Tongues Again???

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BenFTW

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Oct 7, 2012
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Thats part of the problem. Cessationists always point to Pentecost as the end all and be all of the gift of tongues but in fact it is only a glimpse of their intended purpose. Corinthians dives deeper and informs you of the many ways in which the gift can be operated in and what for.

The fact that at Pentecost no interpreter was needed for those tongues (to be understood) but later in Corinthians it speaks of tongues that need to be interpreted (supernaturally) ought to raise eyebrows that there is a difference of operation. There is more to the gift of tongues than was revealed at Pentecost.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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Your beliefs are highly debatable which is what we are doing. You ignore any scripture that contradicts what you believe. You read other scripture with a classic slant to support your contentions.
This is really ironic. Also, you'd actually have to show some scripture that contradicts what I believe to rightly make such an assertion.
You should realize, that the message you wrote to me seems to me a good admonition for yourself.

We've discussed this issue of gifts of the Spirit several times in the past. I've noticed that on several occasions, you argued that miracles were for Jews not Gentiles. You'd quote the verse from I Corinthians 1 about the Jews seeking a sign. I'd point that that this was what the Jews sought. The Jews seeking a sign does not mean that God, in His purpose for signs, only uses them for Jews. I referred to Acts 15 where Paul and Barnabas told of the signs they did among the Gentiles. I referred to the healing of the Gentile lame man in Lystra. God did signs among the Gentiles.

But then you made the argument again. You've probably done it three times since I pointed out your argument contradicted scripture. I don't recall your mentioning the idea of signs just being for Jews on this go-round, which is good, since it may mean you've learned to stop contradicting the scriptures I'd mentioned. But it would have been nice if, the first time I pointed out your assertions violated scripture, you'd said, "That's a valid point" and stopped with your argument.

If you would be willing and able to acquiesce when you have a weak argument or one that is not airtight, you might be willing to do so over I Corinthians 13. The fact that you disagree with other posters on the issue we are discussing actually disproves your interpretation of I Corinthians 13. If we really did have perfect knowledge, we would not be disgreeing over doctrine. And if you were to only consider cessationists to be true brothers, notice that you believe that only three gifts have ceased, while other cessationists are also arguing that gifts of miracles and healing have ceased, too. If your knowledge were perfect, you would not disagree.

No belief, no matter how ardently held if it contradicts scripture has any virtue. To contradict scripture in one point is the same as contradicting all of scripture.
I realize you are ardent about your beliefs. I am ardent about my beliefs that we should actually believe the scriptures. I believe that the word of knowledge is given by the Spirit as the Spirit wills. I believe the same thing about speaking in tongues, interpretation, and prophecy. I believe we should covet to prophesy and forbid not to speak with tongues. I believe we should obey the admonition of scripture to quench no the Spirit and to despise not prophesyings. Does it bother you that your one weak interpretation of I Corinthians 13 leads you to contradict these scriptures?
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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I'm not sure the bible says tongues are for the non-believing jew. What about when Peter went to see Cornelius' house and they, being gentiles, received the Spirit and spoke in tongues?
Evan, if you know any thing about Jews you will know that every Prophet had to validate that what he spoke came from GOD by doing some kind miraculous sign, either himself, or by another Prophet in his presence.


1 Corinthians 14:21-22 (NASB)
[SUP]21 [/SUP] In the Law it is written, "BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME," says the Lord.
[SUP]22 [/SUP] So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.

1 Corinthians 1:22 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

Mark 16:20 (HCSB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word by the accompanying signs.


That is what it took to Confirm to Jews that the new revelation the Apostles were proclaiming came from GOD, and which became our N.T.

