Three Gods or one? Explain the Trinity.
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We know for a fact that the Church Fathers, Ignatius and Polycarp, were direct Disciples of John the Beloved Disciple and they believe this:
God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels,
........... begat Him, emitting Him
........... along with His own wisdom before all things.
but the wisdom [Spirit in this instance is Sophia] of God which was in Him, and
........... His holy Word which was always present with Him.
Can we assume the Apostle John taught them this?
God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels,
........... begat Him, emitting Him
........... along with His own wisdom before all things.
but the wisdom [Spirit in this instance is Sophia] of God which was in Him, and
........... His holy Word which was always present with Him.
Can we assume the Apostle John taught them this?
Maybe I can help with that. This is my favorite subject!
The Holy Spirit has
-Intelligence
-A Will
-Emotion
Intelligence:
In 1 Cor 2:10-11, Paul writes of the Spirit's intimate knowledge of "the deep things of God" -unarguably a description of intelligence:
“For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.” (1 Corinthians 2:10–11).
All the way through this passage, divine intelligence is ascribed to the Spirit. Paul insists that the Holy Spirit "knows" the things of God. Not only does he know these things, but he also "teaches" us, helping us to compare "spiritual things with spiritual" vs 13.
Will:
The Holy Spirit is also said to have a will. In talking about the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Cor 12, Paul said that the Holy Spirit distributes "to each one as He wills" (vs 11). It is the Holy Spirit who decides what kind of gift each believer should receive. The act of choosing demands that He have a will. In Acts 15:28 the apostles prefaced their judgement on a question of church doctrine by saying "it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us". Here they ascribed to the Spirit the same kind of judgment-making ability that they possessed.
In Acts 16:6-7, The Holy Spirit forbade them from going to Asia. Only a person could forbid someone to do something?
Emotion:
The Spirit has emotion.
Paul warned the Ephesians, "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God" (Eph 4:30).
Isaiah wrote "But they rebelled and vexed His Holy Spirit; therefore He was turned to be their enemy" (Isa 63:10).
You can vex the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit loves us (Rom 15:30). "Now I urge you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God for me"
The Holy Spirit is treated as a person
-The Spirit can be lied to....Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5. "Why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit?"
-The Spirit can be resisted.....Stephen in his defense recorded in Acts 7:51 said to the Jews "You are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did,so do you."
-The Spirit can be blasphemed.....Mark 3:28 "Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, ans whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation."
The Holy Spirit acts as a person
-The Holy Spirit speaks.....“While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”” (Acts 13:2)
-The Spirit intercedes.....“In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groaning too deep for words;” (Romans 8:26)
-The Spirit teaches.....““But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.” (John 14:26);
““You gave Your good Spirit to instruct them, Your manna You did not withhold from their mouth, And You gave them water for their thirst.” (Nehemiah 9:20)
-The Spirit communes.....“For indeed He was crucified because of weakness, yet He lives because of the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, yet we will live with Him because of the power of God directed toward you.” (2 Corinthians 13:4)
-The Spirit strives.....“Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”” (Genesis 6:3)
-The Spirit guides.....“They passed through the Phrygian and Galatian region, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia; and after they came to Mysia, they were trying to go into Bithynia, and the Spirit of Jesus did not permit them;” (Acts 16:6–7).
The Holy Spirit has
-Intelligence
-A Will
-Emotion
Intelligence:
In 1 Cor 2:10-11, Paul writes of the Spirit's intimate knowledge of "the deep things of God" -unarguably a description of intelligence:
“For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God.” (1 Corinthians 2:10–11).
All the way through this passage, divine intelligence is ascribed to the Spirit. Paul insists that the Holy Spirit "knows" the things of God. Not only does he know these things, but he also "teaches" us, helping us to compare "spiritual things with spiritual" vs 13.
Will:
The Holy Spirit is also said to have a will. In talking about the gifts of the Spirit in 1 Cor 12, Paul said that the Holy Spirit distributes "to each one as He wills" (vs 11). It is the Holy Spirit who decides what kind of gift each believer should receive. The act of choosing demands that He have a will. In Acts 15:28 the apostles prefaced their judgement on a question of church doctrine by saying "it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us". Here they ascribed to the Spirit the same kind of judgment-making ability that they possessed.
