There will be no Rapture!!!

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FollowerofShiloh

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Nope. That's not true. The "day of the Lord" is known to be the entirety of that 70th heptad, what is called the seven years tribulation, not His second coming.

Also notice that the Lord will call up His Church to Him in the air BEFORE the verses in chapter 5 that speak of the "day of the Lord." It's interesting that you overlook that with such abandon when it doesn't fit your narrative, because I agree that the chapter separation is purely subjective in this case.



And yet He tells that Church in Sardis that those who watch will know the hour of His coming, unlike those who do not watch.



Precisely my point. Believers who are watching will not suffer the wrath of the Lamb against Israel and the unbelieving world, and they will know the hour of His coming so that it is NOT as a "thief in the night" to them.



Nope. He is saying that believers will not be surprised by what they know is coming before it happens. The logic of all that is very clear, but some people just want to stick with perpetual ignorance for some strange reason. When the Lord makes known to those who watch that His coming is in that hour, He is not limited from doing so by anything He has ever said. It was indeed true for those 2000 years ago that NO man knew the day nor hour of His coming, but then He makes known to them that the day s coming when those who are alive WILL know the hour of His coming. It would be "as a thief in the night" to everyone if NOBODY knew in advance of His coming.



Yes, and Yahshuah speaking through John told Christians that they will know beforehand the hour of His coming for those who watch. Those who don't want to glean the understanding of "beforehand" can believe whatever they want, but that will never change what is said.

MM
Paul's Day of the Lord includes Jesus coming in the ""CLOUDS""
Jesus Day of the Lord includes coming in the ""CLOUDS""
John's Day of the Lord in Revelation includes coming in the ""CLOUDS""

People will be able to see ""coming in the CLOUDS""
No Secret Rapture anywhere but in Fairy Tale Land.
 

Musicmaster

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Paul's Day of the Lord includes Jesus coming in the ""CLOUDS""
Jesus Day of the Lord includes coming in the ""CLOUDS""
John's Day of the Lord in Revelation includes coming in the ""CLOUDS""

People will be able to see ""coming in the CLOUDS""
No Secret Rapture anywhere but in Fairy Tale Land.
You do indeed overlook so much, and by missing so much to lump it in together with what does not match, that only shows to us the errors in your thinking.

After the resurrection of Yahshuah, only believers saw and touched Him, so His ascent was a secret event that no unbelievers could see. With His coming for the Church in like manner, only believers will see Him. The text betrays all this, even though you choose to ignore it. If this were not the case, the weeks He spent eating and talking with the disciples after HIs resurrection would have brought the Romans after Him yet again, but that was not the case because they could not see Him.

But, hey, you've at least explained the blinders you wear around your eyes to keep from seeing what you and some others here don't want to see, and that's ok. It's peripheral...

The "world" of unbelievers did not see Him ascending, and with Him coming in like manner, with no blood of His enemies on His garment, He will again come unseen to the unbelieving world, just as the angel stated. You, on the other hand, have your own wish for hos it should all play out contrary to what's said, and you are free to fall headlong into that nonsense.

MM
 

FollowerofShiloh

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You do indeed overlook so much, and by missing so much to lump it in together with what does not match, that only shows to us the errors in your thinking.

After the resurrection of Yahshuah, only believers saw and touched Him, so His ascent was a secret event that no unbelievers could see. With His coming for the Church in like manner, only believers will see Him. The text betrays all this, even though you choose to ignore it. If this were not the case, the weeks He spent eating and talking with the disciples after HIs resurrection would have brought the Romans after Him yet again, but that was not the case because they could not see Him.

But, hey, you've at least explained the blinders you wear around your eyes to keep from seeing what you and some others here don't want to see, and that's ok. It's peripheral...

The "world" of unbelievers did not see Him ascending, and with Him coming in like manner, with no blood of His enemies on His garment, He will again come unseen to the unbelieving world, just as the angel stated. You, on the other hand, have your own wish for hos it should all play out contrary to what's said, and you are free to fall headlong into that nonsense.

