these are hard sayings, who can hear it?

[cows_chewing_grass]

Jhn 6:66 From that [time] many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

The title of this thread comes from some people who were apparently following Jesus. He had just told them some really hard sayings and they couldn't handle it so they complained about it to one another.

Shortly following that Jesus talked about how his teachings are his spirit and they bring life, but even then the people did not want it and in verse 66 many of them left.

I think it is an interesting coincidence that this appears in the 66th verse of the 6th chapter, but that's not really the point here.

The point is that even in Jesus' day people found it difficult to follow some of his teachings. The verse says they were "disciples" which literally means "one who is disciplined".

It says that when they had reached their limit for the disciplines they were willing to go through for the sake of the kingdom of heaven, they turned back and stopped being "one who is disciplined".

I believe this desire to run away from discipline is at the heart of why so many people run away from the teachings of Jesus. Eternal life is at stake here. You can be sure God is not stupid enough to give a gift of that magnitude to spiritual wimps who pike out at the first sign of inconvenience.

When Jesus told the parable of the sower, he gave the example of the seed which feel on shallow ground and how it sprang up quickly, but because it did not have deep roots it quickly withered when Jesus asked them to do something they found difficult.

I think Christians need to be developing deep roots, and that will only come as a result of confronting the really hard teachings of Jesus, particularly those that deal with denying self, forsaking all, seeking the kingdom of heaven first, not doing things to be seen of others, accepting criticism when we are wrong and giving fair criticism when we are right, etc...

So I'll post it again, a list of some of the commands of Jesus from the gospels. Teachings which he said on many occasions that he expects his followers to (at least try to) obey.

Any comments?

The Top Forty 1. Obey my commandments - John 14:15 , John 14:21 , John 14:23 ; 2 John 6

2. Love God and others - John 15:12 , Matthew 22:37-40

3. Go and preach to all the world - Mark 16:15 , Matthew 28:19

4. Don't delay, do it now - John 4:35 , John 9:4 , John 12:35

5. Take nothing for your journey - Luke 9:3 , Luke 10:4

6. Don't work for food - John 6:27 , Matthew 6:24-33 , Luke 12:29

7. Work for me & my kingdom - Matthew 11:28-30 , Luke 12:31

8. Sell all that you own - Luke 11:41 , Luke 12:33 , Luke 18:22

9. Don't store things that you're not using - Matthew 6:19

10. Don't charge for what you do - Matthew 10:8

11. Give to God what belongs to God - Luke 20:25 , Matthew 22:21

12. Don't waste time on argumentative people - Matthew 7:6

13. Invite the poor to eat with you - Luke 14:12-14

14. Give to anyone who asks - Luke 6:30 , Mark 6:37

15. If you pray, fast, or give, do it secretly - Matthew 6:1-11

16. Don't use vain repetitions when praying - Matthew 6:7

17. Don't advertise healings - Matthew 9:30 , Matthew 12:16

18. Take the lowest position in meetings - Luke 14:8-10

19. Don't be called Father, Mister, etc. - Matthew 23:9-10

20. Beware of hypocrisy and greed - Luke 12:1 , 15

21. Take up your cross and follow me - Mark 8:34

22. Live in me, and live in my love - John 15:4 , 9

23. Eat whatever people give you - Luke 10:7

24. Rejoice when you are persecuted - Luke 6:23

25. Move to another city if persecuted - Matthew 10:23

26. Love, bless, and pray for your enemies - Luke 6:27-29

27. Do to others as you'd have them do to you - Luke 6:31

28. Be agreeable with your adversaries - Luke 12:58 , Matthew 5:25

29. Forgive others - Mark 11:25-26 , Matthew 6:12 , Luke 6:37

30. Cut off your hand if it offends you - Mark 9:43

31. Don't be afraid of people - Luke 12:4-5

32. Let the dead bury the dead - Matthew 8:22

33. Rebuke a brother if he sins - Luke 17:3 , Matthew 18:15-17

34. When you judge, do it fairly - John 7:24

35. You must be born again- John 3:3 , Luke 18:17 , Mark 10:15

36. Don't make promises for any reason - Matthew 5:34-37

37. Don't sell things in God's house - John 2:16

38. Don't forbid others to preach Christ - Luke 9:50

39. Teach all nations to obey these rules - Matthew 28:20

40. When you have done all these things, say, "We have only done that which was our duty to do." - Luke 17:10

 

[Seza]

Well said well said. Yes it is of importance to develop deep roots. The bible encourages perseverance. Nothing is impossible when we have the Lord. He gave us the holy spirit to help us on our journey.

 

[loveschild]

Thank you!

 

[livingbygrace]

The title of this thread comes from some people who were apparently following Jesus. He had just told them some really hard sayings and they couldn't handle it so they complained about it to one another.

Shortly following that Jesus talked about how his teachings are his spirit and they bring life, but even then the people did not want it and in verse 66 many of them left.

I think it is an interesting coincidence that this appears in the 66th verse of the 6th chapter, but that's not really the point here.

The point is that even in Jesus' day people found it difficult to follow some of his teachings. The verse says they were "disciples" which literally means "one who is disciplined".

It says that when they had reached their limit for the disciplines they were willing to go through for the sake of the kingdom of heaven, they turned back and stopped being "one who is disciplined".

