in his throne, that would be a bit difficult, unless Jesus has a great big throne. For the same reason and from the same scripture, Jesus is not really going to sit with the Father in his throne either. We are, however, going to be in the presence of Jesus, around his throne, as he will be in the presence of the Father near his throne.
If this scripture said only that Jesus was sitting with his Father in his throne, then you might have a point. But read and think again about this scripture and you will come to the same conclusion that I have come to.
Again Revelations 3:21 is a good example of how all that overcome and Jesus and God can all work together and be together as "one", even though we are all separate and distinct individuals.
For creating the earth and the heavens and all that is in them, and man and sending His Son Jesus (the Lamb slain before the foundations of the world) to save men from their sins, so we can live with Him forever.
He had to create. If He did not create, there would be nothing, especially man, to give Him anything.
He had to create. If He did not create, there would be nothing, especially man, to give Him anything.
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I know at times I tend to be a bit harsh is my explanations. I do not intend to be so, it is just that I have a tendency to be very blunt so please do not take what I am saying to be unkind. Having said this, your post demonstrates two very clear issues. First, you are not properly understanding the concept of 'one' as it is defined within the context of Jn. 10. Secondly, You are thinking anthropomorphically regarding the use of the word throne as it relates to God.
In Jn 10, the context is the shepherd of the flock. The flock quite obviously represents the people of God. The shepherd is represented in the following ways. Jesus says, “I am the good shepherd" to whom the flock belongs and that no one can snatch them out of his hand. He than says that they also belong to the Father and no one can snatch them out of his hand. He closes this illustration then with the statement, "I and the Father are one." The question then is one what? Contextually, they are one shepherd, one owner of the flock. Always allow the context to define its own use of language. We learn from a number of O.T. passages like Psalms 23 and Ezk.34 that the Shepherd of Israel is Jehovah. The Jews to whom Jesus spoke did not miss the implication of Jesus' illustration. They knew who the Shepherd of Israel was and just who Jesus was claiming to be. Their response was to pick up stone to stone him for blasphemy, "You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” Although Jesus never said in his illustration "I am God" they immediately and correctly made the connection. Now, if Jesus is not God, then they not only had a right to stone him to death for blasphemy, they had an obligation to do so. If on the other hand, Jesus is God as he presented in the illustration then the people were wrong for wanting to stone him.
In the matter of the throne, you seem to have a picture in you mind of God being literally seated on some type of throne. This is an anthropomorphic picture. The term throne is simply a revealed symbolism that represents authority and the power to Judge. Jesus is also pictured as sitting on the throne of his father David as well. This simply symbolizes Jesus' authority. This is not talking about a literal, physical chair.
In Jn 10, the context is the shepherd of the flock. The flock quite obviously represents the people of God. The shepherd is represented in the following ways. Jesus says, “I am the good shepherd" to whom the flock belongs and that no one can snatch them out of his hand. He than says that they also belong to the Father and no one can snatch them out of his hand. He closes this illustration then with the statement, "I and the Father are one." The question then is one what? Contextually, they are one shepherd, one owner of the flock. Always allow the context to define its own use of language. We learn from a number of O.T. passages like Psalms 23 and Ezk.34 that the Shepherd of Israel is Jehovah. The Jews to whom Jesus spoke did not miss the implication of Jesus' illustration. They knew who the Shepherd of Israel was and just who Jesus was claiming to be. Their response was to pick up stone to stone him for blasphemy, "You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” Although Jesus never said in his illustration "I am God" they immediately and correctly made the connection. Now, if Jesus is not God, then they not only had a right to stone him to death for blasphemy, they had an obligation to do so. If on the other hand, Jesus is God as he presented in the illustration then the people were wrong for wanting to stone him.
In the matter of the throne, you seem to have a picture in you mind of God being literally seated on some type of throne. This is an anthropomorphic picture. The term throne is simply a revealed symbolism that represents authority and the power to Judge. Jesus is also pictured as sitting on the throne of his father David as well. This simply symbolizes Jesus' authority. This is not talking about a literal, physical chair.
Obviously conclusion has not been reached. This is proof that some want to believe one way and others the other way in whatever conversation ensues. In other words "what's the point?" Is there a spiritual meaning for us to be edified and grow, or is it a stalemate as so many other threads portray, trying to convince others that our beliefs are right, and theirs are wrong? The rhetorical question then arises. What's the point?
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There has never been a doubt about the fact that there are 3. The question is, are they 3 persons all in 1 body, or are they 3 persons in 3 separate and distinct bodies. The scriptures have a tendency to give ample support for both. It is somewhat of a dilemma. I tend toward 3 in 3. It seems to me that I can reconcile 3 in 3 with all scriptures far greater than I can reconcile 3 in 1. So I go that way.