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Aug 10, 2015
73
0
0
#1
What is worship according to scripture. This is why you opinion is not required.

I will not reply to any silly comments.




Now, let's get one thing straight: "Worship" is not synonymous with "music." That may be what the contemporary meaning and jargon has evolved to, but "worship" and "music" are two different terms entirely. In fact, there is no place in the New Testament where "worship" is connected with "music" at all! Not one place! Let me repeat this: There is no place in the New Testament where "worship" and "music" are connected in scripture. Not one place. There are scriptures which speak of musical expression for the purpose of praise and thanksgiving, and there are other scriptures that speak about worship in different contexts, but never the two together.

In pointing this out, I am not saying that the two concepts are somehow incompatible or in conflict. That is not the point. The point is that the notion that "worship" = "music," and "music" = "worship" has now become ubiquitous and is a sacred cow. The danger of the sacred cow is that it causes people to rally around musical expression (particularly contemporary musical expression) as being the epitome of godliness and spirituality in "worshiping" God, assuming it as the highest virtue in the Christian faith.

Oh and, by the way, did I mention that there is not one place in the New Testament where "music" and "worship" are mentioned in connection with one another?

With that out of the way, let us investigate what "worship" actually means, and how it applies to us as Christians.

The word itself is προσκυνεω (Strong's G4352, "pros-kuneo"), which is a compound of προσ- (Strong's G4314, "pros"), which means "toward," and κυνεω ("kuneo"). κυνεω might seem at first to be the verb form of "dog." However, the root κυς ("kus") means "kiss," though not found in the Bible, but in other Greek texts, and this is considered the more likely root.

This is all a bit awkward. Language does not always have a perfect algorithmic logic to it. James Strong himself makes what he describes as a "probable" connection between "dog" and "kiss" in his definition, but that seems a stretch, and is obviously speculation on his part.

If the base were "dog," the combination of the compound word would imply something to the effect of "towards dog-ging," i.e. leaning towards a dog's behavior. It would not be hard to imagine this, given what we know about how domestic dogs act toward their human masters. A dog has an attitude of unquestionable devotion to its master.

On the other hand, dogs are viewed with disdain in the Bible, and are never spoken of in any positive light.

For reference, the word "dog" itself is κυων (Strong's G2965, "kuon," plural κυνες, "kunes"), used a number of times in the New Testament, and in the Septuagint, the Koine Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament.

"κυναρια" (Strongs G2952, "kunaria") is a diminutive of "dogs" (i.e. "doggies," as we would say), cited by both Jesus and the Syro-Phoenician woman to each other in Matt 15:26-27 and Mark 7:27-28. (Obviously, translators will refrain from using such an informal word as "doggie" in translation.)

In the Septuagint, the noun/verb "κυνηγειν/κυνηγεω" ("kunegos/kunegeo") is used meaning to hunter/hunt (with "hounds"?). But this is translated from a different Hebrew word for "hunt" that has nothing intrinsically to do with a dog, and therefore is not helpful to us.

In the Septuagint, the word "κυνομυια" ("kunomuia") is used, meaning "dog-fly," such as when the plague of flies covered the land of Egypt in Exodus 8. But this is translated from a different Hebrew word that only means "swarm," has nothing intrinsically to do with a dog, and therefore is not helpful to us.

The "kiss" etymology has the backing of reputable Greek scholarship, and seems reasonable as well, the key point being that the "ν" ("n") is a connecting consonant, not a part of the root, and that κυνεω is therefore a contraction, dropping the sigma (σ, "s"). Those "worshiping" in ancient times or in modern idolatrous practices would bow low to the ground, as if to kiss the ground, or perhaps kiss the feet of the one being worshiped. So then προσκυνεω would mean "kiss toward," which is also a straightforward derivation.

On the other hand, the word "kiss" is used a number of times in the New Testament, but it is always the word φιλημα (Strong's G5370, "phile-ma"). That word is based on the root/prefix φιλ__ ("phil__"), meaning "fond," which is the basis for a whole group of words (Strong's G5358 through G5391, over 30 words). The "-μα" ("-ma") ending denotes the effect or manifestation of something. Putting those two together gives us "fond-effect" or "fond-manifestation," and that is the word used in the New Testament that is translated "kiss."

