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Dec 27, 2018
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Oh yes he DID.

WIKEPEDIA
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus

While being confined at Yodfat (Jotapata), Josephus claimed to have experienced a divine revelation that later led to his speech predicting Vespasian would become emperor. After the prediction came true, he was released by Vespasian, who considered his gift of prophecy to be divine. Josephus wrote that his revelation had taught him three things: that God, the creator of the Jewish people, had decided to "punish" them; that "fortune" had been given to the Romans; and that God had chosen him "to announce the things that are to come".
OH NO HE DIDNT.


He never said that Jesus is the son of God.
Josephus just made the claim that he himself is a prophet of God and knows the future.

If he had converted to Christ and preached the gospel then he would had been persecuted with the saints who preached the gospel

Josephus never became a christian and never acknowledged that Jesus is the son of God.Josrphus taught Judaism ,not the gospel.
 

Radius

Senior Member
Feb 11, 2013
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Oh yes he DID.

WIKEPEDIA
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus

While being confined at Yodfat (Jotapata), Josephus claimed to have experienced a divine revelation that later led to his speech predicting Vespasian would become emperor. After the prediction came true, he was released by Vespasian, who considered his gift of prophecy to be divine. Josephus wrote that his revelation had taught him three things: that God, the creator of the Jewish people, had decided to "punish" them; that "fortune" had been given to the Romans; and that God had chosen him "to announce the things that are to come".
This quote in no way says he became a Christian. It says he believed he received revelations and the gift of prophecy. Also he acknowledged God. But does not say that he turned to God in repentance and believed Jesus was His savior. Many believe in God, but aren't saved.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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OH NO HE DIDNT.


He never said that Jesus is the son of God.
Josephus just made the claim that he himself is a prophet of God and knows the future.

If he had converted to Christ and preached the gospel then he would had been persecuted with the saints who preached the gospel

Josephus never became a christian and never acknowledged that Jesus is the son of God.Josrphus taught Judaism ,not the gospel.
Believe what you want to believe, I for one, believe what he stated, is equal to being a Christian.
 
Dec 27, 2018
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Believe what you want to believe, I for one, believe what he stated, is equal to being a Christian.
You believe a false prophet is equal to being in Christ?Believe what you want.

Jesus said he was the last to be sent by God.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Which part of that says he converted?

(Quote) Flavius Josephus. His histories and eyewitness testimonies remain essential to the study of the historical context that gave rise to the origins of Christianity.

The writings of Josephus are crucially important for several disciplines: Second Temple Judaism in the 1st century CE, background sources for the early history of Christianity, historical details of the client kings of the Roman Empire in the East, and the line of the Julio-Claudian emperors in Rome. (End Quote) World History Encyclopedia

Antiquities of the Jews
Book 18, Chapter 3, Section 3
3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
 

Komentaja

Active member
Jul 29, 2022
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(Quote) Flavius Josephus. His histories and eyewitness testimonies remain essential to the study of the historical context that gave rise to the origins of Christianity.

The writings of Josephus are crucially important for several disciplines: Second Temple Judaism in the 1st century CE, background sources for the early history of Christianity, historical details of the client kings of the Roman Empire in the East, and the line of the Julio-Claudian emperors in Rome. (End Quote) World History Encyclopedia

Antiquities of the Jews
Book 18, Chapter 3, Section 3
3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
Wow! This is monumental. Thanks for this VCO.
 
Dec 27, 2018
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(Quote) Flavius Josephus. His histories and eyewitness testimonies remain essential to the study of the historical context that gave rise to the origins of Christianity.

The writings of Josephus are crucially important for several disciplines: Second Temple Judaism in the 1st century CE, background sources for the early history of Christianity, historical details of the client kings of the Roman Empire in the East, and the line of the Julio-Claudian emperors in Rome. (End Quote) World History Encyclopedia

Antiquities of the Jews
Book 18, Chapter 3, Section 3
3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; (10) as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.