I believe this desire to run away from discipline is at the heart of why so many people run away from the teachings of Jesus. Eternal life is at stake here. You can be sure God is not stupid enough to give a gift of that magnitude to spiritual wimps who pike out at the first sign of inconvenience.

When Jesus told the parable of the sower, he gave the example of the seed which feel on shallow ground and how it sprang up quickly, but because it did not have deep roots it quickly withered when Jesus asked them to do something they found difficult.

I think Christians need to be developing deep roots, and that will only come as a result of confronting the really hard teachings of Jesus, particularly those that deal with denying self, forsaking all, seeking the kingdom of heaven first, not doing things to be seen of others, accepting criticism when we are wrong and giving fair criticism when we are right, etc...

So I'll post it again, a list of some of the commands of Jesus from the gospels. Teachings which he said on many occasions that he expects his followers to (at least try to) obey.

Any comments?

The Top Forty 1. Obey my commandments - John 14:15 , John 14:21 , John 14:23 ; 2 John 6

2. Love God and others - John 15:12 , Matthew 22:37-40

3. Go and preach to all the world - Mark 16:15 , Matthew 28:19

4. Don't delay, do it now - John 4:35 , John 9:4 , John 12:35

5. Take nothing for your journey - Luke 9:3 , Luke 10:4

6. Don't work for food - John 6:27 , Matthew 6:24-33 , Luke 12:29

7. Work for me & my kingdom - Matthew 11:28-30 , Luke 12:31

8. Sell all that you own - Luke 11:41 , Luke 12:33 , Luke 18:22

9. Don't store things that you're not using - Matthew 6:19

10. Don't charge for what you do - Matthew 10:8

11. Give to God what belongs to God - Luke 20:25 , Matthew 22:21

12. Don't waste time on argumentative people - Matthew 7:6

13. Invite the poor to eat with you - Luke 14:12-14

14. Give to anyone who asks - Luke 6:30 , Mark 6:37

15. If you pray, fast, or give, do it secretly - Matthew 6:1-11

16. Don't use vain repetitions when praying - Matthew 6:7

17. Don't advertise healings - Matthew 9:30 , Matthew 12:16

18. Take the lowest position in meetings - Luke 14:8-10

19. Don't be called Father, Mister, etc. - Matthew 23:9-10

20. Beware of hypocrisy and greed - Luke 12:1 , 15

21. Take up your cross and follow me - Mark 8:34

22. Live in me, and live in my love - John 15:4 , 9

23. Eat whatever people give you - Luke 10:7

24. Rejoice when you are persecuted - Luke 6:23

25. Move to another city if persecuted - Matthew 10:23

26. Love, bless, and pray for your enemies - Luke 6:27-29

27. Do to others as you'd have them do to you - Luke 6:31

28. Be agreeable with your adversaries - Luke 12:58 , Matthew 5:25

29. Forgive others - Mark 11:25-26 , Matthew 6:12 , Luke 6:37

30. Cut off your hand if it offends you - Mark 9:43

31. Don't be afraid of people - Luke 12:4-5

32. Let the dead bury the dead - Matthew 8:22

33. Rebuke a brother if he sins - Luke 17:3 , Matthew 18:15-17

34. When you judge, do it fairly - John 7:24

35. You must be born again- John 3:3 , Luke 18:17 , Mark 10:15

36. Don't make promises for any reason - Matthew 5:34-37

37. Don't sell things in God's house - John 2:16

38. Don't forbid others to preach Christ - Luke 9:50

39. Teach all nations to obey these rules - Matthew 28:20

40. When you have done all these things, say, "We have only done that which was our duty to do." - Luke 17:10

This is why I told you that no-one can come to me unless the Father draws him
From this time many of his disciples tiurned back and no longer followed him

I think it is interseting what made many turn back. It wasn't demands for them to uphold laws/commandments, they would have been used to that from their religious leaders.
John 6 is not a list of commandments/ laws that must be obeyed, but rather some hard teaching that the people could not understand

Example

Then they asked him
'What must we do TO DO THE WORKS GOD REQUIRES?
Jesus answered.
The work of God is this, to believe in the one He has sent. verses 28&29

Would people brought up believing they had to strive to obey the written law understand what is meant here?

But in verse 29 Jesus gave them the answer to salvation and victory in the Christian life.
Remember the question
WHAT MUST WE DO TO DO THE WORKS GOD REQUIRES

But many would reject such teaching along with
No-one can come to me unless the Father draws him
Why would they reject this teaching?

It goes to the heart of victory with God, and is an offence to so many

The victory is by faith in Christ and the sanctification of the Spirit, therefore there is no room for boasting or the individual taking any credit, the true offence of the cross.

 

[cows_chewing_grass]

The work of God is this, to believe in the one He has sent. verses 28&29

Fair enough, lbg. Let me ask you this. If Jesus says "Therefore whoever he be of you who forsakes not all he has ,cannot be my follower." how do you suggest we should our belief in in response to this teaching?

Remember, your point is that we must show our belief in him.

Would people brought up believing they had to strive to obey the written law understand what is meant here?

Is there any reason why they could not understand? Jesus usually referred to an inability to understand his words as spiritual stubbornness rather than something that was genuinely too difficult to understand. He often expressed surprise that people didn't get what he was saying, as though he expected they would.