Who then were the unbelieving Jews at the house of Cornelius? Jews at the time of Christ, did not believe God would save Gentiles to the same degree that HE saved Jews. In fact, they did not believe they were permitted to enter the house of a Gentile without becoming defiled. That is why Peter's dream was necessary before sending him to the house of the Gentile Cornelius. In fact it is logical that several of them that came with Peter, remained at the doorway at first. Therefore the unbelieving Jews were the Christ following Jews who did not Believe that GOD would saved the Cornelius and his family to the same degree that He saved them. Even if Cornelius wanted to go the Temple the next day, he would not have been permitted to enter beyond the outer Courtyard of the Gentiles. Notice where the Court of the Gentiles was located, and that is because of their unbelief that God saved Gentiles the same as He saved Jews. Plus only Jewish men were permitted to go beyond the Women's Court for Jewish women, and only the High Priest could enter the Holy of Holies once a year.





Acts 10:45-47 (GWT)
[SUP]45 [/SUP] All the believers who were circumcised and who had come with Peter were amazed that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured on people who were not Jewish.
[SUP]46 [/SUP] They heard these non-Jewish people speaking in other languages and praising God. Then Peter said,
[SUP]47 [/SUP] “No one can refuse to baptize these people with water. They have received the Holy Spirit in the same way that we did.”


Anything Less than what happened to Disciples, and those Jewish Believers would have been justified in falsely continuing to believe that GOD does not save Gentiles to the same Degree as He saves JEWS who Receive Jesus as their Messiah. Therefore that means that at the house of Cornelius there also had to be the Mighty Wind, the Tongues of Fire, and the unbelieving Jews hearing what Cornelius and His family said in their own native dialect.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Thats part of the problem. Cessationists always point to Pentecost as the end all and be all of the gift of tongues but in fact it is only a glimpse of their intended purpose. Corinthians dives deeper and informs you of the many ways in which the gift can be operated in and what for.

The fact that at Pentecost no interpreter was needed for those tongues (to be understood) but later in Corinthians it speaks of tongues that need to be interpreted (supernaturally) ought to raise eyebrows that there is a difference of operation. There is more to the gift of tongues than was revealed at Pentecost.
That's the problem with those who claim to speak in tongues they always point to Corinth as to what the church was to do. They make Corinth to be an example of what to do instead of a corrective passage for a church that was in disorder.

Paul is saying it's OK to speak in different languages but someone must be able to translate the language so all can benefit from what is being said. How can one know if what is being said in a language they do not know is the truth except another translate it?

Paul never said there were angelic languages only used the phrase to illustrate that without charity even such a language would be without merit.

Believers ought to have a close relationship with the Savior that is so personal that no matter what they can feel at liberty to converse with the Lord as with a Father. Scripture teaches that the gospel is not about tongues but of testifying of the saving grace of God.

The ministry of Christ and the ministry of the Holy Spirit is about the saving of souls that are lost in sin. Those things of eternal consequence are why Jesus gave Himself an atonement for our sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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That's the problem with those who claim to speak in tongues they always point to Corinth as to what the church was to do. They make Corinth to be an example of what to do instead of a corrective passage for a church that was in disorder.

Paul is saying it's OK to speak in different languages but someone must be able to translate the language so all can benefit from what is being said. How can one know if what is being said in a language they do not know is the truth except another translate it?

Paul never said there were angelic languages only used the phrase to illustrate that without charity even such a language would be without merit.

Believers ought to have a close relationship with the Savior that is so personal that no matter what they can feel at liberty to converse with the Lord as with a Father. Scripture teaches that the gospel is not about tongues but of testifying of the saving grace of God.

The ministry of Christ and the ministry of the Holy Spirit is about the saving of souls that are lost in sin. Those things of eternal consequence are why Jesus gave Himself an atonement for our sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Such a naturalistic understanding of a spiritual gift. Do you suppose the gift of healing today is giving someone a Tylenol? :rolleyes:
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
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Such a naturalistic understanding of a spiritual gift. Do you suppose the gift of healing today is giving someone a Tylenol? :rolleyes:
God gifts healing even unto the wicked and unbelieving so in some cases Tylenol works with Gods approval and some times Advil works better.