I think that's all that can be said about the word roots. Regardless of the "dog" or "kiss" component's relevance to the etymology of the word, it is clear from the contexts that the word for "worship" simply refers to an attitude of deep devotion, which can then be seen in a person's resulting behavior toward the object that he is devoted to.

The word προσκυνεω can also be translated using the word "obeisance," which is not as common a word in English, but has more of a tangible meaning.

If you look through the New Testament, the places where "worship" is used fall into some predictable categories. One is where people "worshiped" Jesus in response to his performing a miracle, or having to do with recognizing who he was. Another is in reference to the Old Covenant, where people worshiped at the temple, for example. Another is where pagans worshiped pagan gods.

There is actually only one place where "worship" is discussed in terms of the New Covenant, and that is in the dialog between Jesus and the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4. There Jesus defined what it would be to us.

The woman said, "Our fathers worship in this mountain and you[plural] are saying that the place where it is binding to be worshiping is in Jerusalem."

Jesus responded, "Woman, believe me that an hour is coming when you will be worshiping to the father neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You are worshiping what you are not aware; we are worshiping what we are aware, that salvation is out of the Judeans. But an hour is coming and now is when the true worshipers will be worshiping to the father in spirit and truth, and for the father is seeking such, worshiping same. Spirit the God, and it is binding to be worshiping, the ones-worshiping same, in spirit and truth."

That last sentence, which I rendered very literally, is a little bit awkward. (Also, understand that "same" is being used as a prounoun, so we would normally translate it "him.") But the point of the above should be obvious. The woman is asking whether it is "here" or "there," and Jesus says that it is going to be "neither." The answer isn't "here" or "there" but "in spirit and truth." So the issue of "where" is "neither here nor there," as the modern idiom goes. "In spirit" refers to being in the Spirit, and "in truth" refers to being in truth, according to the Word of God. So New Covenant "worship" is a life devoted to God in spirit and truth, not "here" or "there," not a method, an action, a ritual, a routine, a ceremony, a special observance, or anything like that.

That is the only place in the New Testament where Christian "worship" is discussed.

Now we know that by being "in Christ" we are devoted to the Father because Jesus is devoted to the Father. It is a matter of who we are "in Christ," not what we do, so is a matter of identity, not performance. Our actions, our life "in the spirit" are an outgrowth of that identity; it is not our actions (such as worshiping "here" or "there") that are the basis or cause for that identity.

So you should begin to see how far the status quo has strayed from the truth. It is not merely that the idea of "worship," in the New Covenant understanding, is almost completely absent from today's thinking. Indeed, it is worse than having an "Old Covenant" or pagan concept by which you specify a time or place or ritual to be set aside as "worship." Now it has gotten to the point that if someone says, "It's time for worship," or, "That was a good time of worship," they are referring to the music. A "worship team" is now a "music team." The logical implication of this is that there can be no "worship" without the music, and that if other kinds of "teams" are formed, that they are not "worship teams" if they have nothing to do with music, or that a Christian only "worships" in participating in musical expression.

But "in spirit" is not a place or a time or a method. Neither is "in truth" a place or a time or a method. That is why New Covenant "worship" has nothing to do with such things, and that is why you will not find "worship" and "music" connected to each other anywhere in the New Testament.

At this point another word must be examined, and it is the word λατρεια (Strong's G2999, "latreia"), which means "service." This is "service" as an obligation, in contrast to διακονια (Strong's G1248, "diakonia") which speaks of voluntary service. διακονια is where we get the religious transliteration "deacon," and the root word from which the religious term "ministry" is translated, but it is a generic word that means "service" or "dispensation" ("dispensation," as in something "dispensed," not the religious eschalogical term), and is not itself a religious term.

The word λατρεια is the word used in Rom 12:1, where it says, "I am entreating, then, you brothers, through the mercy of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy well-pleasing to the God, your logical service." In some English translations this is translated "worship," but it isn't the word "worship" (i.e. it is not the word προσκυνηω).