I think spiritual stubborness is what Jesus was dealing with and I think it is what I am dealing with here at the moment, as well. The verses say that the disciples murmered amongst one another and decided not to follow him any more. That is not a simple lack of understanding.

Seriously, lbg, in order to support your doctrine that Jesus never really meant for us to seriously consider his commands and obey them, you are defending disciples who turned away from Jesus. That is the fruit of your argument.

But many would reject such teaching along with
No-one can come to me unless the Father draws him
Why would they reject this teaching?

The teaching in question is that to do the works of the father is to belive the father, right? So, how do people SHOW that they believe Jesus? For example, if I tell you to move off the train tracks because a train is coming, how do you show if you believe me or not? Do you argue with me about how love is not about obeying commands and that you can believe me just find without moving off the tracks because you have love in your heart?

That is essentially your argument when it comes to the commands of Jesus, lbg. This "jesus knows my heart" teaching of yours requires no faith at all. Even atheists are good to theri families.

The victory is by faith in Christ and the sanctification of the Spirit, therefore there is no room for boasting or the individual taking any credit, the true offence of the cross.

More religious jargon. You are the only one talking about boasting here, lbg. I've only ever advocated exactly what Jesus did; obedience to his commands.

Luke 6:46 "Why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me". Is Jesus wrong? Is he suggesting that he wants people to boast about their obedience? See how it's all just a convenient doctrine for people to ignore the dicsiplines he taught?

You convince yourself that obedience is a bad word. If you try to obey it means you are being proud and working your way to heaven or boasting of your good works, so you just ignore the disciplie altogether and spout platitudes about beliveing in Jesus and the santification of the spirit.

Yet all the while Jesus is standing there asking you ,"why won't you do what I say? You call me lord yet you stubbornly dig your heals in any time I tell you to do something, and then you have the nerve to blame ME for your rebellion by claiming that I taught that you are not "under the law" anymore"?

Seriously lbg, your doctrine truely is shocking.

 

[livingbygrace]

Fair enough, lbg. Let me ask you this. If Jesus says "Therefore whoever he be of you who forsakes not all he has ,cannot be my follower." how do you suggest we should our belief in in response to this teaching?

Remember, your point is that we must show our belief in him.





Is there any reason why they could not understand? Jesus usually referred to an inability to understand his words as spiritual stubbornness rather than something that was genuinely too difficult to understand. He often expressed surprise that people didn't get what he was saying, as though he expected they would.

I think spiritual stubborness is what Jesus was dealing with and I think it is what I am dealing with here at the moment, as well. The verses say that the disciples murmered amongst one another and decided not to follow him any more. That is not a simple lack of understanding.

Seriously, lbg, in order to support your doctrine that Jesus never really meant for us to seriously consider his commands and obey them, you are defending disciples who turned away from Jesus. That is the fruit of your argument.

ccg

I am suprised at you for making statements concerning my words that you must know are false.

Please show me where I have stated that Christ's commands should not be upheld in our lives. But unlike you I do not believe they are followed by looking to the literal letter of what is written and striving to obey that literal letter. As I have made this abundantlky clear to you on another thread I wonder why you keep saying what you do.


The teaching in question is that to do the works of the father is to belive the father, right? So, how do people SHOW that they believe Jesus? For example, if I tell you to move off the train tracks because a train is coming, how do you show if you believe me or not? Do you argue with me about how love is not about obeying commands and that you can believe me just find without moving off the tracks because you have love in your heart?


Why can you not see that love fulfills the law?

That is essentially your argument when it comes to the commands of Jesus, lbg. This "jesus knows my heart" teaching of yours requires no faith at all. Even atheists are good to theri families.

I don't understand this thinking



More religious jargon. You are the only one talking about boasting here, lbg. I've only ever advocated exactly what Jesus did; obedience to his commands.

Luke 6:46 "Why do you call me Lord, but do not obey me". Is Jesus wrong? Is he suggesting that he wants people to boast about their obedience? See how it's all just a convenient doctrine for people to ignore the dicsiplines he taught?



You convince yourself that obedience is a bad word. If you try to obey it means you are being proud and working your way to heaven or boasting of your good works, so you just ignore the disciplie altogether and spout platitudes about beliveing in Jesus and the santification of the spirit.

Again I wonder why you are saying things that you KNOW are not true according to what I have written on another thread. And youb seem to be getting more upset all vthe time at what I say

Well I will sum up what I have been saying. Man in himself cannot obey. The true state of man can be read in Rom 3:10-19

How can anyone in that state obey in themselves by looking to the literal letter commandments or laws that are good?

Spurgeon said that it was Christ's responsibility to change us not our own, I agree with this.

WAS the Apostle Paul obediant by looking to the written law/.commandment of what is written asnd striving to obey it? No. Obediance comes by faith

ccg
If on;ly in your heart you could understand one verse of scripture and its meaning we would not be havinmg this conversation

Do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not atr all! Rather we uphold the law
Rom 3:31

You cabnnpot change yourself or bring yourself to true obediance, only God can do that tnhrough his son and the Spirity. And ONLY if you let him can you truly obey the commands of Christ. Why is this so hard to accept?


Yet all the while Jesus is standing there asking you ,"why won't you do what I say? You call me lord yet you stubbornly dig your heals in any time I tell you to do something, and then you have the nerve to blame ME for your rebellion by claiming that I taught that you are not "under the law" anymore"?