MM
Jesus told Mary He was going to His Father. So not much of a secret at all.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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If you believe in the Resurrection you believe in the Rapture. Same meaning same event.
There is a difference in meaning between the two distinct words G386 (from G450) and that of G726 (they do NOT have the "same meaning"):

--G386 - anastasis
"ἀνάστασις anástasis, an-as'-tas-is; from G450; a standing up again, i.e. (literally) a resurrection from death (individual, genitive case or by implication, (its author)),
or (figuratively) a (moral) recovery (of spiritual truth):—raised to life again, resurrection, rise from the dead, that should rise, rising again."


So, where it says, "the dead in Christ SHALL RISE [G450] first"--this is speaking of their bodily resurrection from the dead (i.e. "to stand again [on the earth]")... which precedes the point in time (however brief) from that which "THEN" will take place: "caught up [G726] TOGETHER..." (i.e. raptured / SNATCHED [G726]... "TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR");





--G726 - harpagēsometha
"ἁρπάζω harpázō, har-pad'-zo; from a derivative of G138; to seize (in various applications):—catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force)."

This word is used to refer to what we call "our Rapture"





Two VERY DISTINCT words and meanings.
 

Musicmaster

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Jesus told Mary He was going to His Father. So not much of a secret at all.
Well, at least I have revealed something to you that contradicts your previous statements in a very powerful way, and you don't know how to handle that correction, so you leave off with this meaningless comment that is not at all a way of dealing with what I said.

MM
 

FollowerofShiloh

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Well, at least I have revealed something to you that contradicts your previous statements in a very powerful way, and you don't know how to handle that correction, so you leave off with this meaningless comment that is not at all a way of dealing with what I said.

MM
I don't feel corrected because Jesus told Mary He was going to the Father and instructed Mary to tell the Disciples.
No Secret at all.


Jesus told us when He returns. He, even as KING having Authority in Heaven and on Earth, told us He would be with us to the End of the Age, the Second Coming.

So if there was a secret Rapture that would make Jesus a liar.
Pre-trib makes Jesus out to be a liar because it is based upon a ""secret rapture.""
 

Musicmaster

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I don't feel corrected because Jesus told Mary He was going to the Father and instructed Mary to tell the Disciples.
No Secret at all.


Jesus told us when He returns. He, even as KING having Authority in Heaven and on Earth, told us He would be with us to the End of the Age, the Second Coming.

So if there was a secret Rapture that would make Jesus a liar.
Pre-trib makes Jesus out to be a liar because it is based upon a ""secret rapture.""
I see you resisting the obvious, and that's ok. Lots of people do that. Yahshuah tarried for many days with the disciples after His resurrection, and before He ascended to go and prepare a place for us. Hs stated that emphatically, and all who don't like it, that's just how it is.

By calling it a "secret" rapture, the only portion of it that will be a secret is Yahshuah, for He will call us up to Him in the air, just as it is written...the part that you and others around here don't like. If He takes a moment to care about all the parts and portions you people don't like, then He has the power and time to do that. The people all around us will indeed notice our missing. Governments will likely downplay the event to defend against panic, but I don't think there will be enough being called up into the air with the Lord for it to be all that great a deal. Those movies showing billions of people disappearing, that likely won't be the case since most professing believers are not prepared and are not "watching" for His return. I don't know that piece of the puzzle. What we do know is that we are not reserved for wrath, and we know that the very beginning is indeed the wrath of the Lamb, and that our deliverance is a blessed hope where are not told one word anywhere that we will be on the brunt end of the wrath.

Do you not get that? Do you not understand what it means to be delivered FROM as opposed to delivered WITHIN? I would explain that to you, but you appear to WANT to be here experience the wrath of the Lamb. That Marine mentality is one that I don't possess. Nobody living through the death of half the world's population is going to feel as though they are tough and resilient. Every professing believer will either be shaking their fists at the heavens or crying out for deliverance, the time in which there is none EXCEPT for the Israelites who flee into the desert mountains over there in the area of Israel after Satan is booted out of Heaven and confined to this earth.

You're more brave than I am.

MM
 

Musicmaster

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So if there was a secret Rapture that would make Jesus a liar.
Pre-trib makes Jesus out to be a liar because it is based upon a ""secret rapture.""
As to this comment, no. Yahshuah is the One who first spoke of His coming for the Church that He established:

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

There are those who will point out that He gave no details as to WHEN He will come for us in that statement, which is true. Yes.