Most scholars believe the Greek text is corrupted and the Arabic version would be correct.They except the second mention of James being Jesus brother but not the text you have quoted from the Greek version.
Ealier christians did not believe Josephus was a christian.


The Christian author Origen wrote around the year 240. His writings predate both the earliest known manuscripts of the Testimonium and the earliest quotations of the Testimonium by other writers. In his surviving works Origen fails to mention the Testimonium Flavianum, even though he was clearly familiar with the Antiquities of the Jews, since he mentions the less significant reference by Josephus to Jesus as brother of James, which occurs later in Antiquities of the Jews (xx.9), and also other passages from Antiquities such as the passage about John the Baptist. Furthermore, Origen states that Josephus was "not believing in Jesus as the Christ" 1 "he did not accept Jesus as Christ" 2, but the Testimonium declares Jesus to be Christ. Because of these arguments, some scholars believe that the version of Antiquities available to Origen did not mention Jesus at this point at all.

On the other hand, while this argument asserts that Josephus could not have written the Testimonium in its current form, it also demonstrates, according to some scholars, that Josephus must have written something about Jesus, for otherwise Origen would have no reason to make the claim that Josephus "did not accept Jesus as Christ." Presumably whatever he did write was sufficiently negative that Origen chose not to quote it.

The Dialog With Trypho the Jew 3, written about a hundred years after the death of Jesus, is Justin the Philosopher's account of a dialog between himself and a Jewish rabbi named Trypho. In it two men debated about whether Jesus was the promised Messiah. Justin makes no mention of the Testimonium in his efforts to persuade the rabbi, even though: (1) Justin was a noteworthy scholar and was known to have pored over the works of Josephus, whose Antiquities had been written fewer than fifty years earlier; (2) the passage was directly relevant to their discussion; (3) the rabbi would certainly have been impressed by a relevant evidentiary citation from the greatest known Jewish historian.

Justin also fails to mention the passage in his . In fact, the absence of references to the Testimonium is consistent throughout the work of the Christian writers and apologists of the years 100-300 A.D. It is never mentioned by any author of those two centuries, Christian or otherwise. This passage is first quoted by Eusebius (ca. 315) in two places (Hist. Eccl., lib. i, c. xi; Demonst. Evang., lib. iii); but contextual analysis indicates that it seems to have been unknown to Justin the Philosopher (ca. 140), Clement of Alexandria (ca. 192), Tertullian (ca. 193), and Origen (ca. 230), although each of them was acquainted with the work of Josephus.

The interruption of the narrative by the Testimonium Flavium (passage 3.3) also suggests that it is an interpolation. In its context, passage 3.2 runs directly into passage 3.4, and thus the thread of continuity is interrupted by the Testimonium (passage 3.3).

The passage 3.3 also fails a standard test for authenticity, in that it contains vocabulary not otherwise used by Josephus 4.

On the other hand, linguistic analysis has not proven conclusive when compared with other passages in Josephus which likewise exhibit unusual features.

It is argued that "He was [the] Christ" can only be read as a profession of faith. If so, this could not be right, as Josephus was not a Christian and he characterized his patron Emperor Vespasian as the foretold Messiah.

Some of the deepest concerns about the authenticity of the passage were succinctly expressed by John Dominic Crossan (1991), in The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Peasant: "The problem here is that Josephus' account is too good to be true, too confessional to be impartial, too Christian to be Jewish." Three passages stood out: "if it be lawful to call him a man … He was [the] Christ … for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him." To some these seem directly to address Christological debates of the early 4th century. Consequently, some scholars regard at least these parts of the Testimonium as later interpolations.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
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Most scholars believe the Greek text is corrupted and the Arabic version would be correct.They except the second mention of James being Jesus brother but not the text you have quoted from the Greek version.
Ealier christians did not believe Josephus was a christian.