When did I claim you taught me I am not under the law anymore? Your words are becoming harsher, unkinder, and more untruthful the longer this discussion goes on so I will leave it there

Seriously lbg, your doctrine truely is shocking.

But this is the true dividing line in Christianity. Many in their heart want a righteousness of their own and they will always be offended by the truth of victory

 

[cows_chewing_grass]

Please show me where I have stated that Christ's commands should not be upheld in our lives.

Man in himself cannot obey.

You've made it abundantly clear that this is YOUR teaching, lbg, that man "cannot" obey. In the context it means the exact same thing as man "should not" obey. You referred to any attempt to obey as a show of self rightiousness and boasting. Your whole argument pushes for people not to even try.

Paul never said that we cannot obey. Jesus never said that we cannot obey. In fact I have been quoting quite consistently Jesus' own words of incredulity that people are NOT obeying him.

Luke 6:46 "why do you call me lord, but do not obey me"?

So we do we believe, lbg. You who says we cannot obey, or Jesus who says we should? See the words are right there in front of you. "why do you not obey me" but something in your spirit is stopping you from just accepting that.

Instead you continually turn to something Paul said about OT law and you slap that on top of the teachings of Jesus and call it all the same thing. But okay let's pretend that Paul really was saying that we cannot and should not even try to obey the specific commands of Jesus. Who is your savior in a situation where Paul is clearly contradicting Jesus?

Why can you not see that love fulfills the law?

I never said it doesn't but then we need to ask ourselves why Jesus bothered to give so many OTHER commands? Could it be that he was being specific about HOW to fulfill the law of love?

really lbg, you are trying very hard to ignore the reason for Jesus even giving any other commands besides "love god and your neighbor". Why is that? Why is it that all the commands about discipline are not to be obeyed?

I don't understand this thinking

Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

This quote from Jesus follows a list of several commands about HOW we are to show love. You earlier boasted about how much love and sacrifice you have for your mother and that "love in your heart" is the basis for your arguments that we don't need to obey any of the commands of Jesus for HOW to love one another.

I suggested that this "love in my heart" doctrine of yours had already caused you to ignore one of Jesus' teachings about not boasting of your good works. Even you youself admitted to feeling like it was blowing your own horn, but you still did it anyway, didn't you?

Was there any "love in your heart" for how Jesus may have felt about your boasting when he said NOT to do such things?

But even then, the point of the above verse is that there is nothing special about loving those who love you. Real love is able to reach beyond friendly and family ties. That is what forsaking all, helping the poor, and going into all the world to preach the gospel is all about, you know all those OTHER commands of Jesus about HOW to fulfill the law of love which you say men should not even try to obey.

Can you see how this "god knows me heart therefore I don't need to obey" doctrine has caused you to ignore some of the most important lessons of the kingdom of heaven recorded in the gospels?

Again I wonder why you are saying things that you KNOW are not true according to what I have written on another thread. And youb seem to be getting more upset all vthe time at what I say

I accused you of thinking of obedience as a bad word and I stand by that, but I don't see that it is a false accusation. You said that attempts to obey the specific commands of Jesus were akin to self righteousness. Are you retracting that statement now?

Spurgeon said that it was Christ's responsibility to change us not our own, I agree with this.

Is it also Jesus' responsibility to repent for us? Cause that was another specific command of Jesus, lbg. Your faith seems to be in anyone but Christ, and all because he told you to obey. Jesus asks "why won't you obey me" and your answer is "well spurgeon said it was YOUR responsibility for me to obey". Seriously lbg, who is your faith in?

When did I claim you taught me I am not under the law anymore? Your words are becoming harsher, unkinder, and more untruthful the longer this discussion goes on so I will leave it there

Well, you can think of me as a big fat meani head all you like (at least you've not called me demon possessed like Jesus was accussed of, well, not yet, anyway ) but in the end the facts still remain.

Jesus obviously expected obedience to his specific commands and you are arguing tooth and nail against that. Why, lbg? What is it about going into all the world to preach the gospel that has you so rattled?

 

[livingbygrace]

You've made it abundantly clear that this is YOUR teaching, lbg, that man "cannot" obey. In the context it means the exact same thing as man "should not" obey. You referred to any attempt to obey as a show of self rightiousness and boasting. Your whole argument pushes for people not to even try.

OK in weakness I will reply to this. If man could obey the/ law Commandments by looking to them and striving to obey them, why did Jesus die on the cross?

And why was the spirit given to belioevers?

Paul never said that we cannot obey. Jesus never said that we cannot obey. In fact I have been quoting quite consistently Jesus' own words of incredulity that people are NOT obeying him.

Luke 6:46 "why do you call me lord, but do not obey me"?

And as I have already quoted good works according to Christ comes from believing in him
And according to Paul obediance comes from faith
But of course this must cut out boasting and pride in self achievement which offends many

So we do we believe, lbg. You who says we cannot obey, or Jesus who says we should? See the words are right there in front of you. "why do you not obey me" but something in your spirit is stopping you from just accepting that.

On the contrary

Do we then nullify the law/commandments by this faith? NOT AT ALL! RATHER WE UPHOLD THE LAW
Rom 3:31

Instead you continually turn to something Paul said about OT law and you slap that on top of the teachings of Jesus and call it all the same thing. But okay let's pretend that Paul really was saying that we cannot and should not even try to obey the specific commands of Jesus. Who is your savior in a situation where Paul is clearly contradicting Jesus?

