Three Gods or one? Explain the Trinity.

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Apr 5, 2020
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#61
I'll show you something I have found.

This is from 1 John 5:7

Aramaic:
ܘܪܘܚܐ ܡܣܗܕܐ ܕܗܝ ܪܘܚܐ ܐܝܬܝܗ ܫܪܪܐ
7 And The Rukha {The Spirit} testifies; because that One, The Rukha {The Spirit}, is The Truth.

Greek:
7 seeing that three there are that are testifying, the spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are for the one thing."

But look at the KJV which is 1600 years later.

KJV:
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

How come the KJV does not say same thing as the older and more original texts?
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#62
Which makes what these early first Church Fathers were claiming to be both interesting and questionable. They had access to the "original materials." Does that mean translation is incorrect from that time on or has someone fouled played with the Scriptures we have today?
this makes me think of Isaak Newton, who had access to some pretty ancient text at trinity college, what he read threw up a lot of red flags concerning the doctrine of the trinity. of course he had to keep his mouth shut about it due to fear of persecution. had he freely spoke his mind on his thoughts concerning the doctrine he could have been fired from his job, had his scientific work seized and thrown in jail.
 
Apr 5, 2020
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#63
I'll show you something I have found.

This is from 1 John 5:7

Aramaic:
ܘܪܘܚܐ ܡܣܗܕܐ ܕܗܝ ܪܘܚܐ ܐܝܬܝܗ ܫܪܪܐ
7 And The Rukha {The Spirit} testifies; because that One, The Rukha {The Spirit}, is The Truth.

Greek:
7 seeing that three there are that are testifying, the spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are for the one thing."

But look at the KJV which is 1600 years later.

KJV:
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

How come the KJV does not say same thing as the older and more original texts?


Here the Aramaic matches the Greek, which makes sense since the Greek was translated from the Aramaic.


ܘܐܝܬܝܗܘܢ ܬܠܬܐ ܣܗܕܝܢ ܪܘܚܐ ܘܡܝܐ ܘܕܡܐ ܘܬܠܬܝܗܘܢ ܒܚܕ ܐܢܘܢ
8 And there are three testifying: The Rukha {The Spirit}, and The Water, and The Blood. And these three are in One.

But it still does not match the KJV.
Why does the KJV not match?
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#64
I'll show you something I have found.

This is from 1 John 5:7

Aramaic:
ܘܪܘܚܐ ܡܣܗܕܐ ܕܗܝ ܪܘܚܐ ܐܝܬܝܗ ܫܪܪܐ
7 And The Rukha {The Spirit} testifies; because that One, The Rukha {The Spirit}, is The Truth.

Greek:
7 seeing that three there are that are testifying, the spirit, and the water, and the blood, and the three are for the one thing."

But look at the KJV which is 1600 years later.

KJV:
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

How come the KJV does not say same thing as the older and more original texts?
didnt the Almighty Father Himself command not to take away or add to His word?
 
Apr 5, 2020
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#65
this makes me think of Isaak Newton, who had access to some pretty ancient text at trinity college, what he read threw up a lot of red flags concerning the doctrine of the trinity. of course he had to keep his mouth shut about it due to fear of persecution. had he freely spoke his mind on his thoughts concerning the doctrine he could have been fired from his job, had his scientific work seized and thrown in jail.

Yes, I always thought it was interesting that the Founders of Science (Newton - Galileo and others) were Believers of God, but any time they questioned the Catholic Regime' and doctrine, they were punished for it.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#68
Yes, I always thought it was interesting that the Founders of Science (Newton - Galileo and others) were Believers of God, but any time they questioned the Catholic Regime' and doctrine, they were punished for it.
so many scientist were atheist but its interesting that when you look at a few of the greatest scientist ever, like Newton, Einstein and Tesla, they were very passionate of their spiritual beliefs. Its also interesting that these three that I mentioned were not trinitarians. Maybe an exception for Tesla but his trinity concepts would have lined up more with the Plato / Aristotle school of thought.
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#69
Amen, so why is the KJV changing and adding to the Word of God?
im not a big fan of the KJV, bad source text IMO, but this is not a source text or translation issue.

if i was in a church and i found out they were editing the holy scriptures, i would never believe anything they taught again.
 
Apr 5, 2020
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#70
Even the Latin Vulgate, from the FIFTH Century follows the Aramaic and Greek:

7 quia tres sunt qui testimonium dant

And there are Three who give testimony

8 Spiritus et aqua et sanguis et tres unum sunt

the spirit and the water and the blood. And these three are one.