Have some hot cocoa and meditate on Gods word. Look upon Christ on the cross and consider that the Babe in the manger was there for you and all mankind. then ask God what is important.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
Feb 21, 2012
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That's the problem with those who claim to speak in tongues they always point to Corinth as to what the church was to do. They make Corinth to be an example of what to do instead of a corrective passage for a church that was in disorder.
Yes, and if Paul were here today - he would probably send out another letter in the same vein for the manifestations of the Spirit (gift of holy spirit) are still to this day being used inappropriately by some.
Paul is saying it's OK to speak in different languages but someone must be able to translate the language so all can benefit from what is being said. How can one know if what is being said in a language they do not know is the truth except another translate it?
Actually the one who speaks in tongues should interpret . . . I would that you all spake with tongues, but rather that you prophesied: for greater is he that prophesies than he that speaks with tongues UNLESS HE interpret. (14:5) If any man speak in a tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. (14:27)
Paul never said there were angelic languages only used the phrase to illustrate that without charity even such a language would be without merit.
I can see that . . .
Believers ought to have a close relationship with the Savior that is so personal that no matter what they can feel at liberty to converse with the Lord as with a Father. Scripture teaches that the gospel is not about tongues but of testifying of the saving grace of God.

The ministry of Christ and the ministry of the Holy Spirit is about the saving of souls that are lost in sin. Those things of eternal consequence are why Jesus gave Himself an atonement for our sin.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
Yes, and to have a close relationship with someone conversation is involved. If word (message) of knowledge along with tongues have ceased - what and how does God speak to us?

That new creature in you is spirit, that spirit speaks to God in secrets (mysteries) . . . and just as you physical body needs nourishment so does that spirit - new man in you require nourishment . . . the word of God nourishes that new man and worshipping God in spirit and in truth also edifies that new man.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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God gifts healing even unto the wicked and unbelieving so in some cases Tylenol works with Gods approval and some times Advil works better.

Have some hot cocoa and meditate on Gods word. Look upon Christ on the cross and consider that the Babe in the manger was there for you and all mankind. then ask God what is important.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
So you do have a sense of humor? :D Good to know.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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Jesus gave the leaders of the Jews many signs that He was God in flesh..by deliverances, healings, and powerful Words that no man could give in mans wisdom.

But, that doesn't mean that signs are negative in any way. God wants us to believe and trust what He says first...then the power comes. Signs are for those who are unbelievers, true.

They have to be evident or its remains line upon line, precept upon precept...

We are living stones! Speaking Gods Word in faith..with the results manifesting by His Spirit.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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If I could, I would delete this last post.

Posting with a headache isn't wise. lol
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Thats part of the problem. Cessationists always point to Pentecost as the end all and be all of the gift of tongues but in fact it is only a glimpse of their intended purpose. Corinthians dives deeper and informs you of the many ways in which the gift can be operated in and what for.

The fact that at Pentecost no interpreter was needed for those tongues (to be understood) but later in Corinthians it speaks of tongues that need to be interpreted (supernaturally) ought to raise eyebrows that there is a difference of operation. There is more to the gift of tongues than was revealed at Pentecost.
Read it again. The fact is, only unbelieving Jews from every known country were listening to Peter and the disciples speak and hearing in their own dialect. The fact is,in Corinth, the majority of the congregation were NOT JEWS, and some were converts from the Mystery Religions.

Acts 2:5-11 (NIV)
[SUP]5 [/SUP] Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.
[SUP]6 [/SUP] When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard them speaking in his own language.
[SUP]7 [/SUP] Utterly amazed, they asked: "Are not all these men who are speaking Galileans?
[SUP]8 [/SUP] Then how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language?
[SUP]9 [/SUP] Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
[SUP]10 [/SUP] Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome
[SUP]11 [/SUP] (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs--we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!"
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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[video=youtube;GVSLc0cqlZM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVSLc0cqlZM[/video]

John MacArthur - Is Speaking in Tongues Demonic? 1/3

Uploaded on Oct 28, 2010

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

...

worth the 15 minutes if you are undecided.
 
