Tongues Again???

peacefulbeliever · Jan 2, 2017

VCO said:

How is it you cannot grasp that is it has nothing to do with WHO was there . . . the "just as we have" . . . pertains to receiving the gift of holy spirit and manifesting it in the same manner as those that were filled on the day of Pentecost.

zone · Jan 2, 2017

it's just staggering that this is even a thing!
gibberish!!
awful!

VCO · Jan 2, 2017

peacefulbeliever said:

You forget, I pointed out several times on this thread already, that Corinth had both the counterfeit of Tongues that many of the converts from the Mystery Religions had previously been involved with, and they had the Genuine TONGUES where unbelieving Jews heard in their own dialektos. THEIR PROBLEM and those today from your side of the fence, is they thought both were the same thing, and they could not tell the difference. Hence, in my opinion, the Charismatics and Pentecostals are nothing more than a Modern Day Corinthian Church, complete with all the confusion they had.

Do you see now why I do NOT like discussing this subject with any Charismatics or Pentecostals? The Discussion goes NO WHERE, and always ends up in a complete Stalemate, usually with one of more from their side getting mad at me and calling me names. PLUS, I have been involved in well over a hundred of these discussions with them, since the EARLY 80's; and I have not heard a single NEW argument in over twenty years. AND NOT A single argument from those wanting to debate me, HAS EVER COME CLOSE TO CAUSING ME TO EVEN BEGIN TO QUESTION WHAT I KNOW TO BE THE TRUTH. My opinion is you guys have fallen for a Counterfeit of the Genuine Miracle Sign of TONGUES, just like the Corinthian Church did.

SO if any other Charismatics or Pentecostals want to try to debate me, let's FORGET ABOUT IT, and go back to loving each other like Christian Brothers and Sisters are supposed to do. You want to waste time on your Charismatic thing, it does not bother me one bit. That is between you and GOD, and has absolutely nothing to do with me.

THEREFORE, I am offering to "AGREE TO DISAGREE", up front, with anyone else wanting to debate me, who wants to Believe in the Charismatic experience; and that way, WE BOTH WILL NOT WASTE ANY MORE TIME DEBATING EACH OTHER ON THIS STALEMATE LOOKING FOR A PLACE TO HAPPEN.

peacefulbeliever · Jan 2, 2017

VCO said:

I have read your post. . . I don't see anything in scripture that speaks of "counterfeit tongues". I see where believers manifested tongues when they received the gift of holy spirit. I see where the Corinthian church believers were abusing the manifestation of tongues and had to be reproved and corrected by Paul. I do not consider myself a "Charismatic" nor a Pentecostal.

I am not mad at you and I have not called you names. Am I discussing this with you in order to get you to question your belief? Nope - you can believe what you want just as I can. I believe that every believer can manifest the gift of holy spirit, you say that I am wrong but scripture says that every believer can manifest the gift of holy spirit: But the manifestation of the spirit is given to every man to profit withal. Again, I do not read where the Corinthian church had counterfeit tongues.

Okay . . . you are right . . . these kind of discussions end up in a stalemate - so I agree to disagree. BTW, I love each and everyone of my brothers and sisters in Christ whether they manifest the gift of holy spirit or not . . .

VCO · Jan 2, 2017

peacefulbeliever said:

Thank you, Agreeing to Disagree, does KEEP THE PEACE. I will answer that above post to show you how firmly planted I am in my Beliefs, and I respect your right to be equally firm in your beliefs.

It sounds to me that you probably think, "if it is not specifically in the BIBLE, it did not happen", I presume? If that is so, then you do not know that we do not have every event in the Bible, only the Highlights:

John 21:25 (KJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Corinth was a Hotbed for the Greek Mystery Religions and many of them, especially the Worship of Apollo, taught their followers to pray in ecstatic utterances that they too called "a language that only the gods understand", also called tongues. I did an intense study of TONGUES for 6 months back in the 80's and traced the Mystery Religion's Tongues back to at least 400 B.C. back then. As I gained additional information, I updated it, especially in late 90's after I bought my first Computer in 1996. Now just a couple weeks ago I found updated information that they can now trace the Mystery Religion Tongues, clear back to 1100 B.C. The Church at Corinth was started in the Synagogue in Corinth, and moved next door to one of the Member's house, when they were asked to leave the Synagogue. BUT the Jewish Christians were the minority of the Congregation, when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians. THAT tells me they were having more success with converting Mystery Religion pagans, than the Jews next door. Therefore, some of them had to be converted from the Worship of Apollo, which was famous for teaching their followers Pray to the gods in a language only they can understand, as well as some other pagan religions in Corinth taught that too. YES, you have to study the History of the Mystery Religions too, before you can fill in those kind of blanks like I just did. AND I CERTAINLY DID that study decades ago.

Now I am not going continue this discussion with you beyond this post, BECAUSE I KNOW FROM PAST EXPERIENCE where it will lead. You will get irritated at first and getting into a very heated debate, DENYING all the evidence that I present, because you BASE your Belief on your personal experience. As we continue to debate, you will use more and more LARGE FONTS, crossing the line into arguing, while ignoring more and more of what I have presented. And if I did not CUT IT OFF, with a "We will just have to Agree to Disagree."; you would eventually start calling me names and accusing me of Blaspheming the Holy Spirit; because after all, you know your experience is REAL, putting your experience over and above what the Scriptures actually say.

Most of the Corinthians did not even know it, when one day someone relinquished control of his vocal chords to do his tongues thing, and a demon seized control of them, and ended up cursing Christ right in the Assembly in a foreign language, that someone had to of understood. Plus I even documented that very thing happening in couple of Churches, decades apart, here in the USA, and both Pastors refused to believe that is what happened. So the problem and confusion that plagued the Corinthians continues today.

We will just AGREE to DISAGREE!

fredoheaven · Jan 2, 2017

VCO said:

peacefulbeliever said:

Thank you, Agreeing to Disagree, does KEEP THE PEACE. I will answer that above post to show you how firmly planted I am in my Beliefs, and I respect your right to be equally firm in your beliefs.

It sounds to me that you probably think, "if it is not specifically in the BIBLE, it did not happen", I presume? If that is so, then you do not know that we do not have every event in the Bible, only the Highlights:

John 21:25 (KJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

Corinth was a Hotbed for the Greek Mystery Religions and many of them, especially the Worship of Apollo, taught their followers to pray in ecstatic utterances that they too called "a language that only the gods understand", also called tongues. I did an intense study of TONGUES for 6 months back in the 80's and traced the Mystery Religion's Tongues back to at least 400 B.C. back then. As I gained additional information, I updated it, especially in late 90's after I bought my first Computer in 1996. Now just a couple weeks ago I found updated information that they can now trace the Mystery Religion Tongues, clear back to 1100 B.C. The Church at Corinth was started in the Synagogue in Corinth, and moved next door to one of the Member's house, when they were asked to leave the Synagogue. BUT the Jewish Christians were the minority of the Congregation, when Paul wrote 1 Corinthians. THAT tells me they were having more success with converting Mystery Religion pagans, than the Jews next door. Therefore, some of them had to be converted from the Worship of Apollo, which was famous for teaching their followers Pray to the gods in a language only they can understand, as well as some other pagan religions in Corinth taught that too. YES, you have to study the History of the Mystery Religions too, before you can fill in those kind of blanks like I just did. AND I CERTAINLY DID that study decades ago.

Now I am not going continue this discussion with you beyond this post, BECAUSE I KNOW FROM PAST EXPERIENCE where it will lead. You will get irritated at first and getting into a very heated debate, DENYING all the evidence that I present, because you BASE your Belief on your personal experience. As we continue to debate, you will use more and more LARGE FONTS, crossing the line into arguing, while ignoring more and more of what I have presented. And if I did not CUT IT OFF, with a "We will just have to Agree to Disagree."; you would eventually start calling me names and accusing me of Blaspheming the Holy Spirit; because after all, you know your experience is REAL, putting your experience over and above what the Scriptures actually say.