Do n't you believe Paul was given his message directly from Christ?


I never said it doesn't but then we need to ask ourselves why Jesus bothered to give so many OTHER commands? Could it be that he was being specific about HOW to fulfill the law of love?

Exactly. His commands were all about love.

Love God and love your neighbour

really lbg, you are trying very hard to ignore the reason for Jesus even giving any other commands besides "love god and your neighbor". Why is that? Why is it that all the commands about discipline are not to be obeyed?

Please read my questions


Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

This quote from Jesus follows a list of several commands about HOW we are to show love. You earlier boasted about how much love and sacrifice you have for your mother and that "love in your heart" is the basis for your arguments that we don't need to obey any of the commands of Jesus for HOW to love one another.

I suggested that this "love in my heart" doctrine of yours had already caused you to ignore one of Jesus' teachings about not boasting of your good works. Even you youself admitted to feeling like it was blowing your own horn, but you still did it anyway, didn't you?

I do sincerely wonder why you are replying in this way. Obviously you are greatly offended by what I am saying. As I told you, I in ,my heart sought no credit for waiting on my dying mother, shouldn't all Christians do the same for a loved one?
But I wonder if you were offended by the truth spoken of. The law being fulfiolled by love, not striving to look to the literal cpommand for obediance

Was there any "love in your heart" for how Jesus may have felt about your boasting when he said NOT to do such things?

But even then, the point of the above verse is that there is nothing special about loving those who love you. Real love is able to reach beyond friendly and family ties. That is what forsaking all, helping the poor, and going into all the world to preach the gospel is all about, you know all those OTHER commands of Jesus about HOW to fulfill the law of love which you say men should not even try to obey.

I say rely on Christ and the Spirit and I repeat this offends many

Can you see how this "god knows me heart therefore I don't need to obey" doctrine has caused you to ignore some of the most important lessons of the kingdom of heaven recorded in the gospels?

I keep repeating doctrine. Faith in Christ and a reliance on the Holy Spirit and this keeps offending it seems

I accused you of thinking of obedience as a bad word and I stand by that, but I don't see that it is a false accusation. You said that attempts to obey the specific commands of Jesus were akin to self righteousness. Are you retracting that statement now?

False again. The commandments of Christ are far better observed by the doctrine of faith in him

Is it also Jesus' responsibility to repent for us? Cause that was another specific command of Jesus, lbg. Your faith seems to be in anyone but Christ, and all because he told you to obey. Jesus asks "why won't you obey me" and your answer is "well spurgeon said it was YOUR responsibility for me to obey". Seriously lbg, who is your faith in?

We repent for the spirit convicts us of our sin. As for spurgeon have you reached the multitudes he did?
Is it not possible that he understood truth you do not ccg?


Well, you can think of me as a big fat meani head all you like (at least you've not called me demon possessed like Jesus was accussed of, well, not yet, anyway ) but in the end the facts still remain.

Why was Jesus slandered by the religious leaders of his day? They were a proud people who wanted a righteousness of their own. According to striving to obey the written law/commands

Jesus obviously expected obedience to his specific commands and you are arguing tooth and nail against that.

Jesus told us how obediance was to be achieved, as did Paul faith in him, but you seem to reject this


Why, lbg? What is it about going into all the world to preach the gospel that has you so rattled?

What has our discussion got to do with going onto all the world and preaching the Gospel? I pray for more labourers.

 

[livingbygrace]

ccg

If someone took something of yours, would you in your heart want to demand it back, or would you be happy for them to keep what they took?

Would you give anything to anyone who asked you and in your heart not do it grudginmgly and never expect anything back?

If you only had the clothes you stood up in, and someone took your coat, would you give him your shirt also without a hint of resentment in your heart?

If a total stranger asked you to carry a heavy load one mile, would you offer to carry it two with only pure joy in your heart?

Have you ever fasted and told anyone you are fasting, or in your heart wanted people to know? If you have according to Jesus you are a hypocrite

Have you ever looked at the speck in someone elses eye?

Have you ever looked at a woman with lust in your eye?

If someonme slapped you on one cheek, would you happily turn the other with nothing but love in you for the person who struck you?

If anyone persecuted you and falsley said all kinds of evil things against you because you are a Christian, would you rejoice in your heart? Would you leap up and down with heartfelt joy?

Have you ever been angry wityh your brother?

Have you ever called your brother a fool?

Do you love people who are unkind to you as much as you love your friends?

Have you ever givenm to the needy and in your heart wanted others to know you have? According to Jesus you are a hypocrite if you have

Have you in your heart ever judged another?

And would you answer all of the above honestly?

And if you love God greatly and want to serve him the rest of your life, how does it make you feel when you fall to obey the above commands?

And if you don't perfectly keep them, why don't you? You keep stressing we should obey Christ's commands and can obey them

And you believe thew above commands can be obeyed by looking to the written law of these commands and striving to obey them. They can't!

They are all about, loving God and loving others.
You can strive all you want to but without love you cannot succeed

Hence, love fulfills the law

 

[cows_chewing_grass]

OK in weakness I will reply to this. If man could obey the/ law Commandments by looking to them and striving to obey them, why did Jesus die on the cross?

