There is no New Testament command to pay tithes

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Blackpowderduelist

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Dunno about that particular case. My general observation is that churches that do tithing are well of financially and have good margins. But here's another angle of the thing: If you do tithing as a kind of demand or must or under some kind of threat, then it might work counter effective. See it primarily as a practical solution and a fair way of putting things together. There are too many churches where some people give far above 10% monthly and others far less than so. It's a way of balancing things also. It's actually a minimum of what could be expected. And if the minimum works well, how much more the maximum?
I would like to see all false teaching brought to a sudden and abrupt halt.
 

tribesman

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Oct 13, 2011
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I would like to see all false teaching brought to a sudden and abrupt halt.
Ya, me too. But thing is, there are too many self-appointed bishops out there who hold their own doctrines to be the only right one. "I am right, you are wrong! I decide what is sound doctrine!" and next fella: "No, I am right and you are wrong and I decide what is sound doctrine!" and so it goes on and on. It's a miserable situation with tens of thousands of churches, denoms, sects and cults, ever increasing in number.
 

presidente

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May 29, 2013
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Seeking to obey the law, whether it be Jews or Gentiles, it had the same damning effect upon both.
You are mistating or misinterpreting Paul's doctrine here. If this were the case, you would be damned if you did not commit murder. You would be damned if you never ate camel.

The issue is seeking to be justified by the law. For a Gentile, that would mean getting circumcised and taking on the obligation to obey the law. The heart attitude behind doing that would be a lack of faith in Christ.

If going into the temple and paying for temple rituals damned a Christian, then Paul would have been damned. The Jewish Christians he went into the temple with to pay their expenses would have been damned, too. It is implied that the Jewish believers in Acts were keeping the law (or trying to). That does not mean they all sought to be justified by keeping the law. Abraham is the father of faith to both the circumcised and the uncircumcised, both Jew and Gentile, both Torah-observant Jewish believer in Messiah and Gentile believer in Messiah.
 

Runningman

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I think it's great to donate to the church with a cheerful heart: money, food, clothing, etc. But not under compulsion or commandment.

As far as I can tell the only bar that needs to be met before giving is cheerfulness. I don't think giving out of revenge, thinly veiled behind good Christian behavior, or out of fear are good reasons to give.

Hebrews 10:24-25 says that when we assemble together then do it to stir each other up for love and good works. We can donate to the body of Christ with the express purpose of stirring up love, encouraging good works, and doing good works and so much more.

This can also be immaterial things, too. We can give love, encouragement, and the kind of things that moth and rust do not destroy. We can sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs of praise together, smile, and rejoice together.

Hebrews 10:24-25
24And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:
25Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

Ephesians 5:19-21
19Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;
20Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
21Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
 
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People do it all the time. I hear stories of extraordinary giving from members of the church. People give money, give homes, give cars, give properties.
Edited. The "scribe" verse is part of your signature and not part of your post. :)
 

CS1

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Y'all are cheap and greedy!!! :p Just kidding.

I agree that preaching the tithe from the law and telling people they are robbing from God or going to be cursed is not what Paul or anyone taught the New Testament believers.

However I do see a principle in the scriptures quoted " 2Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, "

When each member of the local church understands that God will meet needs in the church, (whether it is local needs or needs in another groups of Christians down the road somewhere,) through each member of the church, they will realize that a sudden unexpected "prosperity" came to them so that they will give a portion of it to the needs and as each member does this the collection will meet those needs. This portion should be according to their faith and with a cheerful heart.

I see in this scripture a guiding principle of a portion each week by each individual as God has prospered him. There is no reason to think that it should be only a once a year special offering for poor saints in Jerusalem. Why limit it to that? It is an example that is given that can be used to draw a conclusion that:
1) It is not relative to the wealth of the giver (every one of you)
2) the first day of the week (a routine, a habit, a consistent method)
3) As God hath prospered him, (it is through the daily transactions of or lives that income will be earned each week that maybe we did not even expect and we should think "I know why that came to me, so that I can give a portion to the church) and if everyone else is aware of this and bringing a portion as God has prospered them, then the needs of the church will be met.