Most of the Corinthians did not even know it, when one day someone relinquished control of his vocal chords to do his tongues thing, and a demon seized control of them, and ended up cursing Christ right in the Assembly in a foreign language, that someone had to of understood. Plus I even documented that very thing happening in couple of Churches, decades apart, here in the USA, and both Pastors refused to believe that is what happened. So the problem and confusion that plagued the Corinthians continues today.

We will just AGREE to DISAGREE!

Yep, the historical background of the Corinth is that it was the center of worship for the pagan goddess Aphrodite, where the priest utter some gibberish sounds, perhaps many converts did followed and may wanted to apply in the church with the speaking in tongues probably to emulate such one for personal edification. I don't know, that not even one here if not I am wrong, no one discusses the rules of speaking tongues as it was written by the Apostle Paul though it already CEASED as of today.

VCO · Jan 3, 2017

fredoheaven said:

VCO said:

Yes, but there were two big buildings right down town city center for worshiping Apollo.

As far as when Paul said the one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; how do think that was a commendation when Paul said in Chapter 10 that ". . . all things edify not. Let no man seek his own, but every man another's."?

Oh, I have pointed out what I perceive to be the rules, which is do it the way the Apostles did (as a sign for unbelieving Jews), or it is just another counterfeit that has crept into the Church.

Sorry, I said I would just let it go. My understanding is it was the least important spiritual thing, because traditionally when Jews make a list, they list them in order of importance. So Understanding TONGUES or MISUNDERSTANDING TONGUES will not keep any one of us out of Heaven.

plainguy · Jan 3, 2017

zone said:

Yes it is zone. And attributed to the power of God at that. A church in Corinth was chastised for their immature use of the true gift of tongues in the apostolic era and yet today, we have a large congregation of believers espousing something that doesn't come close to resembling what was a true manifestation of God's Holy Spirit and power .. nor it's intended purpose. Nowhere are we shown the existence of an angelic or heavenly language. To claim that Paul spoke of it is a distortion to satisfy a heart not contented with simple faith in the promises of God's completed Word .. and work .. the miracle of a heart transformed. This is the power of God's Holy Spirit. Any utterances of made up "languages", and many which are practiced "in faith" is a seeking for something that no longer exists intended to "prove" to oneself what their lack of faith has been unable to satisfy. Be still .. and know that Jesus Christ is God. He will not fail you.

VCO · Jan 3, 2017

fredoheaven said:

VCO said:

I too thought the Temple to Aphrodite was in Corinth, but actually it was in the small town Acrocorinth that was 3.5 kilometers south of Corinth:

presidente · Jan 3, 2017

VCO said:

peacefulbeliever said:

Is there actually a primary source that calls what the pagans did glossalalia? Just curious. I wouldn't believe the gifts of the Spirit were pagan if that were the case. What I see here looks like an abuse of the historical method. Some of the liberals do this.Here are the steps to the method.

1. Have some kind of doctrinal or historical hobby horse, e.g. gay rights, women's rights, Horus worship, paganizing speaking in tongues, etc.
2. Find some piece of historical information.
3. Try to argue that your little piece of historical information is the 'exegetical key' to some passage that doesn't even make reference to your historical piece of information.
4. Reinterpret the passage to be all about this little piece of historical information you have.

You see this kind of thing in ancient near-eastern studies. Someone gets a theoretical hobby horse and wants to read it into a passage. I've also seen this done with I Timothy 2 and the Diana cult. Paul's instructions about women are supposed to be about Diana priestesses. Never mind they aren't hinted at in the passage. Never mind the fact that Paul's argument is based on Adam and Eve and not Diana priestesses. If your only tool is a hammer, everything can start to look like a nail. Go to a surgeon about a health issue, and he'll give you a surgical solution. Go to a nutritionist and you get a nutritional solution. Write a Master's thesis or dissertation on the Diana cult in Ephesus, and you may just want to read your theory into texts of scripture to make it more important.John MacArthur treated the Oracle of Delphi as some kind of exegetical key to I Corinthians. There is not hint at it in the text. It doesn't fit with the flow of argument. He argued that 'tongue' was gibberish and 'tongues' weren't. But Paul commanded allowing 'a tongue' and in the passage, he would speak with 'a tongue' and he speaks in 'tongues more than ye all.' I