So, we have the Aramaic, it's translation to the Greek, and then the Latin Vulgate with 5 Centuries of one another writing same thing.

So then, why does the KJV change it?
 
Jul 23, 2018
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#71
im not understanding what your trying to say. that passage says nothing about Jesus creating all things. did you quote the wrong passage by mistake?
John 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The word was with God from the beginning
All things made by the word


14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him

Jesus is the creator

Col 1
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Jesus as creator
Heb 2
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
 
Apr 5, 2020
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#72
I always thought when I discovered this what was their intent for adding a different verse.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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#73
Jp green has an interlinear based on the textus receptus

Reads almost identical to the kjv
 
Apr 5, 2020
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#75

Deuteronomy

Well-known member
Jun 11, 2018
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#76
do you or anyone know when the trinity officially became a doctrine and started being taught in churches?
Here's something on that seems like it might be useful.

The Didache
“After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70]).

Ignatius of Antioch
“[T]o the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God” (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]).

“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” (ibid., 18:2).

Justin Martyr
“We will prove that we worship him reasonably; for we have learned that he is the Son of the true God himself, that he holds a second place, and the Spirit of prophecy a third. For this they accuse us of madness, saying that we attribute to a crucified man a place second to the unchangeable and eternal God, the Creator of all things; but they are ignorant of the mystery which lies therein” (First Apology 13:5–6 [A.D. 151]).

Theophilus of Antioch
“It is the attribute of God, of the most high and almighty and of the living God, not only to be everywhere, but also to see and hear all; for he can in no way be contained in a place. . . . The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity: God, his Word, and his Wisdom” (To Autolycus 2:15 [A.D. 181]).

Irenaeus
“For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, the Father Almighty . . . and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit” (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian
“We do indeed believe that there is only one God, but we believe that under this dispensation, or, as we say, oikonomia, there is also a Son of this one only God, his Word, who proceeded from him and through whom all things were made and without whom nothing was made. . . . We believe he was sent down by the Father, in accord with his own promise, the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete, the sanctifier of the faith of those who believe in the Father and the Son, and in the Holy Spirit” (Against Praxeas 2 [A.D. 216]).

“And at the same time the mystery of the oikonomia is safeguarded, for the unity is distributed in a Trinity. Placed in order, the three are the Father, Son, and Spirit. They are three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in being, but in form; not in power, but in kind; of one being, however, and one condition and one power, because he is one God of whom degrees and forms and kinds are taken into account in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (ibid.).

“Keep always in mind the rule of faith which I profess and by which I bear witness that the Father and the Son and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and then you will understand what is meant by it. Observe now that I say the Father is other [distinct], the Son is other, and the Spirit is other. This statement is wrongly understood by every uneducated or perversely disposed individual, as if it meant diversity and implied by that diversity a separation of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit” (ibid., 9).

“Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent persons, who are yet distinct one from another. These three are, one essence, not one person, as it is said, ‘I and my Father are one’ [John 10:30], in respect of unity of being not singularity of number” (ibid., 25).

Origen
“For we do not hold that which the heretics imagine: that some part of the being of God was converted into the Son, or that the Son was procreated by the Father from non-existent substances, that is, from a being outside himself, so that there was a time when he [the Son] did not exist” (The Fundamental Doctrines 4:4:1 [A.D. 225]).

“For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds every sense in which not only temporal but even eternal may be understood. It is all other things, indeed, which are outside the Trinity, which are to be measured by time and ages” (ibid.).

Hippolytus
“The Word alone of this God is from God himself, wherefore also the Word is God, being the being of God” (Refutation of All Heresies 10:29 [A.D. 228]).

Pope Dionysius
“Next, then, I may properly turn to those who divide and cut apart and destroy the most sacred proclamation of the Church of God, making of it [the Trinity], as it were, three powers, distinct substances, and three godheads. . . . [Some heretics] proclaim that there are in some way three gods, when they divide the sacred unity into three substances foreign to each other and completely separate” (Letter to Dionysius of Alexandria 1 [A.D. 262]).

“Therefore, the divine Trinity must be gathered up and brought together in one, a summit, as it were, I mean the omnipotent God of the universe. . . . It is blasphemy, then, and not a common one but the worst, to say that the Son is in any way a handiwork [creature]. . . . But if the Son came into being [was created], there was a time when these attributes did not exist; and, consequently, there was a time when God was without them, which is utterly absurd” (ibid., 1–2).