Nov 23, 2016
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Has anybody else on this thread had their posting attachments and private messaging privileges removed ? Wondering why this has happened ? Surely not for my views one would hope ?
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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Has anybody else on this thread had their posting attachments and private messaging privileges removed ? Wondering why this has happened ? Surely not for my views one would hope ?
never heard of that before.
maybe it's just a glitch.
 
Nov 23, 2016
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never heard of that before.
maybe it's just a glitch.
I'm hoping that's all it is. Maybe one of this threads participants is a moderator and can rectify the error. I know that I've done nothing to warrant any such action that I'm aware of ... unless the stuff I've posted publicly has upset somebody ? I'd like to think that this can't be the case :)
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
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I'm hoping that's all it is. Maybe one of this threads participants is a moderator and can rectify the error. I know that I've done nothing to warrant any such action that I'm aware of ... unless the stuff I've posted publicly has upset somebody ? I'd like to think that this can't be the case :)
I don't know why, since cessationism is biblical:)
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Such a naturalistic understanding of a spiritual gift. Do you suppose the gift of healing today is giving someone a Tylenol? :rolleyes:

Sign gifts ceased when the purpose for them was Complete. Paul never even tried to Heal Timothy, but rather gave him a home remedy instead:


Acts 4:22 (HCSB)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] for this sign of healing had been performed on a man over 40 years old.

Mark 16:20 (HCSB)
[SUP]20 [/SUP] And they went out and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them and confirming the word by the accompanying signs.

1 Corinthians 1:22 (KJV)
[SUP]22 [/SUP] For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

1 Timothy 5:23 (HCSB)
[SUP]23 [/SUP] Don’t continue drinking only water, but use a little wine because of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.


Each author had to do at least one sign to confirm that He was speaking words that were inspired by GOD. NOT at least one for each book, but at least one, period and he was confirmed as one GOD was using to present the new revelation.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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Evan, if you know any thing about Jews you will know that every Prophet had to validate that what he spoke came from GOD by doing some kind miraculous sign, either himself, or by another Prophet in his presence.
Where do you get this from? The Deuteronomy test for a prophet was whether his predictions came to past. Look up 'sign' in the Old Testament. In many cases, a sign was a fulfilled prophecy. The prophet that prophesied to Eli gave him a sign, that his sons Hophni and Phineas would die in one day. There are a number of signs of this sort, of the type that fit with the test of a prophet.

The Jews said of John, the he did 'no miracle'. Miracles can be signs, but there is also the fulfilled prophecy sign. Which would did the Jews seek for Jesus to give? He'd already just done a miracle, feeding the five thousand. They asked for a sign. He gave them the sign of Jonah, which was a prediction that He would rise from the dead. When the Jews wanted a sign that he had the authority to cleanse the temple, what sign did He give? He said they would destroy 'this temple' and in three days He would raise it up, another prophecy of the resurrection.
If we look in the Old Testament, it would seem a lot of Israelites went after the false prophets, rather the true ones during certain periods of time, anyway.
1 Corinthians 14:21-22 (NASB)
21 In the Law it is written, "BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME," says the Lord.
22 So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers; but prophecy is for a sign, not to unbelievers but to those who believe.
Paul's conclusion based on the verse is that it is a sign to 'unbelievers.' He does not say unbelieving Jews.

The original prophecy, fulilled in the short-term in the captivity, was to the nation of Israel, more specifically to the northern kingdom. Paul interprets it to speak of a larger principle. Even Gentiles who reject speaking in tongues are following a pattern that we see with Israelites who rejected God even though He communicated to them through men of other tongues and other lips.