In Acts 16:6-7, The Holy Spirit forbade them from going to Asia. Only a person could forbid someone to do something?
Emotion:
The Spirit has emotion.
Paul warned the Ephesians, "Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God" (Eph 4:30).
Isaiah wrote "But they rebelled and vexed His Holy Spirit; therefore He was turned to be their enemy" (Isa 63:10).
You can vex the Holy Spirit.
The Holy Spirit loves us (Rom 15:30). "Now I urge you, brethren, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to strive together with me in your prayers to God for me"
The Holy Spirit is treated as a person
-The Spirit can be lied to....Ananias and Sapphira in Acts 5. "Why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit?"
-The Spirit can be resisted.....Stephen in his defense recorded in Acts 7:51 said to the Jews "You are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did,so do you."
-The Spirit can be blasphemed.....Mark 3:28 "Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, ans whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation."
The Holy Spirit acts as a person
-The Holy Spirit speaks.....“While they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”” (Acts 13:2)
-The Spirit intercedes.....“In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groaning too deep for words;” (Romans 8:26)
-The Spirit teaches.....““But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.” (John 14:26);
““You gave Your good Spirit to instruct them, Your manna You did not withhold from their mouth, And You gave them water for their thirst.” (Nehemiah 9:20)
-The Spirit communes.....“For indeed He was crucified because of weakness, yet He lives because of the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, yet we will live with Him because of the power of God directed toward you.” (2 Corinthians 13:4)
-The Spirit strives.....“Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.”” (Genesis 6:3)
-The Spirit guides.....“They passed through the Phrygian and Galatian region, having been forbidden by the Holy Spirit to speak the word in Asia; and after they came to Mysia, they were trying to go into Bithynia, and the Spirit of Jesus did not permit them;” (Acts 16:6–7).
I do not disagree with any point you are making. I only question because if from the materials available to the Church Fathers, including a first hand account from the Disciple John, 1 of Jesus' 12, made them see it how I showed it from the Church Fathers view, how do we know what we read in the KJV is true concerning the Holy Spirit. From the Aramaic and Greek translation of the Aramaic, those older views don't even come close to what we read in the KJV.
Perfect example of what I am saying:
KJV:
John 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
All 3 verses the KJV calls the Comforter [HE]
Same verses from Aramaic translated to Greek:
16 And I shall be asking the Father, and He will be giving you another consoler, that it, indeed, may be with you for the eon
26 Now the consoler, the holy spirit, which the Father will be sending in My name, that will be teaching you all, and reminding you of all that I said to you."
26 Now, whenever the consoler which I shall be sending you from the Father may be coming, the spirit of truth which is going out from the Father, that will be testifying concerning Me."
The originals call the Holy Spirit [IT and THAT] They do not make the Holy Spirit a Person like the KJV does.
KJV:
John 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:26
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
John 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
All 3 verses the KJV calls the Comforter [HE]
Same verses from Aramaic translated to Greek:
16 And I shall be asking the Father, and He will be giving you another consoler, that it, indeed, may be with you for the eon
26 Now the consoler, the holy spirit, which the Father will be sending in My name, that will be teaching you all, and reminding you of all that I said to you."
26 Now, whenever the consoler which I shall be sending you from the Father may be coming, the spirit of truth which is going out from the Father, that will be testifying concerning Me."
The originals call the Holy Spirit [IT and THAT] They do not make the Holy Spirit a Person like the KJV does.
When you use the Aramaic translated into Greek, you can better understand what the Church Fathers were claiming here:
God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels,
........... begat Him, emitting Him
........... along with His own wisdom before all things.
but the wisdom [Spirit in this instance is Sophia] of God which was in Him, and
........... His holy Word which was always present with Him.
Just because something is older, that doesn't mean it's more true. There are thousands of ancient writings about the 1st century, none of which are Scripture. Only 66 books were God-breathed. The Hebrew manuscripts of the O.T.+ 5 chapters of Aramaic in Daniel, and The Greek manuscripts of the N.T.