Rom 12:1 also contrasts the Old Covenant principle to the New Covenant principle, just like Jesus did when discussing "worship" with the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4. The word λατρεια is used in the New Testament and the Septuagint Koine Greek translation of the Old Testament very frequently in reference to how people "served" in the rituals and obligations of the Old Covenant. In Rom 12:1, the "logical" corresponding "service" is for us to offer our bodies as "living sacrifices," in contrast to the animal sacrifices and other designated acts of "service" offered in the Old Covenant.

To illustrate that the word προσκυνεω and λατρεια are two different words and concepts, though related, the text of the first of the "Ten Commandments" in Exodus 20:5 has both words in the Koine Greek Septuagint translation. It says, "There shall not be to you other gods besides me. You shall not make to yourself an idol, nor any representation, as much as in the heaven upward nor as much as in the earth below, nor as much as in the waters underneath the earth. You shall not do obeisance (προσκυνησεις, "worship") to them, nor shall you serve (λατρευσεις) to them." (ABP interlinear).

Interestingly, we also have the modern term "worship service." It is a very fitting label from a language point of view, but actually illustrates the tradition of men and the sacred cow. You "go" to a place called a "church," on a set time, and perform a religious duty ("service") where you "worship" God. When the "worship service" is over, then your religious duty is completed for perhaps a week, during which time you do whatever else you want, the obligation for the week having been fulfilled. This corresponds to either an "Old Covenant" mentality or a "pagan" mentality. It is not an "in Christ" mentality.

This is not to say that it is wrong to meet, even weekly if you want, even Sunday morning if you want, for a set program or routine, in a building that you call a "church," run by a supporting organization of men. It is just that such meetings and programs tend to become the focus of Christian expression and duty, rather than who you are in Christ and your bodies as "living sacrifices." Such programs, institutions, and buildings ought to serve (λατρεια) you and the body of Christ. You ought not to serve (λατρεια) them.

Ironically again, the term "worship service" predates the more recent shift to identify "worship" as equated with "music." So now we have in popular religious jargon that a "worship service" is the whole Sunday morning program, which includes, but is not limited to, a time of "worship" (i.e. music).

New Covenant "worship" transcends all that, and is instead simply our devotion "in spirit and truth." Our "logical" act of "service" is to offer our bodies as "living sacrifices." Once you understand these things, then the principle of "worship" and "service" transcends and defines everything that you do, rather than being something that you do. You are then set free to be who you are in Christ, at the same time obligated 24/7/365 to your fundamental devotion and service in Christ.

And again, this is not meant to disparage spiritual musical expression in any way, or even the extent to which that musical expression has evolved in recent times. The mistake people often make is to produce or participate in musical expression in order to "get pumped up" in the spirit, in other words, to manipulate God. This is putting the cart before the horse. Since you cannot manipulate God, such people are really just manipulating their emotions, will experience a let-down soon after the music stops, and will not be able to optimally function without music, to the extent that they become emotionally addicted to it. Rather, if you understand who you are in Christ, that your "worship" is "in spirit and truth," then with that as a basis you will enter into times of praise and thanksgiving as a result, including using music, and the basis for it will not fade when the music stops. Understand that this basis for "worship" has nothing to do with "music" or any other action that you might perform.

In conclusion, "worship" is not only not music, it isn't anything that people generally have been saying that it is. It is your timeless, fundamental devotion to God in spirit and truth.
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
413
0
#2
2,466 words to say, basically, nothing?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,531
26,488
113
#3
*
I feel so blessed by modern praise and worship! I am never bored to hear how Jesus loves us so much He gave His life so that we could truly live; I never tire of hearing how wonderful is our God, and always appreciate His reminders of how wretched I really am, and what He lifted me out of. I love to hear and connect with the passion for the LORD fellow believers express; I share in it, I feel one with them in it, and even more, I appreciate that they have dedicated their talents to praising God in such a way that it becomes a communal experience in the corporate body of Christ. The mastery of their craft is a testament to the goodness of God. It blesses me. It feeds me. It inspires and uplifts me. It speaks to the intimately personal nature of God's relationship with His creation. I experience my humanity in it juxtaposed against the glory of God. Praise God! I worship Him through music, the lyrics that incorporate His revealed written Word, the reality of who we are compared to Him. We make a joyful noise unto the LORD! Hallelujah!
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,712
3,651
113
#4
I stopped at the 1st paragraph seeing worship is connected with music and instruments in the NT and zillions of references in the Old.
Are you a member of the Church of Christ?...