If one decides to give 10% of all income that comes their way in a week, because they think it is a good method of being consistent in given a portion as God has prospered them, and they are not using the OT law to make that decision but simply thinking that it will work if all members followed that example then they should not be criticized for doing it. They are giving according to what they believe to be a biblical principle using 1 Cor 16 as their guide.

There is a way to follow these principles from scripture that is of faith and not of the law. Each must give according as to how they have determined in their heart.

What I do not agree with is any form or philosophy that results in the member of a local church not giving, or tossing an occasional few dollars in out of guilt, while spending hundreds of dollars a month on coffee, fast food, and so many other things that do nothing for them but make them fat. Some would say that salvation is not based on your giving and I agree but I propose that those who are having the mind of Christ are going to feel much better about giving some of that fast food budget to help meet the needs of their local church that they claim is so important to them.

I am not going to teach it as a law. I am not going to try and make someone feel like they are sinning if they don't give 10%. People should not give with that kind of legalistic pressure. They should give in faith. It is theirs to do with as they wish. They can give it or not give it and still be saved. Their own heart of love and interest in the things of God and meeting needs will cause them to give to meet those needs.

That being said, I believe MOST Christians involved in a local church should have given a portion from their stimulus checks to their local church. I think 10% of income is a good guide for making financial budgets. It also helps the church plan theirs. It is probably 10% to 20% of a congregation that are consistent in giving a 10% offering. Imagine the stress relieve of a church if everyone in the congregation gave 10%?

These esoterical ideas about giving what and when you feel moved upon by the Spirit to give and having no plan and no consistent amount or percentage results in a few dollars in the plate and a once or twice a year $20. So since most people don't give much without a plan, 10% would work for the church if everyone did it. They would be able to give to support poor saints in Jerusalem as well as meet their own local needs.
Luke 6:38
Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.”
 
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What is your belief about giving to support the church?
Check your financial records from the past year. That's your philosophy on giving.
Did you spend more on McDonalds and Starbucks than you gave to support the church and Gospel preaching? That is where your heart is at. Wake up. The Bridegroom cometh!
I will mail over a photograph of a forgery of a $100 note. Will that do? :cool:
 
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Malachi 3:8 - “Will a mere mortal rob God? Yet you rob me. “But you ask, ‘How are we robbing you?’ “In tithes and offerings. 9 You are under a curse—your whole nation—because you are robbing me. The whole nation of Israel. Malachi is written to Israel under the old covenant.

That same Pastor I mentioned in post #20 legalistically uses the 10% tithe to brow-beat people in that church with guilt. He even handed out pledge cards for people to fill out so they can pledge to give extra money on a monthly basis over a three year period above and beyond the 10% tithe directly to the "moving forward" project to build a new mega church. More than a few people have left that church because all that Pastor mainly talked about is money (primarily the 10% tithe) and building that new mega church.

During one sermon he even mentioned that a member of that church came into his office one day somewhat irate and said that he is leaving that church because he is tired of hearing about money all the time and needs to find a church where he can go deeper in the Word. The Pastor mentioned that the word "deeper" is a code word for "I'm not tithing 10%." The Pastor went on to say that he checked the records and sure enough that member of the church was not giving 10% and some months gave nothing at all and then acted like good riddance to him!

I believe that we should give money to our church and whatever amount of money that we wish to give is between us and God, but we should not turn giving into a 'legalistic prescription.'
I once quipped in a church that because I am Presbyterian I have to be careful with my wallet so the moth doesn't fly out. I received a stern lecture about tithing from the pastor, and I felt guilty for a whole 30 seconds!
 
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Organization, financial management and budgeting is not unspiritual. We usually consider it part of being a mature responsible adult.

If your church suggests that each person bring a tithe of their income each week in order to support the church's mission to evangelize the community then it is a sign of an organized, effective plan to accomplish the task.