The Christian author Origen wrote around the year 240. His writings predate both the earliest known manuscripts of the Testimonium and the earliest quotations of the Testimonium by other writers. In his surviving works Origen fails to mention the Testimonium Flavianum, even though he was clearly familiar with the Antiquities of the Jews, since he mentions the less significant reference by Josephus to Jesus as brother of James, which occurs later in Antiquities of the Jews (xx.9), and also other passages from Antiquities such as the passage about John the Baptist. Furthermore, Origen states that Josephus was "not believing in Jesus as the Christ" 1 "he did not accept Jesus as Christ" 2, but the Testimonium declares Jesus to be Christ. Because of these arguments, some scholars believe that the version of Antiquities available to Origen did not mention Jesus at this point at all.

On the other hand, while this argument asserts that Josephus could not have written the Testimonium in its current form, it also demonstrates, according to some scholars, that Josephus must have written something about Jesus, for otherwise Origen would have no reason to make the claim that Josephus "did not accept Jesus as Christ." Presumably whatever he did write was sufficiently negative that Origen chose not to quote it.

The Dialog With Trypho the Jew 3, written about a hundred years after the death of Jesus, is Justin the Philosopher's account of a dialog between himself and a Jewish rabbi named Trypho. In it two men debated about whether Jesus was the promised Messiah. Justin makes no mention of the Testimonium in his efforts to persuade the rabbi, even though: (1) Justin was a noteworthy scholar and was known to have pored over the works of Josephus, whose Antiquities had been written fewer than fifty years earlier; (2) the passage was directly relevant to their discussion; (3) the rabbi would certainly have been impressed by a relevant evidentiary citation from the greatest known Jewish historian.

Justin also fails to mention the passage in his . In fact, the absence of references to the Testimonium is consistent throughout the work of the Christian writers and apologists of the years 100-300 A.D. It is never mentioned by any author of those two centuries, Christian or otherwise. This passage is first quoted by Eusebius (ca. 315) in two places (Hist. Eccl., lib. i, c. xi; Demonst. Evang., lib. iii); but contextual analysis indicates that it seems to have been unknown to Justin the Philosopher (ca. 140), Clement of Alexandria (ca. 192), Tertullian (ca. 193), and Origen (ca. 230), although each of them was acquainted with the work of Josephus.

The interruption of the narrative by the Testimonium Flavium (passage 3.3) also suggests that it is an interpolation. In its context, passage 3.2 runs directly into passage 3.4, and thus the thread of continuity is interrupted by the Testimonium (passage 3.3).

The passage 3.3 also fails a standard test for authenticity, in that it contains vocabulary not otherwise used by Josephus 4.

On the other hand, linguistic analysis has not proven conclusive when compared with other passages in Josephus which likewise exhibit unusual features.

It is argued that "He was [the] Christ" can only be read as a profession of faith. If so, this could not be right, as Josephus was not a Christian and he characterized his patron Emperor Vespasian as the foretold Messiah.

Some of the deepest concerns about the authenticity of the passage were succinctly expressed by John Dominic Crossan (1991), in The Historical Jesus: The Life of a Mediterranean Peasant: "The problem here is that Josephus' account is too good to be true, too confessional to be impartial, too Christian to be Jewish." Three passages stood out: "if it be lawful to call him a man … He was [the] Christ … for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him." To some these seem directly to address Christological debates of the early 4th century. Consequently, some scholars regard at least these parts of the Testimonium as later interpolations.

MOST EVANGELICALS BELIEVE AS I HAD STATED.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
113
Most scholars believe the Greek text is corrupted and the Arabic version would be correct.They except the second mention of James being Jesus brother but not the text you have quoted from the Greek version.
Ealier christians did not believe Josephus was a christian.
. . .
When did any of us become a Christian?

The answer lies within the VERSE.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

The same is true about JOSEPHUS.
 
Dec 27, 2018
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When did any of us become a Christian?

The answer lies within the VERSE.

2 Timothy 1:9 (HCSB)
9 He has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began.

The same is true about JOSEPHUS.
Not according to the early church which read his earlier works before they were changed.
The early church said Josephus was a historian but not a christian.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Not according to the early church which read his earlier works before they were changed.
The early church said Josephus was a historian but not a christian.