There are no "original Aramaic inspired manuscripts". Yes some people spoke Aramaic, but the N.T. was written in Koine Greek.
Every New Testament author:
-Matthew
-Mark
-Luke
-John
-Paul
-(Hebrew writer)
-Peter
-James
-Jude
....All of their original scrolls were written in Greek. God chose Greek to be the language he conveys His Word to us in the New testament.
There are no "original Aramaic inspired manuscripts". Yes some people spoke Aramaic, but the N.T. was written in Koine Greek.
Every New Testament author:
-Matthew
-Mark
-Luke
-John
-Paul
-(Hebrew writer)
-Peter
-James
-Jude
....All of their original scrolls were written in Greek. God chose Greek to be the language he conveys His Word to us in the New testament.
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I do not agree because Eshu (Yeshua) and His Disciples ALL spoke Aramaic as a natural language which is similar to Hebrew. And we know for a fact the Gospels were first written in Aramaic because when the Greek translated it did not have words for the Aramaic and left those Aramaic words in the text.
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- Most scholars and an ancient tradition that considers the Gospel of Matthew to have been written originally in Hebrew or Aramaic and translated into Greek soon after. Most of the dialogue the Greek records, however, would have been Aramaic and probably the occasional Hebrew.
www.quora.com/Were-the-gospels-originally-written-in-Ancient-Hebrew-Aramaic-or-Gree
- It is generally agreed by historians that Jesus and his disciples primarily spoke Aramaic (Jewish Palestinian Aramaic), the common language of Judea in the first century AD, most likely a Galilean dialect distinguishable from that of Jerusalem.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_of_Jesus
Jesus and Aramaic in the Gospels - Mark D. Roberts
www.beliefnet.com/columnists/markdroberts/2010/...
One of the most striking Aramaic sentences found on the lips of Jesus in the Gospels is: eli eli lema sabachthani (Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34 uses eloi instead of eli). The sentence is then ...
The Real Jesus Revealed in Original Aramaic - Aramaic English ...
www.aent.org/real-jesus-revealed-original-aramaic
Dead Sea Scrolls were written in Hebrew and Aramaic. Aramaic was spoken in the land of Israel from 200 BCE to 200 CE by the Jewish people. Khabouris (or Yonan Codex) is a recent Aramaic New Testament discovery that has confirmed the language of Jesus and the Apostles to be Aramaic.
www.beliefnet.com/columnists/markdroberts/2010/...
One of the most striking Aramaic sentences found on the lips of Jesus in the Gospels is: eli eli lema sabachthani (Matthew 27:46; Mark 15:34 uses eloi instead of eli). The sentence is then ...
The Real Jesus Revealed in Original Aramaic - Aramaic English ...
www.aent.org/real-jesus-revealed-original-aramaic
Dead Sea Scrolls were written in Hebrew and Aramaic. Aramaic was spoken in the land of Israel from 200 BCE to 200 CE by the Jewish people. Khabouris (or Yonan Codex) is a recent Aramaic New Testament discovery that has confirmed the language of Jesus and the Apostles to be Aramaic.
Yes, and its also generally (actually its about 99.7%) agreed by historians that the entire New Testament was written in Greek. The NT was not written in Aramaic, the native language of Jesus and his disciples, or in Latin, the language of Rome, but in a common Greek dialect of the first century. Why was it written in Greek? The use of this language is chiefly due to the efforts of one extraordinary man: Alexander of Macedon (356–323 B.C.).
As Alexander marched eastward, he brought his Greek culture with him. Although “Hellenization,” or the spread of Greek culture away from its homeland, began centuries earlier with Greek traders and colonists, the process was greatly accelerated by the campaigns of Alexander. As a student of Greek learning, he envisioned a union of East and West through Greek culture.