Can you see how you are still arguing against obedience to Jesus? Whatever the "correct" answer is to your question doesn't really matter. The point is "don't obey Jesus". It seems your argument is that if we can't be absolutely perfect in how we follow his commands, then we shouldn't even try at all, because after all he died on the cross to forgive our rebellion against obedience. What a terrible way to view his sacrifice.

And as I have already quoted good works according to Christ comes from believing in him

I asked you to to explain what "belive in him" means when it comes to specific commands like those you listed in your previous post. You've not answered that question.

And according to Paul obediance comes from faith
But of course this must cut out boasting and pride in self achievement which offends many

Once again you are brining up an argument that has nothing to do with either what I or what Jesus said about obedience and I've already addressed it in my previous post. However, I believe you continue to raise it as part of your disobedience doctrine, because you have convinced yourself that any attempt to even try to follow the specific commnads of Jesus constitutes "boasting" and "pride".

Are you seriously sayign that you simply cannot obey Jesus just because he is your lord and savior? that you could only do so as a way to glorify yourself? Lbg, that really is NOT a legitimate case against obedience to Jesus and neither paul, Jesus, or I have made that case; only you.

do sincerely wonder why you are replying in this way. Obviously you are greatly offended by what I am saying. As I told you, I in ,my heart sought no credit for waiting on my dying mother, shouldn't all Christians do the same for a loved one?
But I wonder if you were offended by the truth spoken of. The law being fulfiolled by love, not striving to look to the literal cpommand for obediance

What "way" am I replying, lbg? Anyway, I think you should probably just stick to the relevant issues.

For example, you say that you "heart sought no credit" and yet you still posted that stuff about how loving you were anyway. You could have easily used that example as a generic example without making a big deal about how it was you personally, or you could have said that it was an experience your close friend and and you felt it was a good exmaple of what you were talking about.

You knew it was blowing your own horn, but you did it anyway with the disclaimer that you didn't really want to blow your own horn, but in the end, the horn was still blown, wasn't it? My argument to you at the time, and which still is, is that because of your doctrine that it's okay to disobey god as long as you are able to convince yourself that you are doing it in a loving way (with appropriate disclaimers that you are NOT really disobeying) you din't consider the options I listed. I suggested that someone really serious about obeying our lord and master would try to find a way to get the example across without ignoring the spirit of the command.

Also notice how you changed the topic in the second sentence. The issue with me was never about NOT showing love for our family and I think you know that, yet you ask me a question as though I was offended that you showed love to your mother. That is called dishonesty, lbg and anytime people start twisting arguments around like that I've said something right.

I say rely on Christ and the Spirit and I repeat this offends many

More religious jargon. I don't think you will find a single professing Christian in the world who would say that he/she feels offended by that comment (i.e. rely on Christ and the spirt).

This discussion is about what that means in practical terms. Any so-called Christian can prance around spouting sweet platitudes about faith and believing, but we are talking about APPLYING that faith in the context of Jesus giving a command. Do you believe enough to obey? Do you rely enough to do what Jesus said to do just because he said to do it? What you've been telling us on this forum is that you do NOT believe Jesus expects you to obey and that doing so would not only be self rightious, proud, and boastful, but that any attempt to obey Jesus would be a slap in the face to Jesus dying on the cross so that we may have grace for areas in our life where we fall short in our attempts to obey him!

Seriously lbg, your understanding of obedience and grace are really messed up.

I keep repeating doctrine. Faith in Christ and a reliance on the Holy Spirit and this keeps offending it seems

Yeah, that's because your doctrine doesn't DO anything. It just sounds nice. That's it. You have a nice comfortable doctrine that sounds very spiritual at the same time it expects nothing of you in any practical way. NO obedience required because you've got love in your heart. Well, you do take care of your immediate family, which is something, I suppose, but then again Jesus himself said there's nothing special about loving those who love you back. Even the worst people in the world help those who help them. Remember that quote I posted for you about that? You must not have seen it.

False again. The commandments of Christ are far better observed by the doctrine of faith in him

See, more nice sounding jargon. You've got commandments in there. You've got "observed" and "doctrine" and "faith and you've even included "commandments". Wow that sure does sound spiritual. Well, that is, until Jesus asks you to actually DO something about it, and then you've got a whole list of reasons why it would be wrong of you to follow his directions, because, as we all know, when Jesus says "obey me" what he really means is "don't obey me if you have love in your heart".

lol wait I've just gotta add a nother comment here. "The command of Christ are far better observed by the doctrine of faith in him"? See, what I am talking about is actually DOING what he said to do. Like, when he says "do this" or "don't do that" that we literally "do this" or "don't do that" as he instructed.

But you are saying that YOUR argument is FAR BETTER for obeying Jesus's commands? But you said it would be self rightous for people to even try to obey Jesus commands. How is it far better to ignore his commands on the basis that you've got issues with pride, than it is to actually DO what he said out of loyalty?

More screwy logic that, in the end, only serves to justify rebellion.

We repent for the spirit convicts us of our sin. As for spurgeon have you reached the multitudes he did?

Well, how many people do I need to "reach" before I have the truth that surgeon did? Do you have like a chart or something on your wall listing the various levels of understanding and how many people one needs to "reach" for each level? Uh, what if spurgeon "reached" more people than Jesus did back in his day? Maybe we've been following the wrong guy all along? Truely, you do know how to point people in the right direction, don't you?