read a website where this man had a theory that Horite meant Horus worshipper. Horus was one of the destestable false gods of the Egyptians. But this man thought Abraham was a Horus worshipper, and used historically-based arguments to describe Abraham's marriage to Sarah, a close relative, in terms of Egyptian practices. One of Job's friends, a Horite, was supposed to be a Horus worshipper, too. Making Horites Horus worshippers was just his theory. The Bible doesn't teach it. It actually is quite contrary to the message of the Bible to make godly people out to be worshippers of false detestable idols. The real God triumphed over the false gods with the plagues of Egypt. But some of the liberal and secular folks either don't believe in God or don't believe in the Bible.How is assuming that pagan utterances are the same thing as the speaking in tongues the Corinthians doing that different from trying to equate God with one of the false gods of Egyptian mythology?

So what? If you are inclined to read paganism into early church practice, it has more to do with your own way of thinking than scripture.

What is needed to fill in the blanks? The inability to distinguish the demons behind Apollos worship with the genuine Spirit of Truth? In I Corinthians 12, Paul tells them that they were Gentiles, led about by dumb idols. This was in the past. Now these people have been baptized into one body by the same Spirit He then talks about the Holy Ghost, and the diversities of gifts, differences of administrations, and diversities of operations and the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God. These are from God, not the devil, not false gods, not from demons. It is in the context of these genuine gifts that Paul mentions speaking in tongues, prophesying, etc. He makes no reference to false demonic tongues in the whole book.

VCO said this stuff at the beginning of the thread. This is rather iirritating. He bases his belief on irrationally eisegeting paganism into holy texts of scripture. I can't recall anyone calling him a name in the thread. I did tell him the idea that the speaking in tongues in I Corinthians 14 was pagan tongues is worse less than manure, since manure had some agricultural value. I never attacked him personally. I did attack the wicked idea.Jesus had a severe warning for those who would attribute work done by the Spirit of God to Beelzebub.

What I did was specifically address what he presented, and he blocked me. No one attacks him. It's like he covers his ears and won't hear. It is irrational and illogical to assume that, just because there were Apollos worshippers in Corinth, that the Corinthians were engaging in Apollos-worship type activities in church, unless there is some evidence to support it. THe presence of the Apollos temple is not proof. Some surface similarities between speaking in tongues in I Corinthians, which is a gift of the Spirit, and some practices of pagans does not prove the Corinthians were involved in paganism. For those of us who1. Believe the Bible is inspired by God2. Paul was a faithful messenger of the Gospel3. Believe there is a real difference between the genuine God and the false gods of pagansit is irrational to assume that Corinthian speaking in tongues was pagan in origin without some evidence in the text of scripture. Paul would have been negligent not to rebuke it if that were what was going on. Paul argues for tongues to be interpreted. It makes no sense to say that he would want demonic tongues interpreted. How could real gibberish be interpreted.

That's totally illogical. Calling you names and pointing out that it is dangerous to call the gift of speaking in tongues in the actual Bible itself, a gift of the Spirit, pagan in origin is either blaspheming the Spirit or dangerously close to doing so is a reasonable thing.And it is not right to agree to disagree about that. It is not okay for you to promote the idea that the work of the Spirit was the work of demons, in the very pages of scripture themselves. That is not right. No Christian should agree with you believing that.

A totally made up scenario. Paul doesn't say that happened. The Bible doesn't say that happened. Saying there was a temple of Apollos in town, something people familiar with 1st century Greek religion could guess was the case, does not prove that Corinthians were speaking under demonic influence.This theory would make Paul out to be downright evil, too, if applied to all the speaking in tongues in chapter 14. He'd be wanting demonic utterances translated. He'd be telling people they were giving thanks well when speaking under demonic influence.This is irrational, and it's actually wickedness to promote such an idea.