You base your opinion on what the early church says.

Evangelicals base their opinions on what the Word of GOD actually Says.

So be it! Tired of debating you.
 
Dec 27, 2018
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You base your opinion on what the early church says.

Evangelicals base their opinions on what the Word of GOD actually Says.

So be it! Tired of debating you.

The word of God does not mention Josephus.lol

And evangelicals do not base their opinions on the word of God.If they did,they wouldn't be wanting Donald Trump to be their leader
 

jamessb

Active member
Feb 10, 2024
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Santa Fe NM
Most evangelicals believe the beast is God's chosen people..
Then "most evangelicals" are totally wrong. Jesus, in human form, was a Jew, as were all the disciples, all the apostles, and all the authors of the Bible's "books" (except Luke).
 
Dec 27, 2018
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Then "most evangelicals" are totally wrong. Jesus, in human form, was a Jew, as were all the disciples, all the apostles, and all the authors of the Bible's "books" (except Luke).
True.
Herod was a Jew too who tried to kill Christ as soon as he was born
And let's not forget the world's first antichrist Caiaphas.

The difference between Herod Caiaphas and the apostles is the apostles we're chosen but Herod and Caiaphas were not.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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The word of God does not mention Josephus.lol

And evangelicals do not base their opinions on the word of God.If they did,they wouldn't be wanting Donald Trump to be their leader

Here are Some of what we evangelical believe:

The Bible
We believe that the 66 books of the Bible are God’s inspired revelation to man. They are the very word of God, without error, completely authoritative, essential, sufficient, and trustworthy, and constitute the only infallible rule for truth and life. It is our constant privilege to read, study, teach, obey, and model God’s word in order to be truthful and loving ambassadors for Christ to our world.

Psalm 19:7-14; 2 Timothy 3:15, 17; 2 Peter 1:20, 3:14-16; Matthew 5:18; John 10:35; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; John 17:17; Hebrews 4:12; John 19:36, 37; Romans 9:17, 10:1, 11:2

The Triune God
We believe there is only one God, eternally existing in three equally divine Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Our God is an intelligent, spiritual, and knowable personal being. He is infinite and unchanging in all his attributes. He is supremely powerful and knows all things exhaustively in one eternal moment, including the free future decisions of all humanity.

Genesis 1:1; 1 Kings 18:39; Psalm 100:3; 115:1-3; Matthew 28:19, 20; Acts 5:3, 4; John 1:1, 14, 18; 8:58, 59; 10:31-33; Isaiah 46:8-11; Ephesians 1:9-11; Daniel 4:34, 35; Romans 11:33-36

God the Father
We believe God the Father is the creator and sustainer of all things. He is infinitely good, perfectly holy, and boundless in his love. He is a loving Father, always available to those who, through faith in Christ, call upon him in truth. Having brought all creation into existence through his word, he is sovereign over all things so that, ultimately, his purpose will be fulfilled and his glory fully displayed.

Psalm 145:8, 9; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Genesis 1:1; Ephesians 1:4-6; 3:9; 4:6; Psalm 103:19; Romans 11:33-36; 8:14, 15; 2 Corinthians 6:18, Ephesians 1:11; 1 Chronicles 29:11; Habakkuk 1:12; Psalm 50:14, 15; Matthew 11:28-30; John 6:38, 42; 8:38-47; 1 Peter 1:14-16; 1 John 3:1-3; John 1:11-13; Galatians 4:5; Hebrews 12:5-9

God the Son
We believe that Jesus Christ is God the Son through whom all things were created and now are held together. He is fully human and fully divine. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He took on all human attributes, yet lived a sinless life. He gave over the independent use of his divine attributes to the Father, but retained his divine essence. He died on the cross as a vicarious substitute for all believers, rose from the dead, and ascended to the right hand of God where he intercedes for his people. He now dwells in all Christ-followers as their Lord and Savior. He will return one day in power and glory to judge the world and consummate his redemptive mission.