Why was Jesus slandered by the religious leaders of his day? They were a proud people who wanted a righteousness of their own. According to striving to obey the written law/commands

Sure, but is sure as heck fire wasn't JESUS'S commands they were trying to make themselves rightous over. It was their own warped ideas of what it meant to use religion to make themselves look better. Personally, I think this is just one more example on your list of reasons not to obey Jesus, but it doesn't even make any sense in the context.

Why would the pharisees slander Jesus if it was HIS rules they were trying to obey? Obviously your logic, once again, does not make sense, but that is what will happen ANY time you try to find reasons to disobey Jesus when Jesus himself said "the foolish people hear my words, but do not obey them". (matthew 7)

Well, according to your most recent post we can all see that you've definitely heard his commands...

Jesus told us how obediance was to be achieved, as did Paul faith in him, but you seem to reject this

What did Jesus say about obedience? You've not posted a single thiing from him about HOW we are meant to obey him. Would you mind doing so now? Thanks.

What has our discussion got to do with going onto all the world and preaching the Gospel? I pray for more labourers.

Seriously, lbg. You wonder why I find it more and more difficult to think of you as a genuine Christian when you have the nerve to ask a question like this in the context of obedience to Jesus. Are you aware that Jesus commanded ALL his followers to be full time evangelists of SOME KIND? Sure we all have different responsibilities or WAYS of preacing and teaching, but we are still commanded to go into all the world to do it.

It is interesting that your response is to my question "what has got you so rattled about just doing it"? Your response, apparently, is to pretend that it has nothing to do with this topic when that could not be further from the truth. Gosh, when it comes to obedience you sure are stubborn about making white black and black white.

 

[livingbygrace]

Can you see how you are still arguing against obedience to Jesus? Whatever the "correct" answer is to your question doesn't really matter. The point is "don't obey Jesus". It seems your argument is that if we can't be absolutely perfect in how we follow his commands, then we shouldn't even try at all, because after all he died on the cross to forgive our rebellion against obedience. What a terrible way to view his sacrifice.



I asked you to to explain what "belive in him" means when it comes to specific commands like those you listed in your previous post. You've not answered that question.



Once again you are brining up an argument that has nothing to do with either what I or what Jesus said about obedience and I've already addressed it in my previous post. However, I believe you continue to raise it as part of your disobedience doctrine, because you have convinced yourself that any attempt to even try to follow the specific commnads of Jesus constitutes "boasting" and "pride".

Are you seriously sayign that you simply cannot obey Jesus just because he is your lord and savior? that you could only do so as a way to glorify yourself? Lbg, that really is NOT a legitimate case against obedience to Jesus and neither paul, Jesus, or I have made that case; only you.



What "way" am I replying, lbg? Anyway, I think you should probably just stick to the relevant issues.

For example, you say that you "heart sought no credit" and yet you still posted that stuff about how loving you were anyway. You could have easily used that example as a generic example without making a big deal about how it was you personally, or you could have said that it was an experience your close friend and and you felt it was a good exmaple of what you were talking about.

You knew it was blowing your own horn, but you did it anyway with the disclaimer that you didn't really want to blow your own horn, but in the end, the horn was still blown, wasn't it? My argument to you at the time, and which still is, is that because of your doctrine that it's okay to disobey god as long as you are able to convince yourself that you are doing it in a loving way (with appropriate disclaimers that you are NOT really disobeying) you din't consider the options I listed. I suggested that someone really serious about obeying our lord and master would try to find a way to get the example across without ignoring the spirit of the command.

Also notice how you changed the topic in the second sentence. The issue with me was never about NOT showing love for our family and I think you know that, yet you ask me a question as though I was offended that you showed love to your mother. That is called dishonesty, lbg and anytime people start twisting arguments around like that I've said something right.



More religious jargon. I don't think you will find a single professing Christian in the world who would say that he/she feels offended by that comment (i.e. rely on Christ and the spirt).

This discussion is about what that means in practical terms. Any so-called Christian can prance around spouting sweet platitudes about faith and believing, but we are talking about APPLYING that faith in the context of Jesus giving a command. Do you believe enough to obey? Do you rely enough to do what Jesus said to do just because he said to do it? What you've been telling us on this forum is that you do NOT believe Jesus expects you to obey and that doing so would not only be self rightious, proud, and boastful, but that any attempt to obey Jesus would be a slap in the face to Jesus dying on the cross so that we may have grace for areas in our life where we fall short in our attempts to obey him!

Seriously lbg, your understanding of obedience and grace are really messed up.



Yeah, that's because your doctrine doesn't DO anything. It just sounds nice. That's it. You have a nice comfortable doctrine that sounds very spiritual at the same time it expects nothing of you in any practical way. NO obedience required because you've got love in your heart. Well, you do take care of your immediate family, which is something, I suppose, but then again Jesus himself said there's nothing special about loving those who love you back. Even the worst people in the world help those who help them. Remember that quote I posted for you about that? You must not have seen it.



See, more nice sounding jargon. You've got commandments in there. You've got "observed" and "doctrine" and "faith and you've even included "commandments". Wow that sure does sound spiritual. Well, that is, until Jesus asks you to actually DO something about it, and then you've got a whole list of reasons why it would be wrong of you to follow his directions, because, as we all know, when Jesus says "obey me" what he really means is "don't obey me if you have love in your heart".

lol wait I've just gotta add a nother comment here. "The command of Christ are far better observed by the doctrine of faith in him"? See, what I am talking about is actually DOING what he said to do. Like, when he says "do this" or "don't do that" that we literally "do this" or "don't do that" as he instructed.