Paul doesn't say this was happening. Where is the harsh rebuke? Paul does tell the Corinthians, contrasting the pneumatika, perhaps, of their past pagan experience, with the manifestation of the Spirit, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calls Christ accursed, and that no one says Jesus is Lord but by the Holy Ghost.If someone can take this verse as proof that Corinthians were cursing Christ in church, why isn't equally proof that pagans were calling Jesus Lord in the pagan temples? Both assertions have equal evidence... none. Why would a born again believer be cursing Jesus? Now, maybe the Corinthian Christians had heard cursing Christ in pagan temples before their conversion under the 'pneumatika' (also translated 'spiritual gift' in the passage) of paganism before they experienced the charismata, grace-related, spiritual gifts of Christianity.And why is there absolutely no connection between cursing Christ early in the passage and speaking in tongues later in the passage?Anyway, VCO has be blocked for typing posts like this, which I type to help people not to fall into this weird error which is disrespectful to God. Feel free to echo some of the same points back to him.

I can't say a witch never went into a church meeting and said some demonic utternaces in a foreign languages, pretending it was 'tongues.' Someone who knew the language could do the same thing. It's not impossible. I wonder why a missionary would run out of a church vomiting if he heard cursing in church, as in one of the accounts. The righteous are as bold as a lion; the wicked flee while none pursue. Whether the tongues are real are not is filtered through the one witness who allegedly understood in these second or third-hand accounts.I wonder why a couple of accounts of people hearing evil utterances allegedly in tongues are so readily accepted, even second or third hand. But first and second-hand testimony of people hearing God being glorified in tongues in modern times are not accepted? I would accept the idea that both can occur, since the Bible teaches both spiritual gifts and the existence of demons. Evidence for the existence of demons is not proof that the Holy Spirit stopped giving spiritual gifts.

presidente · Jan 3, 2017

fredoheaven said:

VCO said:

So, what do you think about the idea that the Corinthians were speaking in demonic tongues? Do you think that Paul wanted the Corinthians to interpret demonic tongues to edify one another? Did Paul tell someone who would pray in a demonic tongue that he gave thanks well? I would expect all the pagan Greeks to worship Apollo, Aphrodite, Minerva, etc., all the 12 of the Olympians in their mythology plus a number of minor false gods, and probably many of them would worship foreign gods as well. Polytheism can absorb other deities that way.But I do not believe that the gifts of the Spirit were pagan. I do not think that God is the same as the false gods the pagan Greeks worshipped. There is a true God and many false gods. All religions are not the same. This sounds like the way some unbelieving liberal secular type who thinks all religions are the same would read the text.

presidente · Jan 3, 2017

fredoheaven said:

Please show a historical soure that says that the priest of Aphrodite uttered gibberish sounds.

VCO was claiming that the priest of Apollo would tell people to say 'batta batta' and that is where the Greek word translated 'vain repetitions' comes from. But I asked for eaidence for this and he dodged the question and eventually blocked me.

I have a question. Where does Paul say this was going on? Is it right to just assume that pagan practices were occuring in New Testament churches without evidence?

How is attributing a gift of the Spirit in the first century to Apollo or Aphrodite different from attributing a work of the Spirit to Beelzebub? Jesus gave His opponents one of the most bone-chilling warnings aboutthat.

We haven't even gotten to that. If I am talking with a cessationist who takes a rather sensible straightforward reading of the text, usually our views on order about tongues per se in the text aren't that different. The main difference is that I believe we should obey the commandments of the Lord on speaking in tongues, but the cessationist thinks they do not apply.B

ut with VCOs interpretation, where you don't go by what the text actually says, but you assume the church must have been functioning as a pagan temple, without any evidence for it in the text, it is hard to move past that to a sensible conversation. Some of his facts are right on. The application of the facts aren't rational, and are quite dangerous.

The evidence for this is quite flimsy, since it does not fit the text. I don't see any evidence that cessationist posters on here understand the mysteries revealed in the Bible any better than Paul did. If our knowledge were complete, we would not have these disagreements. This discussion disproves your interpretation. Even the cessationists don't agree.You don't believe that gifts of the Spirit were really pagan practices do you?

peacefulbeliever · Jan 3, 2017

VCO said:

I agree and understand this . . . Many of Jesus miracles and other things he did were recorded in scripture but not every one of them - pulling this verse out of context does nothing to give evidence of "counterfeit tongues". If God does not want us ignorant concerning spiritual matters (12:1) then it seems he would have specifically addressed the matter of "counterfeit tongues". God goes so far as to say that "no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed", and no one can say, Jesus is Lord", except by the holy spirit.