Revelation 5:8-9 (KJV)
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Revelation 14:2-3 (KJV)
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

Revelation 15:2 (KJV) And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
Revelation 15:3 (KJV) And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

Giving praise and thanksgiving is part of worship.
 
Last edited:
S

Sirk

Guest
#5
What's a discussion? I'm confused.
 
V

VioletReigns

Guest
#7
As soon as I read, "I will not reply to any silly comments." I knew it was a bust. *sigh* :(



My job here is done................ :rolleyes:
you're welcome :eek:
 
S

Sirk

Guest
#8
Sorry, no discussion is allowed on this discussion board.
Oh.... This is a discussion board? I thought it was a disagreement board. I guess I figured that we are supposed to use all kinds of negative adjectives about the person that we are disagreeing with on this disagreement board. Dang...do I still have it wrong. I am so confused as to what to do now.
 
Dec 1, 2014
9,701
251
0
#10
What is worship according to scripture. This is why you opinion is not required.

I will not reply to any silly comments.




Now, let's get one thing straight: "Worship" is not synonymous with "music." That may be what the contemporary meaning and jargon has evolved to, but "worship" and "music" are two different terms entirely. In fact, there is no place in the New Testament where "worship" is connected with "music" at all! Not one place! Let me repeat this: There is no place in the New Testament where "worship" and "music" are connected in scripture. Not one place. There are scriptures which speak of musical expression for the purpose of praise and thanksgiving, and there are other scriptures that speak about worship in different contexts, but never the two together.

In pointing this out, I am not saying that the two concepts are somehow incompatible or in conflict. That is not the point. The point is that the notion that "worship" = "music," and "music" = "worship" has now become ubiquitous and is a sacred cow. The danger of the sacred cow is that it causes people to rally around musical expression (particularly contemporary musical expression) as being the epitome of godliness and spirituality in "worshiping" God, assuming it as the highest virtue in the Christian faith.

Oh and, by the way, did I mention that there is not one place in the New Testament where "music" and "worship" are mentioned in connection with one another?

With that out of the way, let us investigate what "worship" actually means, and how it applies to us as Christians.

The word itself is προσκυνεω (Strong's G4352, "pros-kuneo"), which is a compound of προσ- (Strong's G4314, "pros"), which means "toward," and κυνεω ("kuneo"). κυνεω might seem at first to be the verb form of "dog." However, the root κυς ("kus") means "kiss," though not found in the Bible, but in other Greek texts, and this is considered the more likely root.

This is all a bit awkward. Language does not always have a perfect algorithmic logic to it. James Strong himself makes what he describes as a "probable" connection between "dog" and "kiss" in his definition, but that seems a stretch, and is obviously speculation on his part.

If the base were "dog," the combination of the compound word would imply something to the effect of "towards dog-ging," i.e. leaning towards a dog's behavior. It would not be hard to imagine this, given what we know about how domestic dogs act toward their human masters. A dog has an attitude of unquestionable devotion to its master.

On the other hand, dogs are viewed with disdain in the Bible, and are never spoken of in any positive light.

For reference, the word "dog" itself is κυων (Strong's G2965, "kuon," plural κυνες, "kunes"), used a number of times in the New Testament, and in the Septuagint, the Koine Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament.

"κυναρια" (Strongs G2952, "kunaria") is a diminutive of "dogs" (i.e. "doggies," as we would say), cited by both Jesus and the Syro-Phoenician woman to each other in Matt 15:26-27 and Mark 7:27-28. (Obviously, translators will refrain from using such an informal word as "doggie" in translation.)