But you are saying that YOUR argument is FAR BETTER for obeying Jesus's commands? But you said it would be self rightous for people to even try to obey Jesus commands. How is it far better to ignore his commands on the basis that you've got issues with pride, than it is to actually DO what he said out of loyalty?

More screwy logic that, in the end, only serves to justify rebellion.



Well, how many people do I need to "reach" before I have the truth that surgeon did? Do you have like a chart or something on your wall listing the various levels of understanding and how many people one needs to "reach" for each level? Uh, what if spurgeon "reached" more people than Jesus did back in his day? Maybe we've been following the wrong guy all along? Truely, you do know how to point people in the right direction, don't you?



Sure, but is sure as heck fire wasn't JESUS'S commands they were trying to make themselves rightous over. It was their own warped ideas of what it meant to use religion to make themselves look better. Personally, I think this is just one more example on your list of reasons not to obey Jesus, but it doesn't even make any sense in the context.

Why would the pharisees slander Jesus if it was HIS rules they were trying to obey? Obviously your logic, once again, does not make sense, but that is what will happen ANY time you try to find reasons to disobey Jesus when Jesus himself said "the foolish people hear my words, but do not obey them". (matthew 7)

Well, according to your most recent post we can all see that you've definitely heard his commands...



What did Jesus say about obedience? You've not posted a single thiing from him about HOW we are meant to obey him. Would you mind doing so now? Thanks.



Seriously, lbg. You wonder why I find it more and more difficult to think of you as a genuine Christian when you have the nerve to ask a question like this in the context of obedience to Jesus. Are you aware that Jesus commanded ALL his followers to be full time evangelists of SOME KIND? Sure we all have different responsibilities or WAYS of preacing and teaching, but we are still commanded to go into all the world to do it.

It is interesting that your response is to my question "what has got you so rattled about just doing it"? Your response, apparently, is to pretend that it has nothing to do with this topic when that could not be further from the truth. Gosh, when it comes to obedience you sure are stubborn about making white black and black white.

If I am honest, I have hardly read any of your lengthy reply. I discern you have issues in your life that have thus far stopped you from doing the work of God you are constantly telling others they shoud be doing, and you in your heart yearn to do

I could venture an opinion as to what those issues are, but will not.

All I can say is. There was a time in my life when I would simply pliuck verses from the Bible and proclaim them with much gusto. But I did this because I could never be what in my heart I thought God expected me to be

God Bless ccg

 

[cows_chewing_grass]

I discern you have issues in your life that have thus far stopped you from doing the work of God you are constantly telling others they shoud be doing, and you in your heart yearn to do

More game playing. Whatever you believe me personally to be doing or NOT doing in response to the teachings I am preaching is definitely NOT an excuse for you personally to ignore them.

You did something similar when you argued that you felt you would have a problem with only obeying out of wanting to look good for others, and therfore assued that no one should try to obey for the same reason, as though no one else in the world could possible want to obey out of love or loyalty to Jesus.

If you felt pride issues about obeying, then everyone else must also feel pride issues. You even dragged Paul and Jesus into the mix to defend your position, claiming that the two of them argued any attempt to seriously obey would only lead to self righteousness.

Think about that for a moment, lbg. A desire to obey the teachings of Jesus, which are the spirit of Jesus, only leading to self righteousness. That's not so different to the pharisees claiming that the spirit in Jesus was a demon (when really it was the holy spirit). That's when Jesus said that people could make all manner of accusations against him personally, but blasphemy against the holy spirit would not be forgiven. When they insulted the spirit of God inside him he got really pissed.

I feel you do something similar when you claim that obedience to the spirit coming out of Jesus' mouth leads to self righteousness, as though that is what God's holy spirit was trying to teaching through Jesus' commands.

I could venture an opinion as to what those issues are, but will not.

But the damage is already done, isn't it? That's how rumor mongers operate. They give a little hint of some kind of wrong doing and then pretend to be too good of a person to go into the details, hoping that others will assume the worst.

The reason you are not going into details in not because you are too good for that (or you would not have brought it up in the first place) but because you don't have any such details.

Bottom line is that this is just another strategy to make this about me rather than obedience to the teachings of Jesus. You couldn't win an argument justifying rebellion on the basis of any teachings in the Bible, so you've turned your attention to me personally.

Why do you think it's called ''the root of all evil''. lbg? Examine your behavior here.

All I can say is. There was a time in my life when I would simply pliuck verses from the Bible and proclaim them with much gusto. But I did this because I could never be what in my heart I thought God expected me to be

Once again we are confronted with something that YOU did which you felt was wrong, and therefore anyone else who also speaks with gusto about something from the Bible must be doing the same thing as you.

Ok. So come here to Kenya where I am if you want to prove your accusation. Don't just accuse me of doing what you did without being willing to back it up. Come see how I live and what I am doing. You could even give it a try WITH me and perhaps we can find a way around all the pride, boasting, and self righteousness you said invariably creeps into your soul any time you start to think about obeying Jesus.

Otherwise, I think you really should just stick to the issue rather than making this something personal you have against me for pointing out ''with gusto'' obedience to Jesus.