The type of Greek language disseminated by Alexander and his men was not the classical Attic of Aristotle (although it was dominant) but koinē (lit. “common”) Greek. Koine was a vernacular Greek, a more simplified form of this classical language. This simplified and adaptable Greek dialect soon supplanted Aramaic, the language of the Persian Empire, becoming the international tongue of the Mediterranean world. Its usefulness as a common language lasted almost a millennium (322 B.C.–A.D. 529, or from the death of Aristotle to Emperor Justinian’s closing of Plato’s original Academy).
The first human author to write down the biblical record was Moses. He was commanded by God to take on this task, for Exodus 34:27 records God’s words to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” And what language did he use? He wrote in his native language, called Hebrew. Hebrew is one of a group of languages known as the Semitic languages which were spoken throughout that part of the world, then called Mesopotamia, located today mainly in Iraq. Their alphabet consisted of 22 letters, all consonants. (Imagine having an alphabet with no vowels! Much later they did add vowels.) During the thousand years of its composition, almost the entire Old Testament was written in Hebrew. But a few chapters in the prophecies of Ezra and Daniel and one verse in Jeremiah were written in a language called Aramaic. This language became very popular in the ancient world and actually displaced many other languages. Aramaic even became the common language spoken in Israel in Jesus’ time, and it was likely the language He spoke day by day. Some Aramaic words were even used by the Gospel writers in the New Testament.
The New Testament, however, was written in Greek. This seems strange, since you might think it would be either Hebrew or Aramaic. However, Greek was the language of scholarship during the years of the composition of the New Testament from 50 to 100 AD. The fact is that many Jews could not even read Hebrew anymore, and this disturbed the Jewish leaders a lot! So, around 300 BC a translation of the Old Testament from Hebrew into Greek was undertaken, and it was completed around 200 BC. Gradually this Greek translation of the Old Testament, called the Septuagint, was widely accepted and was even used in many synagogues. It also became a wonderful missionary tool for the early Christians, for now the Greeks could read God’s Word in their own tongue.
As Alexander marched eastward, he brought his Greek culture with him. Although “Hellenization,” or the spread of Greek culture away from its homeland, began centuries earlier with Greek traders and colonists, the process was greatly accelerated by the campaigns of Alexander. As a student of Greek learning, he envisioned a union of East and West through Greek culture.
The type of Greek language disseminated by Alexander and his men was not the classical Attic of Aristotle (although it was dominant) but koinē (lit. “common”) Greek. Koine was a vernacular Greek, a more simplified form of this classical language. This simplified and adaptable Greek dialect soon supplanted Aramaic, the language of the Persian Empire, becoming the international tongue of the Mediterranean world. Its usefulness as a common language lasted almost a millennium (322 B.C.–A.D. 529, or from the death of Aristotle to Emperor Justinian’s closing of Plato’s original Academy).
The first human author to write down the biblical record was Moses. He was commanded by God to take on this task, for Exodus 34:27 records God’s words to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.” And what language did he use? He wrote in his native language, called Hebrew. Hebrew is one of a group of languages known as the Semitic languages which were spoken throughout that part of the world, then called Mesopotamia, located today mainly in Iraq. Their alphabet consisted of 22 letters, all consonants. (Imagine having an alphabet with no vowels! Much later they did add vowels.) During the thousand years of its composition, almost the entire Old Testament was written in Hebrew. But a few chapters in the prophecies of Ezra and Daniel and one verse in Jeremiah were written in a language called Aramaic. This language became very popular in the ancient world and actually displaced many other languages. Aramaic even became the common language spoken in Israel in Jesus’ time, and it was likely the language He spoke day by day. Some Aramaic words were even used by the Gospel writers in the New Testament.
The New Testament, however, was written in Greek. This seems strange, since you might think it would be either Hebrew or Aramaic. However, Greek was the language of scholarship during the years of the composition of the New Testament from 50 to 100 AD. The fact is that many Jews could not even read Hebrew anymore, and this disturbed the Jewish leaders a lot! So, around 300 BC a translation of the Old Testament from Hebrew into Greek was undertaken, and it was completed around 200 BC. Gradually this Greek translation of the Old Testament, called the Septuagint, was widely accepted and was even used in many synagogues. It also became a wonderful missionary tool for the early Christians, for now the Greeks could read God’s Word in their own tongue.