Give whatever / whenever is a bit chaotic and usually results in "I'll give later" syndrome.

When someone is committed to their local fellowship as their family that they do everything with they will see their 10% regular contribution as the same kind of communal contribution as they read about in the book of Acts. Each bringing something on a consistent basis instead of a chaotic unpredictable fashion that can't be used to budget anything on.

Lots of opinions and philosophies on this topic but when it comes down to making real life and ministry work and planning budgets a plan is necessary and 10% is a great plan. Why not just get behind the pastor's vision and together as a local church evangelize the community by funding it with 10% of each member? A 10% plan is better than no plan.

The 10% contribution from each member to support the work of the ministry of the local church to evangelize the world is a plan that is not going away. It is here to stay. In considering the theology of this plan don't you think that the love principle of joining with your brothers and sisters in a local fellowship to contribute to that plan to fund the work of the ministry and to make that local fellowship your core family and to work together to reach your community is much more important to God than whether the 10% is mentioned in the New Testament as the amount to give? Who CARES!!!! Just cooperate with your local family to get the job done!!!

If you are neglecting your involvement with the local church because they teach tithing is a good principle to follow to meet the budget of the church and you think it is not spelled out exactly like that in the New Testament you are committing a much more grievous error by neglecting the assembling of yourself with the body of Christ and violating the law of love by doing so. You might be guilty of straining a gnat and swallowing a camel.
To be (rarely) serious about it - I belong to a gym and pay my subscription in fortnightly instalments. Those instalments from members keep the gym in business. I wouldn't oppose a church telling its members if they want to continue fellowshipping there and benefitting from the ministry and resources, a subscription would be introduced. If I was a member in that church, I would pay it because it is offering me a service. Of course, there are some who want to leech the church as a "freeby" so they can sit in their pew and do nothing else such as take a role in the church or give financial support, and would leave to they can continue their free ride in another church.

In my last church, I didn't have a lot of money to contribute, so I took on several roles in the church and gave hours of my time and effort in what I did in its support to make up my lack of financial support.
 
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Malachi was talking about the law of the tithe. You're more than welcome to take your grain and livestock to the temple if you can find it. While you're at it, you're supposed to present yourself 3 times a year at the temple. Have fun with that, Law keeper.
We all pay our tithe to the nation. It is called "taxes" and it is a lot more than 10%!! Tax avoidance is robbery and is a criminal offence in most countries. In Israel, tithe avoidance was exactly the same.
 
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I addressed this "bastardized version of the law" in my initial post here.

However, this does nothing to negate THE FACT that Jesus currently receives tithes:

"And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth." (Heb. 7:8)

Who is Jesus receiving tithes from if not from Christians?

How is he receiving tithes from Christians if they're not paying them?
The quote is not about tithing, but about the greatness of Melchizedek. So, to make the verse say it is tithing to Jesus is to twist it right out of its context, and making the verse say what you want it to say. Nice attempt, but no cigar! ;)
 

Nehemiah6

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Tax avoidance is robbery and is a criminal offence in most countries.
I would say that in the day that we live the governments are the robbers and thieves, and the ordinary tax-payers are the victims. A reasonable tax is to be expected, but when taxation becomes a burden while the value of the dollar drops, then the government must be held accountable. There is also a difference between tax avoidance (through tax planning) and TAX EVASION (failing to pay what is actually due).

All governments are not only squandering hard-earned tax dollars, but creating huge deficits and national and state or provincial debts. Politicians in general are completely irresponsible as we can now see all around us. America is now under anarchy and Marxist domination, while trillions of dollars are going to the cronies of evil politicians.

Getting back to the issue of tithing, preachers and churches do themselves a great disservice by failing to teach Christian giving or liberality (which is actually a spiritual gift and goes well beyond 10% as we see in Scripture). By the same token all Christians have access to the Bible, and all Christians should now that gifts and offerings to the Lord for godly purposes are an integral part of service to God and Christ.
 