Have I yet used "large fonts"? Nope, but you have. I don't know about using the phrase "your experience" . . . and "putting your experience over and above what the Scriptures actually say" . . . I haven't said anything about "my experience", "my feelings", etc. but have only addressed scripture as I read it and see it.

I see that the responses to this thread have not diminished so I think that I have the right to continue my thoughts also on this subject . . . whether we agree to disagree or not.

I agree that the Corinthian church had a lot of problems. There were many divisions within the church starting out with 1 Corinthians 1. When one speaks in tongues they are not possessed . . . they do not relinquish control of their vocal chords . cursing Christ???? God goes so far as to say that "no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed", and no one can say, Jesus is Lord", except by the holy spirit.

I agree that the problem within the Corinthian church concerning the manifestation of the Spirit continue in churches today. Everyone having a psalm, everyone having a message of knowledge, a message of wisdom, everyone speaking in tongues, everyone having an interpretation . . . and like I said, If Paul were still around today - these churches would receive a letter of reproof and correction just as the Corinthian church did. He reproved them and he corrected them: Let all things be done unto edifying - If anyone speak in a tongue, two or at the most three should speak one at a time and let one interpret. . . . For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. But he never told them to stop . . .

VCO · Jan 3, 2017

I just noticed in that detailed map on post #769, there was a third place in the Corinth City Center to worship Apollo, which was a small Temple west the Rotunda of Babbius, literally right behind it. Therefore, I think it is fair to say the Worship of Apollo was the dominate religion in Corinth.

Cnaeus Babbius Philinus, was a rich architect who built several buildings Corinth and who built the Rotunda of Babbius at His own expense. It may have served as a place where City Officials could address the crowd in the Agora Courtyard. Historians also speculate that if Paul chose to speak to the Crowd in the Agora Courtyard, he probably would have done it from the Bema.

Here is what they think the Rotunda of Babbius looked like at the time of Paul.

The Church at Corinth was not in the City Center, and most likely was in a residential part of town, because the Moved from the Synagogue to the house next door.

presidente · Jan 3, 2017

VCO,
Pictures of the temple of Apollo in Corinth are not proof that the saints in the church were saying giving pagan utterances when they spoke in tongues. The passages deal with a gift of the Spirit, not pagan utterances.

Do you think it is the norm for Christians in India to do Hindu rituals in church, since they are in India?

presidente · Jan 3, 2017

Where is the outcry from the cessationists?

When radical Islamicists kill a bunch of people, certain individuals will ask where are the public condemnations of such acts from the 'moderates' within their religion?

I'm wondering, where is the outcry from the cessationists on the forum when someone tries to paint the gifts of the Spirit, in the Bible as being from the Devil.

VCO has either moderated his view or explained it more fully, that he thinks the Corinthians had a mix of genuine and pagan activities in their church when it comes to speaking in tongues. But he hasn't presented any evidence that demonic speaking in tongues actually occurred in the church. Paul only addresses the real gift.

He did quote John MaArthur, who said that Corinthians were speaking in pagan tongues, while supposedly teaching on a passage which is clearly about the genuine gift. t makes you wonder if he has such disdain for speaking in tongues, he is even against it when it occurred in the Bible.

Jesus warned the Pharisees who attributed a work He did through the Spirit, casting out demons, that speaking against the Holy Ghost could not be forgiven in this age, or in the age to come.

Where are the cessationists on the forum who point out that it is bad hermeneutics to assume Christians in Corinth were speaking in false tongues when there is no Biblical evidence for it? Where are the ones who warn of the dangers of attributing a gift of the Spirit to demons or pagan practices?

Where is the outcry?

AlaskanOrthodox · Jan 3, 2017

define "speaking in tungues" i think it refers to just speaking in different languages, so if he spoke in hebrew the russian guy would hear it in russian, the indian guy in indian and so on.