In the Septuagint, the noun/verb "κυνηγειν/κυνηγεω" ("kunegos/kunegeo") is used meaning to hunter/hunt (with "hounds"?). But this is translated from a different Hebrew word for "hunt" that has nothing intrinsically to do with a dog, and therefore is not helpful to us.

In the Septuagint, the word "κυνομυια" ("kunomuia") is used, meaning "dog-fly," such as when the plague of flies covered the land of Egypt in Exodus 8. But this is translated from a different Hebrew word that only means "swarm," has nothing intrinsically to do with a dog, and therefore is not helpful to us.

The "kiss" etymology has the backing of reputable Greek scholarship, and seems reasonable as well, the key point being that the "ν" ("n") is a connecting consonant, not a part of the root, and that κυνεω is therefore a contraction, dropping the sigma (σ, "s"). Those "worshiping" in ancient times or in modern idolatrous practices would bow low to the ground, as if to kiss the ground, or perhaps kiss the feet of the one being worshiped. So then προσκυνεω would mean "kiss toward," which is also a straightforward derivation.

On the other hand, the word "kiss" is used a number of times in the New Testament, but it is always the word φιλημα (Strong's G5370, "phile-ma"). That word is based on the root/prefix φιλ__ ("phil__"), meaning "fond," which is the basis for a whole group of words (Strong's G5358 through G5391, over 30 words). The "-μα" ("-ma") ending denotes the effect or manifestation of something. Putting those two together gives us "fond-effect" or "fond-manifestation," and that is the word used in the New Testament that is translated "kiss."

I think that's all that can be said about the word roots. Regardless of the "dog" or "kiss" component's relevance to the etymology of the word, it is clear from the contexts that the word for "worship" simply refers to an attitude of deep devotion, which can then be seen in a person's resulting behavior toward the object that he is devoted to.

The word προσκυνεω can also be translated using the word "obeisance," which is not as common a word in English, but has more of a tangible meaning.

If you look through the New Testament, the places where "worship" is used fall into some predictable categories. One is where people "worshiped" Jesus in response to his performing a miracle, or having to do with recognizing who he was. Another is in reference to the Old Covenant, where people worshiped at the temple, for example. Another is where pagans worshiped pagan gods.

There is actually only one place where "worship" is discussed in terms of the New Covenant, and that is in the dialog between Jesus and the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4. There Jesus defined what it would be to us.

The woman said, "Our fathers worship in this mountain and you[plural] are saying that the place where it is binding to be worshiping is in Jerusalem."

Jesus responded, "Woman, believe me that an hour is coming when you will be worshiping to the father neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem. You are worshiping what you are not aware; we are worshiping what we are aware, that salvation is out of the Judeans. But an hour is coming and now is when the true worshipers will be worshiping to the father in spirit and truth, and for the father is seeking such, worshiping same. Spirit the God, and it is binding to be worshiping, the ones-worshiping same, in spirit and truth."

That last sentence, which I rendered very literally, is a little bit awkward. (Also, understand that "same" is being used as a prounoun, so we would normally translate it "him.") But the point of the above should be obvious. The woman is asking whether it is "here" or "there," and Jesus says that it is going to be "neither." The answer isn't "here" or "there" but "in spirit and truth." So the issue of "where" is "neither here nor there," as the modern idiom goes. "In spirit" refers to being in the Spirit, and "in truth" refers to being in truth, according to the Word of God. So New Covenant "worship" is a life devoted to God in spirit and truth, not "here" or "there," not a method, an action, a ritual, a routine, a ceremony, a special observance, or anything like that.

That is the only place in the New Testament where Christian "worship" is discussed.

Now we know that by being "in Christ" we are devoted to the Father because Jesus is devoted to the Father. It is a matter of who we are "in Christ," not what we do, so is a matter of identity, not performance. Our actions, our life "in the spirit" are an outgrowth of that identity; it is not our actions (such as worshiping "here" or "there") that are the basis or cause for that identity.