However, it's also true that He did not state that the Church will suffering being battered and killed up to that point of His coming for us, so there is silence about ANY details for WHEN that will happen...until His disciples revealed the "mystery" and in many other things stated that are a blessed hope and that give reason as to the purpose for the 70 heptads of Jacob's trouble, none of which involves the Church.

All you tough guys out there who want to be here on earth while the Lamb pours out His wrath upon the earth at the opening of the very first seal, go for it! I pray for you all...even now. Yes, you tough guys who think that you can ride it all out to the very end, you will indeed need all the prayer you can get. We should all pray for one another right here in this forum, but there are some stone hearted individuals here who simply will not. I do pray for you all because of my love for you in Yahshuah.

One thing, however, is that it doesn't take bravery to believe in the Lord to leave you here to suffer His wrath. That's foolhardy. I trust in the Lord to deliver us from His wrath that He intends for stiff-necked Israel and for the unbelieving world that hates Him, and in that hate they want to see what the world is like without Him holding back evil and wickedness. If ever you've seen rats eat each other, you will have seen just a small sampling of what it will be like in those days from the very beginning until either the day you die or see His coming upon a white horse, and then to set His feet down upon the Mount of Olives and begin His destruction of the enemies of Israel and the subjugation of the nations, peoples and tongues.

No, my friend, YOU are the liar...I am the liar...we ALL are liars by comparison!

Romabs 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

MM
 

FollowerofShiloh

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Jan 24, 2024
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I see you resisting the obvious, and that's ok. Lots of people do that. Yahshuah tarried for many days with the disciples after His resurrection, and before He ascended to go and prepare a place for us. Hs stated that emphatically, and all who don't like it, that's just how it is.

By calling it a "secret" rapture, the only portion of it that will be a secret is Yahshuah, for He will call us up to Him in the air, just as it is written...the part that you and others around here don't like. If He takes a moment to care about all the parts and portions you people don't like, then He has the power and time to do that. The people all around us will indeed notice our missing. Governments will likely downplay the event to defend against panic, but I don't think there will be enough being called up into the air with the Lord for it to be all that great a deal. Those movies showing billions of people disappearing, that likely won't be the case since most professing believers are not prepared and are not "watching" for His return. I don't know that piece of the puzzle. What we do know is that we are not reserved for wrath, and we know that the very beginning is indeed the wrath of the Lamb, and that our deliverance is a blessed hope where are not told one word anywhere that we will be on the brunt end of the wrath.

Do you not get that? Do you not understand what it means to be delivered FROM as opposed to delivered WITHIN? I would explain that to you, but you appear to WANT to be here experience the wrath of the Lamb. That Marine mentality is one that I don't possess. Nobody living through the death of half the world's population is going to feel as though they are tough and resilient. Every professing believer will either be shaking their fists at the heavens or crying out for deliverance, the time in which there is none EXCEPT for the Israelites who flee into the desert mountains over there in the area of Israel after Satan is booted out of Heaven and confined to this earth.

You're more brave than I am.

MM
Jesus said I go and will come back. In Matthew 24 He says He returns after the end of Tribulation. If He comes before that it would be a "secret."
 

FollowerofShiloh

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As to this comment, no. Yahshuah is the One who first spoke of His coming for the Church that He established:

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also.

There are those who will point out that He gave no details as to WHEN He will come for us in that statement, which is true. Yes.

However, it's also true that He did not state that the Church will suffering being battered and killed up to that point of His coming for us, so there is silence about ANY details for WHEN that will happen...until His disciples revealed the "mystery" and in many other things stated that are a blessed hope and that give reason as to the purpose for the 70 heptads of Jacob's trouble, none of which involves the Church.

All you tough guys out there who want to be here on earth while the Lamb pours out His wrath upon the earth at the opening of the very first seal, go for it! I pray for you all...even now. Yes, you tough guys who think that you can ride it all out to the very end, you will indeed need all the prayer you can get. We should all pray for one another right here in this forum, but there are some stone hearted individuals here who simply will not. I do pray for you all because of my love for you in Yahshuah.