When the Assyrians marched the Israelites naked into captivity, maybe with a rod to poke at them to keep them in line or a whip, or however they did it, this was a message the Israelites were supposed to hear.

There are other scriptures that had a more immediate fulfillment or application. 'Out of Egypt have I called my Son applies to Ephraim, which was the leading tribe of the northern kingdom, but applies prophetically to Christ.

You also seem to think that whenever speaking in tongues occurs, that it has to be functioning as a sign to unbelievers. Paul says If an unbeliever or uninstructed person comes into the assembly in his example (a part I see you generally don't quote when making your arguments.) Nowadays, a lot of people think of a church service as the place for evangelism. Back then, the apostles preached in synagogues and public places. Church meetings are for the edification of the saints. It is legitimate to speak in tongues with no unbelievers present at all, in church, if it is interpreted for the edification of the saints.

Tongues are for a sign to unbelievers, but tongues are not only for a sign to unbelievers. Divers tongues are among the gifts given to the church to 'profit withall'. That is also a purpose of the gift. Tongues and interpretation together edify the local assembly. That is also a legitimate purpose of the gift. No unbeliever has to be present for this to take place.

Even if someone took this rigid, unjustifiable view of yours, it would not prove that tongues have no place, since there are plenty of unbelieving Jews. My guess is you would be opposed to speaking in tongues among Messianic Jews, even if they had managed to bring some unbelieving Jews into their meeting.

That is why Peter's dream was necessary before sending him to the house of the Gentile Cornelius. In fact it is logical that several of them that came with Peter, remained at the doorway at first. Therefore the unbelieving Jews were the Christ following Jews who did not Believe that GOD would saved the Cornelius and his family to the same degree that He saved them.
Heremeutical yoga. You are stretching the text, here. The verse you quote about unbelievers that you would want to make applies to unbelieving Jews says,
"With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord"

Is this true of the Jewish brethren who went with Peter to whom Peter said they had 'received the Holy Ghost the same as we'. Would you say they hadn't heard God? What about Jesus teaching that 'My sheep hear my voice.' Why would these people be following Jesus if they would not hear God?

Acts 10:45-47 (GWT)
45 All the believers who were circumcised and who had come with Peter were amazed that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured on people who were not Jewish.
46 They heard these non-Jewish people speaking in other languages and praising God. Then Peter said,

47 “No one can refuse to baptize these people with water. They have received the Holy Spirit in the same way that we did.”
[/quote]
Therefore that means that at the house of Cornelius there also had to be the Mighty Wind, the Tongues of Fire,
Why do you use this loosey dynamic equivalence translation when discussing matters of doctrine? Formal equivalence is better if you are going to make points off the turn of phrase in the text.

The KJV of Acts 10:45 says, "Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?"

I remembered that 'the same as we.' In either case, the passage makes just as much sense if there were no fire or wind. Neither is mentioned in the passage.
 
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presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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Has anybody else on this thread had their posting attachments and private messaging privileges removed ? Wondering why this has happened ? Surely not for my views one would hope ?
If I post in chrome, when it posts, I removes carriage returns and sometimes spaces at ends of sentences. So I now post in I.E., but the last time, some of the carriage returns were lost. I've also lost a lot of formatting and the forum looks weird in Chrome sometimes.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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Read it again. The fact is, only unbelieving Jews from every known country were listening to Peter and the disciples speak and hearing in their own dialect. The fact is,in Corinth, the majority of the congregation were NOT JEWS, and some were converts from the Mystery Religions.

This is all the more reason to reject your idea that unbelieving Jews had to be present to speak in tongues. After addressing former pagans, Paul lists manifestations of the Spirit that the Spirit might gift them with, including speaking in tongues. And he explains how to properly use this genuine gift in I Corinthians 14, including instructions on interpretation of what was spoken in tongues so that the church might be edified.

There is no mention of pagan or imitation tongues in I Corinthians at all.