So you should begin to see how far the status quo has strayed from the truth. It is not merely that the idea of "worship," in the New Covenant understanding, is almost completely absent from today's thinking. Indeed, it is worse than having an "Old Covenant" or pagan concept by which you specify a time or place or ritual to be set aside as "worship." Now it has gotten to the point that if someone says, "It's time for worship," or, "That was a good time of worship," they are referring to the music. A "worship team" is now a "music team." The logical implication of this is that there can be no "worship" without the music, and that if other kinds of "teams" are formed, that they are not "worship teams" if they have nothing to do with music, or that a Christian only "worships" in participating in musical expression.

But "in spirit" is not a place or a time or a method. Neither is "in truth" a place or a time or a method. That is why New Covenant "worship" has nothing to do with such things, and that is why you will not find "worship" and "music" connected to each other anywhere in the New Testament.

At this point another word must be examined, and it is the word λατρεια (Strong's G2999, "latreia"), which means "service." This is "service" as an obligation, in contrast to διακονια (Strong's G1248, "diakonia") which speaks of voluntary service. διακονια is where we get the religious transliteration "deacon," and the root word from which the religious term "ministry" is translated, but it is a generic word that means "service" or "dispensation" ("dispensation," as in something "dispensed," not the religious eschalogical term), and is not itself a religious term.

The word λατρεια is the word used in Rom 12:1, where it says, "I am entreating, then, you brothers, through the mercy of God, to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy well-pleasing to the God, your logical service." In some English translations this is translated "worship," but it isn't the word "worship" (i.e. it is not the word προσκυνηω).

Rom 12:1 also contrasts the Old Covenant principle to the New Covenant principle, just like Jesus did when discussing "worship" with the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4. The word λατρεια is used in the New Testament and the Septuagint Koine Greek translation of the Old Testament very frequently in reference to how people "served" in the rituals and obligations of the Old Covenant. In Rom 12:1, the "logical" corresponding "service" is for us to offer our bodies as "living sacrifices," in contrast to the animal sacrifices and other designated acts of "service" offered in the Old Covenant.

To illustrate that the word προσκυνεω and λατρεια are two different words and concepts, though related, the text of the first of the "Ten Commandments" in Exodus 20:5 has both words in the Koine Greek Septuagint translation. It says, "There shall not be to you other gods besides me. You shall not make to yourself an idol, nor any representation, as much as in the heaven upward nor as much as in the earth below, nor as much as in the waters underneath the earth. You shall not do obeisance (προσκυνησεις, "worship") to them, nor shall you serve (λατρευσεις) to them." (ABP interlinear).

Interestingly, we also have the modern term "worship service." It is a very fitting label from a language point of view, but actually illustrates the tradition of men and the sacred cow. You "go" to a place called a "church," on a set time, and perform a religious duty ("service") where you "worship" God. When the "worship service" is over, then your religious duty is completed for perhaps a week, during which time you do whatever else you want, the obligation for the week having been fulfilled. This corresponds to either an "Old Covenant" mentality or a "pagan" mentality. It is not an "in Christ" mentality.

This is not to say that it is wrong to meet, even weekly if you want, even Sunday morning if you want, for a set program or routine, in a building that you call a "church," run by a supporting organization of men. It is just that such meetings and programs tend to become the focus of Christian expression and duty, rather than who you are in Christ and your bodies as "living sacrifices." Such programs, institutions, and buildings ought to serve (λατρεια) you and the body of Christ. You ought not to serve (λατρεια) them.

Ironically again, the term "worship service" predates the more recent shift to identify "worship" as equated with "music." So now we have in popular religious jargon that a "worship service" is the whole Sunday morning program, which includes, but is not limited to, a time of "worship" (i.e. music).

New Covenant "worship" transcends all that, and is instead simply our devotion "in spirit and truth." Our "logical" act of "service" is to offer our bodies as "living sacrifices." Once you understand these things, then the principle of "worship" and "service" transcends and defines everything that you do, rather than being something that you do. You are then set free to be who you are in Christ, at the same time obligated 24/7/365 to your fundamental devotion and service in Christ.