Runningman

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Luke 6:38
Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over will be put into your bosom. For with the same measure that you use, it will be measured back to you.”
It's like the people I've witnessed to who couldn't find it in themselves to be believers in Christ singularly because they pulled verses like the one you just quoted, removed from all context, and attempted to test it and got nothing in return.

Material wealth and spiritual wealth are two vastly different things: store up for yourself treasures in heaven where moth and rust don't destroy. Your treasure is where your heart is.

If you know of a command to tithe in the new testament please share it. So far I've seen nothing that indicates any level of law keeping or owing money to anyone outside of my purposes and cheer.
 

Funkus

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what about the pastors that yuck around in private jets?
 

Runningman

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what about the pastors that yuck around in private jets?
I'm not really sure what you're asking. Do you mean is there a problem with being a pastor and flying in a private jet?

Those two factors isolated by themselves: no problem.

I mean, the Bible says a lot about what the love of money and wealth can do to people. I think they are more like guidelines and no hard commandments to take a vow of poverty.

Excess money can probably agitate our carnal nature into sin, but not always and without exception.

Money itself is not evil. The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil

Like many things, it isn't the appearance that matters to God, it's the state of the heart as to why we do them.

Should we pray in front of others? Not to receive praise from them. Should we pray in front of others for the purpose of giving glory to God? Yes.

Should we do good deeds in sight of others to impress others? No. Should we do good deeds in sight of others because we love God? Yes.

Can a person have a lot of material possessions and be corrupted by them? Yep. Can a person have a lot of material possessions and not be corrupted by them? Yep
 

Funkus

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Runningman corruption doesn't exist in your eyes? you have very innocent eyes bless you for that - because if you are wrong then corruption has infiltrated many of the preachers of God - your eternal soul is on the line here - the enemy has passed over all the wealthy pastors, sure he has.... good luck buddy
 

Runningman

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Runningman corruption doesn't exist in your eyes? you have very innocent eyes bless you for that - because if you are wrong then corruption has infiltrated many of the preachers of God - your eternal soul is on the line here - the enemy has passed over all the wealthy pastors, sure he has.... good luck buddy
Where did you read in my comment where I said "corruption doesn't exist?" I'm genuinely perplexed how you came to that conclusion.

Thanks for the encouragement, but I'm as innocent as a dove and wise as a serpent.
 

Funkus

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OK Runningman and i don't mean to be a pain i just have seen/sensed some evil in the church and i don't like it
i don't feel that need to apologise for that, and i don't want to accuse anyone either
but something is wrong and i'm sure of that much, the way that pastors act does not help with their arrogant demands for money i have no 'spiritual reserve' of tolerance - nope. Zero. If I see it, it means fleecing the flock. That is what I think and that is what I'm saying
 

CS1

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It's like the people I've witnessed to who couldn't find it in themselves to be believers in Christ singularly because they pulled verses like the one you just quoted, removed from all context, and attempted to test it and got nothing in return.

Material wealth and spiritual wealth are two vastly different things: store up for yourself treasures in heaven where moth and rust don't destroy. Your treasure is where your heart is.

If you know of command to tithe in the new testament please share it. So far I've seen nothing that indicates any level of law keeping or owing money to anyone outside of my purposes and cheer.

I am not sure if you are saying I am not a believer in Christ or you are suggesting one thinks this as to do with only money?

You are wrong on both counts. The truth that many hold their money very close to them because most people have to work very hard for iT!


There is a difference between giving a lamb or goat or camel 2000 years ago and money today is payment was done by those live animals. Jesus also said it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a Rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
Matthew 19:24.

While you attack those who do tithe, my Biblical focus was on GIVING. Which Jesus said to do. IF you don't tithe that is between you and God as it is for those who give between them and God.


I love how some use the word of God as a way not to give. Which part of Maleciah applies to us or is anything we to apply in our lives in the context of Giving?