“Neither, then, may we divide into three godheads the wonderful and divine unity. . . . Rather, we must believe in God, the Father Almighty; and in Christ Jesus, his Son; and in the Holy Spirit; and that the Word is united to the God of the universe. ‘For,’ he says, ‘The Father and I are one,’ and ‘I am in the Father, and the Father in me’” (ibid., 3).

Gregory the Wonderworker
“There is one God. . . . There is a perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty, neither divided nor estranged. Wherefore there is nothing either created or in servitude in the Trinity; nor anything superinduced, as if at some former period it was non-existent, and at some later period it was introduced. And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides ever” (Declaration of Faith [A.D. 265]).

Sechnall of Ireland
“Hymns, with Revelation and the Psalms of God [Patrick] sings, and does expound the same for the edifying of God’s people. This law he holds in the Trinity of the sacred Name and teaches one being in three persons” (Hymn in Praise of St. Patrick 22 [A.D. 444]).

Patrick of Ireland
“I bind to myself today the strong power of an invocation of the Trinity—the faith of the Trinity in unity, the Creator of the universe” (The Breastplate of St. Patrick 1 [A.D. 447]).

“[T]here is no other God, nor has there been heretofore, nor will there be hereafter, except God the Father unbegotten, without beginning, from whom is all beginning, upholding all things, as we say, and his Son Jesus Christ, whom we likewise to confess to have always been with the Father—before the world’s beginning. . . . Jesus Christ is the Lord and God in whom we believe . . . and who has poured out on us abundantly the Holy Spirit . . . whom we confess and adore as one God in the Trinity of the sacred Name” (Confession of St. Patrick 4 [A.D. 452]).

Augustine
“All the Catholic interpreters of the divine books of the Old and New Testaments whom I have been able to read, who wrote before me about the Trinity, which is God, intended to teach in accord with the Scriptures that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are of one and the same substance constituting a divine unity with an inseparable equality; and therefore there are not three gods but one God, although the Father begot the Son, and therefore he who is the Son is not the Father; and the Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son but only the Spirit of the Father and of the Son, himself, too, coequal to the Father and to the Son and belonging to the unity of the Trinity” (The Trinity1:4:7 [A.D. 408]).

Fulgence of Ruspe
“See, in short you have it that the Father is one, the Son another, and the Holy Spirit another; in Person, each is other, but in nature they are not other. In this regard he says: ‘The Father and I, we are one’ (John 10:30). He teaches us that one refers to their nature, and we are to their Persons. In like manner it is said: ‘There are three who bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Spirit; and these three are one’ (1 John 5:7)” (The Trinity 4:1–2 [c. A.D. 515]).

“But in the one true God and Trinity it is naturally true not only that God is one but also that he is a Trinity, for the reason that the true God himself is a Trinity of Persons and one in nature. Through this natural unity the whole Father is in the Son and in the Holy Spirit, and the whole Holy Spirit, too, is in the Father and in the Son. None of these is outside any of the others; because no one of them precedes any other of them in eternity or exceeds any other in greatness, or is superior to any other in power” (The Rule of Faith 4 [c. A.D. 523).​

~Deut
 
Apr 5, 2020
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#77
Here's something on that seems like it might be useful.

The Didache
“After the foregoing instructions, baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, in living [running] water. . . . If you have neither, pour water three times on the head, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit” (Didache 7:1 [A.D. 70]).​


If I may ask?
The Didache is supposed to be written by the Apostles. But 3 times we see 3 different Apostles Baptizing in Jesus Name and dunking them full immersed in water.

How can the Didache be factual when it does not line up with Scripture (Book of Acts)?
 
J

jaybird88

Guest
#78
John 1 King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The word was with God from the beginning
All things made by the word


14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
18 No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him

Jesus is the creator
still makes no sense, there is no mention of Jesus creating all things in this passage

Col 1
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Jesus as creator
Heb 2
9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
all things created "through" the image is pretty difficult to explain its quite a bit more complex then Jesus is the creator.
 
Apr 5, 2020
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#79
Acts 8:36
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

Acts 8:38
And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

It does not say the water is running.
 
Apr 5, 2020
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#80
I think the Didache is a Catholic fabrication. Only the Catholics put water on your head, most every church I have known dunks you and that water is not running, it's in a tank and sits there until someone wants to be baptized.