And again, this is not meant to disparage spiritual musical expression in any way, or even the extent to which that musical expression has evolved in recent times. The mistake people often make is to produce or participate in musical expression in order to "get pumped up" in the spirit, in other words, to manipulate God. This is putting the cart before the horse. Since you cannot manipulate God, such people are really just manipulating their emotions, will experience a let-down soon after the music stops, and will not be able to optimally function without music, to the extent that they become emotionally addicted to it. Rather, if you understand who you are in Christ, that your "worship" is "in spirit and truth," then with that as a basis you will enter into times of praise and thanksgiving as a result, including using music, and the basis for it will not fade when the music stops. Understand that this basis for "worship" has nothing to do with "music" or any other action that you might perform.

In conclusion, "worship" is not only not music, it isn't anything that people generally have been saying that it is. It is your timeless, fundamental devotion to God in spirit and truth.
Translated: Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah . . .
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,538
113
#11
Oh.... This is a discussion board? I thought it was a disagreement board. I guess I figured that we are supposed to use all kinds of negative adjectives about the person that we are disagreeing with on this disagreement board. Dang...do I still have it wrong. I am so confused as to what to do now.
So we are discussing what we are not discussing? I'm sure it can be done here on CC.

No replies to silly posts when the OP is just plain silly another oxymoron.

How do you discuss worship with folks who have no idea what worship consists of in the church today?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
S

Sirk

Guest
#12
So we are discussing what we are not discussing? I'm sure it can be done here on CC.

No replies to silly posts when the OP is just plain silly another oxymoron.

How do you discuss worship with folks who have no idea what worship consists of in the church today?

For the cause of Christ
Roger
That's a very complex question and one that I don't think is discussable under the banner of this op. However....we could start with a verse....to offer or bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God...this is our spiritual act of "worship".

Can we worship God by doing a menial task to the best of our ability that we are NOT enthused about doing? What are some ways besides music that we worship?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,712
3,651
113
#14
I think Peter must have taken a 10 week course on "the Proper Protocol to Worship" before this...

Luke 5:8 (KJV) When Simon Peter saw it, he fell down at Jesus' knees, saying, Depart from me; for I am a sinful man, O Lord.
 
E

ember

Guest
#15
In fact, there is no place in the New Testament where "worship" is connected with "music" at all! Not one place! Let me repeat this: There is no place in the New Testament where "worship" and "music" are connected in scripture. Not one place.
Well that's not true.

And it's not up for discussion.

Boy will some people ever be disappinted in heaven..
 
Feb 7, 2015
22,418
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#16
I believe this was written by Garth D. Wiebe, one of the most legalistic fanatics I've read in awhile.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,531
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#17
In fact, there is no place in the New Testament where "worship" is connected with "music" at all! Not one place! Let me repeat this: There is no place in the New Testament where "worship" and "music" are connected in scripture. Not one place. There are scriptures which speak of musical expression for the purpose of praise and thanksgiving, and there are other scriptures that speak about worship in different contexts, but never the two together.

Oh and, by the way, did I mention that there is not one place in the New Testament where "music" and "worship" are mentioned in connection with one another?

There is actually only one place where "worship" is discussed in terms of the New Covenant, and that is in the dialog between Jesus and the Samaritan woman at the well in John 4. There Jesus defined what it would be to us.
Ephesians 5:18-21 (NIV)

Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit, speaking to one another with psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit. Sing and make music from your heart to the Lord, always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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BarlyGurl

Guest
#18
I DO think greggy could use an attitude adjustment.

I also did read the ENTIRE OP... it is pretty incisive.

I think some of you have commented without reading it entirely... and some of you are mocking just for the cause to mock... and that is truly shameful.
 
V

VioletReigns

Guest
#19
To reply, or not to reply? That is the question.............:confused:

reply.jpg
 
B

BarlyGurl

Guest
#20
I believe this was written by Garth D. Wiebe, one of the most legalistic fanatics I've read in awhile.
Having legalistic tendency does not mean the exegesis is necessarily in error... one is literature expository the other is the "heart".