John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:15-17; Hebrews 1:1, 2; Philippians 2:5-11; Colossians 2:9; Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23-25; Luke 1:26-35; John 1:14, 18; Psalm 2:7-9; Isaiah 9:6; John 1:29; Hebrews 7:25, 26; 9:24; 1 Peter 2:24; 3:18; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Colossians 1:27; 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 2 Peter 3:11-13; Revelation 20:1-6; Isaiah 9:6, 7
 
Dec 27, 2018
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Here are Some of what we evangelical believe:

The Bible
We believe that the 66 books of the Bible are God’s inspired revelation to man. They are the very word of God, without error, completely authoritative, essential, sufficient, and trustworthy, and constitute the only infallible rule for truth and life. It is our constant privilege to read, study, teach, obey, and model God’s word in order to be truthful and loving ambassadors for Christ to our world.

Psalm 19:7-14; 2 Timothy 3:15, 17; 2 Peter 1:20, 3:14-16; Matthew 5:18; John 10:35; 1 Thessalonians 2:13; John 17:17; Hebrews 4:12; John 19:36, 37; Romans 9:17, 10:1, 11:2

The Triune God
We believe there is only one God, eternally existing in three equally divine Persons: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Our God is an intelligent, spiritual, and knowable personal being. He is infinite and unchanging in all his attributes. He is supremely powerful and knows all things exhaustively in one eternal moment, including the free future decisions of all humanity.

Genesis 1:1; 1 Kings 18:39; Psalm 100:3; 115:1-3; Matthew 28:19, 20; Acts 5:3, 4; John 1:1, 14, 18; 8:58, 59; 10:31-33; Isaiah 46:8-11; Ephesians 1:9-11; Daniel 4:34, 35; Romans 11:33-36

God the Father
We believe God the Father is the creator and sustainer of all things. He is infinitely good, perfectly holy, and boundless in his love. He is a loving Father, always available to those who, through faith in Christ, call upon him in truth. Having brought all creation into existence through his word, he is sovereign over all things so that, ultimately, his purpose will be fulfilled and his glory fully displayed.

Psalm 145:8, 9; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Genesis 1:1; Ephesians 1:4-6; 3:9; 4:6; Psalm 103:19; Romans 11:33-36; 8:14, 15; 2 Corinthians 6:18, Ephesians 1:11; 1 Chronicles 29:11; Habakkuk 1:12; Psalm 50:14, 15; Matthew 11:28-30; John 6:38, 42; 8:38-47; 1 Peter 1:14-16; 1 John 3:1-3; John 1:11-13; Galatians 4:5; Hebrews 12:5-9

God the Son
We believe that Jesus Christ is God the Son through whom all things were created and now are held together. He is fully human and fully divine. He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He took on all human attributes, yet lived a sinless life. He gave over the independent use of his divine attributes to the Father, but retained his divine essence. He died on the cross as a vicarious substitute for all believers, rose from the dead, and ascended to the right hand of God where he intercedes for his people. He now dwells in all Christ-followers as their Lord and Savior. He will return one day in power and glory to judge the world and consummate his redemptive mission.

John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:15-17; Hebrews 1:1, 2; Philippians 2:5-11; Colossians 2:9; Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23-25; Luke 1:26-35; John 1:14, 18; Psalm 2:7-9; Isaiah 9:6; John 1:29; Hebrews 7:25, 26; 9:24; 1 Peter 2:24; 3:18; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Colossians 1:27; 1 Corinthians 15:3, 4; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 2 Peter 3:11-13; Revelation 20:1-6; Isaiah 9:6, 7

Is that why evangelicals support the antichrist government of Israel?
Is it because Jesus told them to or because it's God's commandments to support the antichrist?

It's like they worship the beast or something.Evamgelicals are very open to showing their admiration for a government that opposes Christ.A goverment that is completely antichrist with not a single member belonging to Christ.Its down right amazing .