VCO · Jan 3, 2017

I just now found another surprising historical source of information about Corinth. That source is the Jewish Encyclopedia

This picture is at the Museum in Corinth Today. Notice the heads are gone on all the statues. My guess is that is typical of what the Muslim forces of the Ottoman Empire would have done. The Ottoman Empire ruled Greece from 1453-1821.

I have been trying to locate where in Corinth the Synagogue was, and the house next door, which was where the Church of Corinth was meeting, thereby pinpointing actually where they were located. I just found some additional information the gives us a possible (unconfirmed) Location:

If all the historians that I have been researching, are accurate, and that stone with "Synagogue of the Hebrews" written on it, remained where it fell on the Lechaion Road all these years, we may a logical location for the Church of Corinth. When you enter on the Lechaion Road from the north, the small house immediately on the left, just as you enter the Corinth City Center, is where the Church of Corinth probably was meeting, after they were requested to leave the Synagogue. It is the house that the line crosses pointing out the labeled Lechaion Road. That is my best possible guess, but going on what little information I could find it is very plausible. That would make the larger building attached to it, the Synagogue of the Hebrews. One of the Historians that I researched mentioned that at the time Paul wrote 1 Corinthians, there were 50 - 150 members of the Church. So they would have been in the process of raising money to build a larger building for the Church at Corinth.

VCO · Jan 3, 2017

peacefulbeliever said:

I agree and understand this . . . Many of Jesus miracles and other things he did were recorded in scripture but not every one of them - pulling this verse out of context does nothing to give evidence of "counterfeit tongues". If God does not want us ignorant concerning spiritual matters (12:1) then it seems he would have specifically addressed the matter of "counterfeit tongues". God goes so far as to say that "no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed", and no one can say, Jesus is Lord", except by the holy spirit.

Have I yet used "large fonts"? Nope, but you have. I don't know about using the phrase "your experience" . . . and "putting your experience over and above what the Scriptures actually say" . . . I haven't said anything about "my experience", "my feelings", etc. but have only addressed scripture as I read it and see it.

I see that the responses to this thread have not diminished so I think that I have the right to continue my thoughts also on this subject . . . whether we agree to disagree or not.

I agree that the Corinthian church had a lot of problems. There were many divisions within the church starting out with 1 Corinthians 1. When one speaks in tongues they are not possessed . . . they do not relinquish control of their vocal chords . cursing Christ???? God goes so far as to say that "no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed", and no one can say, Jesus is Lord", except by the holy spirit.

I agree that the problem within the Corinthian church concerning the manifestation of the Spirit continue in churches today. Everyone having a psalm, everyone having a message of knowledge, a message of wisdom, everyone speaking in tongues, everyone having an interpretation . . . and like I said, If Paul were still around today - these churches would receive a letter of reproof and correction just as the Corinthian church did. He reproved them and he corrected them: Let all things be done unto edifying - If anyone speak in a tongue, two or at the most three should speak one at a time and let one interpret. . . . For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all churches of the saints. But he never told them to stop . . .

I know, but the vast majority of those who INSISTED on debating me in the past, followed that same pattern ever escalating ANGER, that I discribed.

We absolutely believe that verse is Paul responding to a KNOWN and REPORTED Problem in Corinth. Most likely it was someone in leadership writing Paul, describing all the problems the Church was having, and asking Paul to help straighten out the MESS they were in.

samuel23 · Jan 3, 2017

I think when Paul wrote to Corinth it was the first mention in the bible of a tongue that came to be called the "unknown" tongue because it was not known to be any human language. The tongues at Pentecost and Samaria, and Cornelius house were all know languages, but not known to the speakers. It is very important to separate these two supernatural languages, one was known languages given to believers, who in the natural did not of themselves know how to speak those languages. The other is a language that no man understands but that God understands. The speaking in tongues that Pentecostals do today is mostly speaking in the tongue known only to God. Because no man knows what is being said, this opens the door for just about anyone who wants to, to pretend to speak in a tongue when they are not really being given the tongue from God. There really is a gift of the tongue that only God understands, however in the Pentecostal movement it has been faked so much so that the credibility for it has been lost.

Tongues Again???

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AlaskanOrthodox

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