One thing, however, is that it doesn't take bravery to believe in the Lord to leave you here to suffer His wrath. That's foolhardy. I trust in the Lord to deliver us from His wrath that He intends for stiff-necked Israel and for the unbelieving world that hates Him, and in that hate they want to see what the world is like without Him holding back evil and wickedness. If ever you've seen rats eat each other, you will have seen just a small sampling of what it will be like in those days from the very beginning until either the day you die or see His coming upon a white horse, and then to set His feet down upon the Mount of Olives and begin His destruction of the enemies of Israel and the subjugation of the nations, peoples and tongues.

No, my friend, YOU are the liar...I am the liar...we ALL are liars by comparison!

Romabs 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

MM
Jesus said I go and will come back. In Matthew 24 He says He returns after the end of Tribulation. If He comes before that it would be a "secret."
 

Musicmaster

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Jesus said I go and will come back. In Matthew 24 He says He returns after the end of Tribulation. If He comes before that it would be a "secret."
No secret at all since it was Paul who revealed the "mystery." Like I said, you can ignore, deny, gainsay it all as you so choose.

Besides, Matthew 24 is about the Jews and the second coming, not the rapture.

No wonder you can't see the forest for the trees...

MM
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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Paul's Day of the Lord includes Jesus coming in the ""CLOUDS""
Jesus Day of the Lord includes coming in the ""CLOUDS""
John's Day of the Lord in Revelation includes coming in the ""CLOUDS""
What about Daniel's... ?

"I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him." - Daniel 7:13

People will be able to see ""coming in the CLOUDS""
No Secret Rapture anywhere but in Fairy Tale Land.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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No secret at all since it was Paul who revealed the "mystery." [...]
Agreed.


[still, following "our Rapture," God "SHALL SEND to them STRONG DELUSION so that THEY [i.e. certain ones, not 100% of the people on earth] should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI..." - 2Th2:10,11-12]

Besides, Matthew 24 is about the Jews and the second coming, not the rapture.
Agreed!
 

FollowerofShiloh

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No secret at all since it was Paul who revealed the "mystery." Like I said, you can ignore, deny, gainsay it all as you so choose.

Besides, Matthew 24 is about the Jews and the second coming, not the rapture.

No wonder you can't see the forest for the trees...

MM
Paul revealed to those alive they would see their dead loved ones again is all he did.

To make what he said into a secret rapture is the same as taking Matthew 28:19 and Baptizing in the name of buffalos.

How do the Jews get from Earth to Heaven?

They are Raptured.
 

FollowerofShiloh

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What about Daniel's... ?

"I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him." - Daniel 7:13
Good question but it could be same reference and it matches Matthew 24:30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Musicmaster said:

Besides, Matthew 24 is about the Jews and the second coming, not the rapture.
How do the Jews get from Earth to Heaven?

They are Raptured.
Matthew 24:29-31 corresponds with Isaiah 27:9,12-13... it is NOT a "rapture-to-Heaven" passage (please see this context)


[... where v.9 corresponds with both Romans 11:27 and Daniel 9:24 (parts) regarding Israel... on the earth (and never "lifting off the earth [TO Heaven]")]
 

FollowerofShiloh

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Matthew 24:29-31 corresponds with Isaiah 27:9,12-13... it is NOT a "rapture-to-Heaven" passage (please see this context)


[... where v.9 corresponds with both Romans 11:27 and Daniel 9:24 (parts) regarding Israel... on the earth (and never "lifting off the earth")]
1 Thess 4:16-17 also is not going to Heaven just up to the clouds/air.

17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

That matches Isaiah, Revelation, Matthew 24.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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^ When I write "please see this CONTEXT," I expect the readers to do likewise with the other passages I bring up (or which are uder discussion).

I've repeatedly stated that 1Th4:17 is NOT a "stand-alone verse"... it is in the CONTEXT of Paul talking ABOUT 3:13!



...and v.4:13-14 is NOT simply... as you say...
Paul revealed to those alive they would see their dead loved ones again is all he did.
... but ALSO relates to 3:13's Subject
 

FollowerofShiloh

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^ When I write "please see this CONTEXT," I expect the readers to do likewise with the other passages I bring up.

I've repeatedly stated that 1Th4:17 is NOT a "stand-alone verse"... it is in the CONTEXT of Paul talking ABOUT 3:13!
13 in order that he may establish your hearts blameless in holiness before our God and Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus with all his holy ones.

αμην = Angels.

That matches Matthew 24 to a T!